Virginia is out of control

[loflyby]

Nope. Those $1000 fees are for the Class 1 misdemeanor offenses (Driving on Suspended O/L, Reckless, DUI Etc) Those offenses required a court appearance and a lawyer anyway. Simple speeding tickets are not affected by this law. So the courts will be no more backed up than normal.

So 20 mph over is a Class 1 misdemeanor requiring an attorney?

 

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving. No leeway unless the officer is willing to reduce the speed. You can go w/o an attorney, but you're going to loose.

[big-t]

 

It will be interesting to see how long this law will last.

 

Local news reported that there were several groups ready to go to court on it.They are claiming its unconstitutional because it differentiates between residents and non residents.

 

 

The local news also interviewed some of the local senators and they actually said they were unaware of what was in that bill,even though they had just signed it

 

...and to think,we elected them

[Francis]

We lost an off duty police officer this morning due to a drunk driver. He hit the officer at an intersection on city streets. The officer was not yet 30 years old.

 

As a community do we want the drunks off the road? Do we want repeat DUI drivers off the road? Is ticket pricing an effective way to keep DUI down? We keep losing riders to DUI. Maybe ist time DUI should be a $ 5,000 fine. 2nd time $ 10,000.

 

What was that officers life worth?

 

Francis

NYC

[smiller]

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving.

Yes, in Virginia it would seem so. Geez.

 

But even for those of you who never speed (and apparently there are a lot of you who never speed, more than I would have thought ), isn't the concept of 'Civil Remedial Fees' as a revenue enhancement policy of any concern to you? Of course it is only applied to the more egregious offenses now, that is always how this stuff gets in the door. And once accepted, how about applying it to 15 mph over the limit? I mean, that's so dangerous. Maybe 10 over. Why does anyone need to go 10 over the limit, anyway?

[loflyby]

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving.

Yes, in Virginia it would seem so. Geez.

 

But even for those of you who never speed (and apparently there are a lot of you who never speed, more than I would have thought ), isn't the concept of 'Civil Remedial Fees' as a revenue enhancement policy of any concern to you? Of course it is only applied to the more egregious offenses now, that is always how this stuff gets in the door. And once accepted, how about applying it to 15 mph over the limit? I mean, that's so dangerous. Maybe 10 over. Why does anyone need to go 10 over the limit, anyway?

 

Yes, and this is exactly what I was trying to explain previously (w/o success). Virginia hands out RECKLESS like candy @ a parade. If they don't know how fast you were going... reckless. Were you speeding? It doesn't matter! All that matters is the perception that you were. Reckless. Fight it out in court.

[dmk]

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving.

Yes, in Virginia it would seem so. Geez.

 

But even for those of you who never speed (and apparently there are a lot of you who never speed, more than I would have thought ), isn't the concept of 'Civil Remedial Fees' as a revenue enhancement policy of any concern to you? Of course it is only applied to the more egregious offenses now, that is always how this stuff gets in the door. And once accepted, how about applying it to 15 mph over the limit? I mean, that's so dangerous. Maybe 10 over. Why does anyone need to go 10 over the limit, anyway?

 

Yes, and this is exactly what I was trying to explain previously (w/o success). Virginia hands out RECKLESS like candy @ a parade. If they don't know how fast you were going... reckless. Were you speeding? It doesn't matter! All that matters is the perception that you were. Reckless. Fight it out in court.

 

It used to be that if you were going 20+ over the limit or 80+ regardless of limit, the officer _could_ give you a reckless charge. Now, according to my friends from the area, as of last year, they _must_ give you reckless. Which means a court appearance and probably an attorney fee depending on which court you appear in (+$500 more to the tally).

 

It's crazy. 80 mph is a normal speed in much of VA because anything less than that is rarely enforced. So you could literally be riding along just keeping up with the prevailing traffic, and end up with a criminal record and $1800 in fines and attorney fees.

 

Dave

[smiller]

It's crazy. 80 mph is a normal speed in much of VA because anything less than that is rarely enforced. So you could literally be riding along just keeping up with the prevailing traffic, and end up with a criminal record and $1800 in fines and attorney fees.

Bingo.

[John in VA]

Looks like Virginia is just following the trend of other "out of control" states?

 

 

Michigan:

$100 a year for as long as the license has 7 points (plus $25 for each point over 7)

$1,000 x 2 years for DUI

$200 x 2 years for expired insurance

$150 x 2 years for an expired license

 

New Jersey:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 for DUI

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

 

New York:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $75 for each point over 6)

$250 x 3 years for DUI

 

Texas:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 years for DUI

$2,500 x 3 years for two DUIs

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

$100 x 3 years for an expired license

 

Virginia:

$100 x 3 years for 8 points (plus $75 for each point over 8)

$750 x 3 years for DUI

$250 x 3 years for an expired license

$250 x 3 years expired insurance

[smiller]

Looks like Virginia is just following the trend of other "out of control" states?

Not really. In most of the cases you listed a driver would have to get three tickets in three years (actually four, since one can usually be dismissed by traffic school) and even that would result in a $300 surcharge for all of the tickets, not $1050 for a single offense. For typical moving violations of the type we're discussing in the thread anyway, not sure why so many keep trying to inject DUI into the discussion unless you feel that speeding and DUI are equivalent offenses.

[fourteenfour]

I don't understand the whining. The solution is to drive the speed limit. If you choose to ignore the speed limit then pay the fine rather than whine about it. You have a choice...ride at or below the limit and relax or speed and hope you don't get caught?

 

I wholly agree. I cannot people justify speeding because THEY thinkt the posted limit is wrong. It might be for you provided the road was empty and no chance of anyone else on it but putting drivers at a speed where the average persons reactions don't cause a threat to others is the key.

 

Driving like a looney should cost money. If you want to go fast go to the track, spend that money that would otherwise be lost on a ticket for track time. Don't risk my life and vehicle with your fool hardy objection to the law

[loflyby]

I don't understand the whining. The solution is to drive the speed limit. If you choose to ignore the speed limit then pay the fine rather than whine about it. You have a choice...ride at or below the limit and relax or speed and hope you don't get caught?

 

I wholly agree. I cannot people justify speeding because THEY thinkt the posted limit is wrong. It might be for you provided the road was empty and no chance of anyone else on it but putting drivers at a speed where the average persons reactions don't cause a threat to others is the key.

 

Driving like a looney should cost money. If you want to go fast go to the track, spend that money that would otherwise be lost on a ticket for track time. Don't risk my life and vehicle with your fool hardy objection to the law

 

Ok... let me try a fourth time.

 

The reckless driving charge, in VA, is the "catch all" charge. Meaning, you can receive reckless whether you were speeding, or not. If the officer ~thinks~ that you were speeding, but was unable to catch you on radar, pace, etc., he can give you reckless w/o any other charge. In VA, reckless is a misdemeanor. I've been trying to say here this whole time, that it isn't just about the speeding.

[John in VA]

http://www.vatrafficlaw.com/reckless.html

 

VA § 46.2-860. Failing to give proper signals.

 

A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who fails to give adequate and timely signals of intention to turn, partly turn, slow down, or stop, as required by Article 6 (§ 46.2-848 et seq.) of this chapter.

 

 

 

§ 46.2-857. Driving two abreast in a single lane - A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who drives any motor vehicle, including any motorcycle, so as to be abreast of another vehicle in a lane designed for one vehicle, or drives any motor vehicle, including any motorcycle, so as to travel abreast of any other vehicle traveling in a lane designed for one vehicle.

[BamaRider]

John- is it your belief that taxes in Virginia are too low? Well heck, just cut the state a check for an extra 500 dollars at tax time and sleep better, and leave the rest of the fair citizens alone who think they are too HIGH.

 

I'm not a true scofflaw, I use common sense and it has served me well the last 6 years and 250,000 miles I've ridden in that time, being handed only ONE paying ticket in that time frame. I push the limits but I'm never the fastest guy out there or call attention to myself.

 

But no one has addressed the fact us out of staters get a break from Va laws, as opposed to the locals. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm glad for the free pass, I just understand. And if I was a resident I'd be jumping up and down. But you get what you elect I reckon.

[dmk]

Looks like Virginia is just following the trend of other "out of control" states?

 

 

Michigan:

$100 a year for as long as the license has 7 points (plus $25 for each point over 7)

$1,000 x 2 years for DUI

$200 x 2 years for expired insurance

$150 x 2 years for an expired license

 

New Jersey:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 for DUI

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

 

New York:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $75 for each point over 6)

$250 x 3 years for DUI

 

Texas:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 years for DUI

$2,500 x 3 years for two DUIs

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

$100 x 3 years for an expired license

 

Virginia:

$100 x 3 years for 8 points (plus $75 for each point over 8)

$750 x 3 years for DUI

$250 x 3 years for an expired license

$250 x 3 years expired insurance

 

Those all seem reasonable to me, except the DUI charge in NY seems low.

 

AFAIK, Virginia is the only state where being cited for speeding at 80+ or 20 over automatically gets you a mandatory reckless charge.

 

Dave

[Officer_Impersonator]

Where I live, we have these black and white signs all over the place that tell us how fast we can ride/drive. If we go faster than these signs say we should, we're subject to paying a speeding tax - a.k.a. "speeding ticket", "motor vehicle infraction", "performance award", etc.

 

We can choose to obey these signs, or we can choose to disobey these signs. The consequences of disobeying these signs is that law enforcement has the right to pull us over and issue an infraction. The issuance of the infraction can lead to higher insurance rates. Multiple infractions over a period of time can lead to license suspension/revocation.

 

We all know the rules going into this, and we all know what the consequences can be.

 

Recently in the Seattle area, the local TV news media has been having fun using public records disclosure requests to obtain the footage from the State Patrol's fancy new infrared camera mounted on one of their Cessnas.

 

Every time they get juicy footage of a motorcyclist using cars as traffic cones, going twice the speed of traffic, it's the lead story on the 5:00 news. Then the local citizenry is all up in arms about the rash of reckless motorcyclists menacing our area's roads and highways, and they demand increased enforcement of traffic rules against riders.

 

We can bemoan unfair enforcement of traffic regulations against motorcyclists, and we can complain about confiscatory fines for what we view as minor traffic infractions, but we can also avoid all of this by not giving Officer Friendly probable cause to pull us over in the first place.

 

A speeding ticket is simply a speeding tax, and if you can't afford the fine, you shouldn't commit the crime.

[GoGo Gadget]

So 20 mph over is a Class 1 misdemeanor requiring an attorney?

 

If it is written as speeding then no. If it is written as reckless driving, then yes. But either way, 74 in a 55 is not fast enough over the limit for you? You feel the need the go faster than that?

[GoGo Gadget]

Nope. Those $1000 fees are for the Class 1 misdemeanor offenses (Driving on Suspended O/L, Reckless, DUI Etc) Those offenses required a court appearance and a lawyer anyway. Simple speeding tickets are not affected by this law. So the courts will be no more backed up than normal.

So 20 mph over is a Class 1 misdemeanor requiring an attorney?

 

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving. No leeway unless the officer is willing to reduce the speed. You can go w/o an attorney, but you're going to loose.

 

Wrong. 20 over can be speeding or reckless. That is a common myth in the Commonwealth. Unfortunately, many officers do not realize that it can be written as speeding. So I'll give you half credit for that.

[GoGo Gadget]

These fines are for big ticket items. Not simple speeding, rolling through a stop sign, and crap like that.

 

Compare the regular fines, and Va seems pretty lax.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/courts/gendist/paylist.htm

 

Run a redlight in CA and it cost over $300. In VA it is $100+$67 in costs.

 

Most fines are $30. I sat in court in Prince William County VA and saw one after another who ran a stop sign and caused a wreck get $30 fines. THAT is rediculous.

 

I got pulled over in Oregon for 78 in a 65 a few weeks ago. The Trooper let me know it would cost me $250ish (I can't remember the exact amount). The same ticket in VA would be $65 in fines + $62 in costs.

 

Chump change compared to other states. Maybe VA should have raised ALL fines long ago and then we would not have so many retard drivers.

 

I really think we have many problem drivers, especially in Northern Virginia. I think over all, fines should be higher, enforcement should be harder, and it should be a heck of a lot harder to get a license. I had a buddy drop his bike taking his test and still passed.

[smiller]

But either way, 74 in a 55 is not fast enough over the limit for you? You feel the need the go faster than that?

The issue is much more complex than that and the multiple surrounding issues have already been mentioned in the thread multiple times. Nothing else to say except that if you think the concept of 'Civil Remedial Fees' is a good idea then vote for the type of representatives that propose such things I guess, and live with the consequences... it's your state.

[GoGo Gadget]

But either way, 74 in a 55 is not fast enough over the limit for you? You feel the need the go faster than that?

The issue is much more complex than that and the multiple surrounding issues have already been mentioned in the thread multiple times. Nothing else to say except that if you think the concept of 'Civil Remedial Fees' is a good idea then vote for the type of representatives that propose such things I guess, and live with the consequences... it's your state.

 

I am torn. I feel something needs to be done about the driving conditions, but do not think the "Civil fines" idea is very kosher. I would prefer it to be all done through the courts. We have redlight cameras that are civil fines as well. Same issue. We need to keep these morons from running the redlights, but the civil penalty means nothing has to be proved in court other than that car went through the light. It punishes the registered owner, not the driver.

 

 

But again, 74 in a 55 and that whole "civil fines" thing does not come in play, unless you do it every year and don't learn to slow down.

[Hoover]

+1

 

Amen. I am not going to say I never broke the speed limit, because that would be a total untruth, I ride where I am comfortable, sometimes above the speed limit, sometimes below (OK more often above )

 

However if I ever get caught, I will pay the fine. It's a chance I take when/if I am speeding and I know it.

[harleyjohn45]

speed limits are for everyone, but me

 

that said, this morning i pulled out on I-95 in brevard co. florida and immediately hit a construction zone. 60mph, so i riding along keeping up with traffic at 80 mph. people were passing me all over the place. i think the only speed limit now on I-95 is the limitations of the japanese cars they drive. i really don't know the answer, but if everyone is allowed to make up their own speed law -- look out.

[Bud]

We lost an off duty police officer this morning due to a drunk driver. He hit the officer at an intersection on city streets. The officer was not yet 30 years old.

As a community do we want the drunks off the road? Do we want repeat DUI drivers off the road? Is ticket pricing an effective way to keep DUI down? We keep losing riders to DUI. Maybe ist time DUI should be a $ 5,000 fine. 2nd time $ 10,000.

 

What was that officers life worth?

 

Francis

NYC

 

NO

 

NO

 

and

 

NO

 

If the US was serious about drunk driving, it could solve the problem but it would require the political will to lock up drunk drivers. That will simply does not exist.

 

Telling people they can not drive due to DUI, no insurance, too many tickets etc does not keep them off the road.

 

The only way to insure they will not drive is to lock them up.

 

/rant

[RussL]

What's atrocious about this new traffic law in Virginia is that it was introduced by a Delegate whose law firm stands to directly benefit by it's enactment http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=192571

 

Here's an excerpt from the article:

 

"Virginia motorists convicted of minor traffic violations will face a new, multi-year tax beginning July 1. Led by state Delegate David B. Albo (R-Springfield), lawmakers slipped a driver responsibility tax into a larger transportation funding bill signed by Governor Tim Kaine (D) in April. Albo, a senior partner in the Albo & Oblon, LLP traffic law firm, can expect to see a significant increase in business as motorists seek to protect their wallet from traffic tickets that come with assessments of up to $3000 in addition to an annual point tax that tops out at $700 a year for as long as the points remain."

 

The other atrocity is the fact that they come right out and state that the purpose of this new law is to generate revenue (not make the highways safer). Another excerpt from the article...

 

"The purpose of the civil remedial fees imposed in this section is to generate revenue," the new law states. (Virginia Code 46.2-206.1)"

 

Another article: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/news.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2007-06-29-0009.html

[Bud]

What's atrocious about this new traffic law in Virginia is that it was introduced by a Delegate whose law firm stands to directly benefit by it's enactment http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=192571

 

Here's an excerpt from the article:

 

"Virginia motorists convicted of minor traffic violations will face a new, multi-year tax beginning July 1. Led by state Delegate David B. Albo (R-Springfield), lawmakers slipped a driver responsibility tax into a larger transportation funding bill signed by Governor Tim Kaine (D) in April. Albo, a senior partner in the Albo & Oblon, LLP traffic law firm, can expect to see a significant increase in business as motorists seek to protect their wallet from traffic tickets that come with assessments of up to $3000 in addition to an annual point tax that tops out at $700 a year for as long as the points remain."

 

The other atrocity is the fact that they come right out and state that the purpose of this new law is to generate revenue (not make the highways safer). Another excerpt from the article...

 

"The purpose of the civil remedial fees imposed in this section is to generate revenue," the new law states. (Virginia Code 46.2-206.1)"

 

Another article: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/news.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2007-06-29-0009.html

 

You are surprised that a lawyer who is a politician would introduce and support legislation that would benefit him personally?

 

[steve.foote]

The local news also interviewed some of the local senators and they actually said they were unaware of what was in that bill,even though they had just signed it

 

There's a shocker.

[steve.foote]

Looks like Virginia is just following the trend of other "out of control" states?

 

 

Michigan:

$100 a year for as long as the license has 7 points (plus $25 for each point over 7)

$1,000 x 2 years for DUI

$200 x 2 years for expired insurance

$150 x 2 years for an expired license

 

New Jersey:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 for DUI

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

 

New York:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $75 for each point over 6)

$250 x 3 years for DUI

 

Texas:

$100 x 3 years for 6 points (plus $25 for each point over 6)

$1,000 x 3 years for DUI

$2,500 x 3 years for two DUIs

$250 x 3 years for expired insurance

$100 x 3 years for an expired license

 

Virginia:

$100 x 3 years for 8 points (plus $75 for each point over 8)

$750 x 3 years for DUI

$250 x 3 years for an expired license

$250 x 3 years expired insurance

 

Those all seem reasonable to me, except the DUI charge in NY seems low.

 

AFAIK, Virginia is the only state where being cited for speeding at 80+ or 20 over automatically gets you a mandatory reckless charge.

 

Dave

 

Cripes! I go out of town for a week, and almost miss another excellent chance to take a whack at our jack-pot, drive-by-tax system.

 

I'll restate the obvious. FINES HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE! A $1,000 fine penalizes a 21 year old college student much more than it does a multi-millionaire. There is no equity in financial penalties.

 

So, why do we have them?

 

[dun-dun-dun, duuuuun] $$$$$$$$$

 

Revenue, Baby! It's all about the money.

[GoGo Gadget]

I'll restate the obvious. FINES HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE! A $1,000 fine penalizes a 21 year old college student much more than it does a multi-millionaire. There is no equity in financial penalties.

 

So, why do we have them?

 

I'll agree with that. We should use the Finnish system. Fine them based on their income.

http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000804xx4

[DaveTheAffable]

Look bros, I don't want to start another ticket/revenue thread, but ...

 

77+ posts and counting...

 

[RayClar]

Here's the complete list of infractions that are subject to the "remedial fee", along with the dollar amount of the annual fee imposed:

 

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2007/va-drivertax.pdf

 

In the summary document, it is stated that the remedial fee does not apply to speeding, with the exeption of 80+ MPH or 20+ MPH over posted speed. Yet, the offense of "driving too fast for conditions carries a $350/yr fee for a misdemeanor, or $1000/yr for a felony conviction.

[John in VA]

...Yet, the offense of "driving too fast for conditions carries a $350/yr fee for a misdemeanor, or $1000/yr for a felony conviction.

 

I guess this would apply to Escalade moms (or dads) driving 25mph in a 30mph zone through icy snow and being shocked to discover it takes them 300 feet to stop and they rear-end somebody -- "But officer, I was driving a 4WD SUV that's supposed to go anywhere in the snow!"

[steve.foote]

I'll restate the obvious. FINES HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE! A $1,000 fine penalizes a 21 year old college student much more than it does a multi-millionaire. There is no equity in financial penalties.

 

So, why do we have them?

 

I'll agree with that. We should use the Finnish system. Fine them based on their income.

http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000804xx4

 

Now there's a good idea. Let's add MORE money and complication to this wonderful revenue-driven penal system we have. The results could only be, "positive."

[GoGo Gadget]

In the summary document, it is stated that the remedial fee does not apply to speeding, with the exeption of 80+ MPH or 20+ MPH over posted speed. Yet, the offense of "driving too fast for conditions carries a $350/yr fee for a misdemeanor, or $1000/yr for a felony conviction.

 

All of those offenses with RD in front of them are reckless driving offenses. So the speeding ones you see are not charged as speeding, but as reckless driving.

[GoGo Gadget]

I'll restate the obvious. FINES HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE! A $1,000 fine penalizes a 21 year old college student much more than it does a multi-millionaire. There is no equity in financial penalties.

 

So, why do we have them?

 

I'll agree with that. We should use the Finnish system. Fine them based on their income.

http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000804xx4

 

Now there's a good idea. Let's add MORE money and complication to this wonderful revenue-driven penal system we have. The results could only be, "positive."

 

Silly me, I thought you were looking for an equitable system.

[steve.foote]

I'll restate the obvious. FINES HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE! A $1,000 fine penalizes a 21 year old college student much more than it does a multi-millionaire. There is no equity in financial penalties.

 

So, why do we have them?

 

I'll agree with that. We should use the Finnish system. Fine them based on their income.

http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20000804xx4

 

Now there's a good idea. Let's add MORE money and complication to this wonderful revenue-driven penal system we have. The results could only be, "positive."

 

Silly me, I thought you were looking for an equitable system.

 

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

[GoGo Gadget]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

[John in VA]

If fines (or fees) were somehow based on income, it seems to me that the only documentary legal proof acceptable by a court would/should be a certified copy of the violator's most recent Federal 1040 on which to base the fine. That's wasteful, bureaucratic overkill, especially for a civil driving offense. A criminal matter might be another story, but in that case I could see equal protection problems if statutes imposed criminal fines on a sliding scale depending on a convict's income.

 

Yeah, it doesn't seem fair to charge the 500SL driver the same fine (or fee) as the '78 Civic driver, but they both did the same crime, and there is no excuse for either of them. The whole of society is built on such monetary inequity and will never change because it's virtually impossible to make every aspect of society fiscally progressive based on ones income.

 

The supplemental VA charges on resident violators are not fines (although violators do pay fines) but accrued fees based on the state licensing point system, and they obviously can't charge the fees based on an out-of-stater's licensing point system. The state says upfront it's a revenue source. Nobody is constitutionally entitled to a state driver's license. When you apply and test and are granted a license, a contract is established, and when you rack up enough points you violate the contract and they'll take it away from you, meanwhile the state is earning income from the fees. You'll have to walk or take the bus. Non-drivers will never have to pay such fees, nor will non-violators.

[John Ranalletta]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

Cool idea...means testing for violations.

 

Porportional to what?

 

Would drivers file a net worth statment when they get a license? Would they have to be audited? Can we base it on the value of the vehicle involved in the violation? Would a driver who can afford the payment on a new Z06 pay purchased with zero down pay as much as the Z06 owner who paid cash? Would I get to claim dependents? How about the rich violator who gives a lot to charity, does he get a break?

 

If the 2 Z06s mentioned above, one driven by person with no net worth and one driven by a person with $1 million net worth, both blow a stop sign and each kill a pedestrian. Which pedestrian is more dead? The one killed by the rich guy? Or the poor guy?

[steve.foote]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

 

That depends on which side of the equity one finds themselves. The "recipient" might, obviously, be exuberent, whereas the "contributor" may not share that sentiment.

 

In a financial penalty scheme, there are taker's and takee's. One cannot be punished without creating a gain for another. <<<--- A subtle hint can be found here ---<<<

[RussL]

What's atrocious about this new traffic law in Virginia is that it was introduced by a Delegate whose law firm stands to directly benefit by it's enactment http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=192571

 

Here's an excerpt from the article:

 

"Virginia motorists convicted of minor traffic violations will face a new, multi-year tax beginning July 1. Led by state Delegate David B. Albo (R-Springfield), lawmakers slipped a driver responsibility tax into a larger transportation funding bill signed by Governor Tim Kaine (D) in April. Albo, a senior partner in the Albo & Oblon, LLP traffic law firm, can expect to see a significant increase in business as motorists seek to protect their wallet from traffic tickets that come with assessments of up to $3000 in addition to an annual point tax that tops out at $700 a year for as long as the points remain."

 

The other atrocity is the fact that they come right out and state that the purpose of this new law is to generate revenue (not make the highways safer). Another excerpt from the article...

 

"The purpose of the civil remedial fees imposed in this section is to generate revenue," the new law states. (Virginia Code 46.2-206.1)"

 

Another article: http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/news.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2007-06-29-0009.html

 

You are surprised that a lawyer who is a politician would introduce and support legislation that would benefit him personally?

 

I'm not surprised by the lawyer's actions, but I am surprised that the citizens of Virgina aren't raising a ruckus over the matter. If I still lived there, I certainly would.

[Paul Mihalka]

Just a comment on the thread title. Virginia is not out of control. It is controled very much, but by the wrong people.

[dmk]

I really think we have many problem drivers, especially in Northern Virginia. I think over all, fines should be higher, enforcement should be harder, and it should be a heck of a lot harder to get a license. I had a buddy drop his bike taking his test and still passed.

 

If the goal was to slow people down, they could simply enforce at a lower speed.

 

To me, it just seems like VA has a case of schizophrenia regarding speeding. If driving 80 in a 65 is such a bad thing, then why is it tolerated by the VA state police? Or conversely, if driving 80 in a 65 isn't a problem worth stopping people for, then why does it carry such a heavy penalty?

[John in VA]

I'm not surprised by the lawyer's actions, but I am surprised that the citizens of Virgina aren't raising a ruckus over the matter. If I still lived there, I certainly would.

 

Similar violator fee systems are set up in other states. I'm a Virginian, and I'm surprised anybody would raise a ruckus over it, except for people who have a ton of points already and are stupid, careless or reckless enough to rack up even more. That's the CHOICE people make for themselves by their deliberate actions.

 

"Gosh, officer/judge, it was 2:00 am and there was nobody on the road and it's obviously perfectly safe going 88 in a 55 so I was just hoping there were no cops around and took a chance." CH-Ching!!

 

"Dang, the light's changing. I'm in a hurry. I'll just run the first 2 seconds of this red light and hope nobody's looking." CH-Ching!!

 

"What an annoying stop sign... screw it, I can see nobody's coming, I'll just kinda roll through it...." Ch-Ching!!

 

"On my cell phone cruising in the left lane... Chatchatchat... Ooops, here's my exit! ... I'll just zip across these 4 lanes and see if I can make it, don't bother to signal 'cause my left hand is full of cell phone glued to my left ear. Yeah yeah stop honking at me, idiots! This is my exit!!" Ch-Ching!!

 

OMG... Eureka! ...obey the law and I'll never have to pay a dime!

[Agent_Orange]

[John in VA]

"You think I'm going to WASTE 20 minutes extra poking along at 72mph on borrrringggg I-81?? I've got things to DO and places to BE so I'm gonna do 85mph and get where I'm going!" Ch-Ching!

 

"Mannn I hate this heavy heavy traffic on this Interstate. It's moving ok at 70mph but what are all these people doing out here?? Where are they all going?? And look, this idiot in front of me is only going 75mph here in the left lane while passing the 70mph traffic. C'monnnn move it you dork! I wanna go 80 until I get to the next bunchup of traffic a quarter mile ahead! I'm going to get up on this jerk's bumper and intimidate him to move right... I'll follow him 4 inches behind for the next 30 miles if I have to..." Ch-Ching!!

[velomoto]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

GoGo, your mistake was to apply logic to the inference which was made that fines affect people differently.

[velomoto]

Ya know, for all the whining one would think this forum is full of a bunch of anarchists who don't believe in the rule of law or the concept of obeying a law.

 

Sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for a person who decides to exceed the speed limit by 20+ mph - as opposed to the person who inadvertently gets between 5 to 10 mph over the limit and is ticketed in Wyoming! (AMHIK)

 

For the anti-tax folks out there, consider this a fun-tax. For the rest of us consider this a fee such as one would pay to get access to a high performance track... Or better yet, how about taking some classes and actually burning off that excess testosterone at the track? At least if one screws up on the track, only one life is in jeopardy!

[steve.foote]

 

+1

[smiller]

Similar violator fee systems are set up in other states. I'm a Virginian, and I'm surprised anybody would raise a ruckus over it, except for people who have a ton of points already and are stupid, careless or reckless enough to rack up even more. That's the CHOICE people make for themselves by their deliberate actions.

 

"Gosh, officer/judge, it was 2:00 am and there was nobody on the road and it's obviously perfectly safe going 88 in a 55 so I was just hoping there were no cops around and took a chance." CH-Ching!!

 

"Dang, the light's changing. I'm in a hurry. I'll just run the first 2 seconds of this red light and hope nobody's looking." CH-Ching!!

 

"What an annoying stop sign... screw it, I can see nobody's coming, I'll just kinda roll through it...." Ch-Ching!!

 

"On my cell phone cruising in the left lane... Chatchatchat... Ooops, here's my exit! ... I'll just zip across these 4 lanes and see if I can make it, don't bother to signal 'cause my left hand is full of cell phone glued to my left ear. Yeah yeah stop honking at me, idiots! This is my exit!!" Ch-Ching!!

 

OMG... Eureka! ...obey the law and I'll never have to pay a dime!

This post brings only one word to mind... Karma.

[DaveTheAffable]

This post brings only one word to mind... Karma.

 

That is so sad... my Karma recently ran over somebody's Dogma... and well... it wasn't pretty.

 

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98+ and counting...