Loud top-end tick when hot

[stubble!]

Hi,

 

Over the last few hundred miles my 1150 has developed a loud tick on the right side. It's only there after the temp gauge has reached three or four bars. It's quite loud, even my wife commented on it The motor runs great, other than the noise. It's consistent, not intermittent at all.

 

I did a valve adjustment about 2k ago, and again last night, all were in great shape both times. Rocker end play is good too. I finessed the valves again, just to see if the noise changed at all, but it didn't.

 

A stethoscope confirms, the left side is silent, but the right side is ticking soundly. Hard to tell precisely where it's coming from even with the stethoscope, but it sounds like the top-end, seemingly toward the front or middle. It's not the TB, or the injector.

 

Have not checked the tensioner, but it doesn't sound like that, to my ear anyway.

 

Oh, oilhead gurus, help me. I've quit riding it.

[Ken H.]

Does it vary on or off the throttle? E.g. - It does it more or less or the same under acceleration vs. deceleration? Load vs. no load?

[dcm3]

When you say rocker arm endplay is good, how good is it? The spec is really wide and can give you the impression all is OK when measured, but the closer you can get to the lower spec the better. Typically good is less than 0.005" and closer to 0.003". My R1100RT did the same thing and I didn't think the endplay was the problem either until I squeezed it down to 0.003". It now is much quieter.

[Huzband]

How many miles on your bike?

 

I've got a similar noise in my GS. More of a knock than a tick, though.

 

I've determined it to be the clutch, although I haven't broken it down yet. Once it's up to temp, normally 6 bars, the noise becomes quite evident. With the bike in neutral, a light squeeze on the clutch lever increases the knock.

 

I understand the stethoscope method. I used it as well, but couldn't trace the noise.

 

Be as sure as you can before you tear in to it.

[stubble!]

Thanks all. The noise is in sync with engine speed. I will need to listen again to determine frequency.

 

The end play is currently just under 005, and was last adjusted about 1500 miles ago by me.

 

There are about 22k miles on the bike.

 

I'm going to take another look at it today if I can sneak out to the garage.

[T__]

Thanks all. The noise is in sync with engine speed. I will need to listen again to determine frequency.

 

The end play is currently just under 005, and was last adjusted about 1500 miles ago by me.

 

There are about 22k miles on the bike.

 

I'm going to take another look at it today if I can sneak out to the garage.

 

Sebastian, first off try removing the stinger from the end of the stethoscope (just use the open hose) as that will allow you to better pinpoint radiated engine noise to specific area.. Using the stinger end you hear all the noise, even the noise that is telegraphed through the engine metal castings or other parts..

 

Next try to determine if the noise you hear is once per rev or every other revolution.. That might allow you to isolate cam or firing related noises from piston or rod noises.. (maybe use a timing light to see how the noise relates to plug firing sequence)..

 

The more you can determine EXACTLY when & how often the noise occurs the easier it is to isolate..

 

Twisty

[stubble!]

Had another go tonight. Rechecked valves, finessed the exhaust valves a tiny bit. End play is still spot on, about .004.

 

SOunds great at startup, but when hot the tick is still there.

 

Using the stethoscope without the needle, I'm pretty sure the noise is coming from the block now. There's a resonance in the cat and I hear it there, but I can really hear it at the base of the right cylinder, particularly at the bottom rear where it meets the block. With the needle on I still also hear it in the valve area, but I think it's traveling, I just don't think it's valves or rockers at this point.

 

Frequency seems like it's once per crank revolution. As I listened tonight, I think it may actually be the same noise I've heard intermittently before at startup (thread)

 

So I'm going to call the dealer. I'll update the thread once I have more news.

 

[stubble!]

Again I solicit the advice of the group. The dealer has the bike, and has checked the valve adjustment, rocker end play, and has replaced the right cam tensioner, however the tick is still there. They found that the original noise I linked to above, the startup/cold rattle, is unrelated, and is a harmless rattle in the clutch.

 

Anyway, I need to decide how to proceed. It sounds like although they don't know what's wrong, their next steps would be to remove the head to look more closely at the cam chain and guide, and to check for bent valves.

 

At this point I'm looking at some real money. My alternative is of course to take her home & fiddle myself.

 

One more thing I thought to add, probably nothing but what the hell: When I checked the valves last week, the exhaust rocker gave a nice loud 'tick' when rocked by hand against the valve stems, as though the faces or adjuster balls were dry. In contrast, the intakes 'snicked' quietly when wiggled. When I let a drip of oil fall in there, the exhaust side quieted down to sound like the other. Is it possible that there's an oil port clogged somewhere? Where does the oil come from? Inside the rocker shaft?

[Kurt Snyder]

I had the same issue. When it first occurred a replacement right side cam chain tensioner fixed the problem. Several thousand miles later the problem returned. I replaced the tensioner again but that did not correct the issue. I replaced the whole cam assembly because with a stethescope it sounded like the rockers. The noise was driving me nuts. I asked a dealer/tech about the issue but he did not know. I removed the valve cover and see that the tensioner was collapsed. I experimented with spacers to preload the tensioner spring and the noise is gone. I dont know what caused the problem. The oil is flowing to the tensioner but apparently not with enough pressure to function. I found small spacers at the hardware store with center holes for the oil flow. If I remember correctly the tensioner spring measured at about 8 lb per inch of compression. I think the spacers were about 3/16 each One fixed the problem during normal running but I had to add more to stop the issue when running wide open for a couple miles. That was about 10000 miles ago and I have had an issue since.

 

Good Luck

Kurt

[Huzband]

FWIW, the left cam chain tensioner is the one that needs to be up-graded. The right side is positioned so as to have no long-term issues.

 

.....and is a harmless rattle in the clutch.

 

 

I'd argue there is no such thing. I still think that's where your problem lies.

 

[Jim VonBaden]

FWIW, the left cam chain tensioner is the one that needs to be up-graded. The right side is positioned so as to have no long-term issues.

 

.....and is a harmless rattle in the clutch.

 

 

I'd argue there is no such thing. I still think that's where your problem lies.

 

So you think clutch rattle is harmful?

 

Check with Ducati if you belive that.

 

BMW clutches are not so loud, but it is common and harmless.

 

Jim

[stubble!]

Ok, well the short answer is that the noise is gone, and in hindsight I could have fixed it for the price of oil and filter.

 

So, what the hell happened? After my last post in this thread, I talked to the dealer about my gut-hunch about oil starvation at the right-exhaust rocker arm[1].

 

The service manager, the same person who earlier disapproved of my switch to Mobil1 15w50 EP at my last oil change, asked if they could change the oil. So they changed the filter and put in BMW 20w50, and the after warming up the noise was gone. Even the service manager was incredulous, having a couple of different techs ride the thing and confirm. So I picked up the bike last night.

 

To sum up my thoughts at this point:

 

I think that the tick itself was in fact the right-side exhaust rocker caps. They were not getting enough oil.

 

I honestly don't think the oil choice was the problem, but that perhaps I had a defective filter. The noise came on not too long, about 1k, after my last change. Alternatively, I suppose there may be a flow restriction problem within the rocker arm, that maybe happens to be less tolerant of one oil than it is of the other?

 

I dunno. I'll definitely be listening like a hawk in the coming miles. But right now, I have the day off, I have my bike back, and I'm going for a ride out to the coast.

 

[1]

To answer my earlier question: The oil path goes into the rocker shafts, and then into the rocker arms through little ports between the shaft and the arm. (See top-left of this image, and also note it's about the farthest spot from the source.)

 

 

As most know, on the valve side of the arm, there's a little ball with a flat-capped socket on it that makes contact with the valve end. The oil flows out through the ball to lubricate the cap. On the right exhaust side, mine was dry enough to tick loudly when moved by hand.

[T__]

Sebastian, thanks for the follow up.. I think the elephants foot end of the rocker get it’s oil from splashed oil (push rod end is pressure oiled though).. The noise you heard from rocking the exhaust vs. the intake is probably about normal as the intake runs at .006” & the exhaust runs at .012” (twice the gap)..

 

In any case let us know how it goes in the long run..

 

If the elephants foot end is splash oiled it could be oil type or additive related as some oil’s cling much better than others so those make poor splash oiling type oil’s… The old John Deere 2 cylinder tractors come to mind here.. The valve train on most of those are splash oiled & some highly linked clinging type motor oil’s will not splash enough to keep them oiled properly so they start squeaking after a while.. A change to a cheap older formula oil will usually quiet them down..

 

I would be surprised if it (your noise) were all related to the Mobil 1 but would not be totally astonished if it was.. Lots of people run that same Mobil 1 & yours is the first complaint (at least that I have heard) ..

 

Twisty

[stubble!]

Thanks. Yeah, I could certainly be wrong about my description of the elephant's foot (that's an apt name) above. I've been _assuming_ it was lubed internally, but that's all.

 

I feel pretty certain that the tick it made when moved by hand was coming from the foot compressing against the ball. When I noticed it, I had both covers off, and the right exhaust was the only one that was unique, the other three rockers made a quiet, oily "snick". A drop of oil worked into the sockets made it sound like the others.

 

Guess I just have a sensitive one. Just got back from a quick 100mi loop down and up the coast with my John Deere. It sounds like it used to, which is to say plenty of valvetrain noise typical of a boxer. After over a month off, it was sure a gorgeous ride, and she remains a fine riding machine.

[Ken H.]

[hijack]

Where did you ge the neat drawing?

[/hijack]

[stubble!]

[hijack]

Where did you ge the neat drawing?

[/hijack]

The BMW repair manual, p 11.14. The CD came with the bike, which was nice cause it's not cheap! Depending on your feelings for such things, ebay might be useful.

[T__]

[hijack]

Where did you ge the neat drawing?

[/hijack]

 

In the BMW repair manual (Next to this one)

 

Twisty

[T__]

[hijack]

Where did you ge the neat drawing?

[/hijack]

The BMW repair manual, p 11.14. The CD came with the bike, which was nice cause it's not cheap! Depending on your feelings for such things, ebay might be useful.

 

 

Sebastian, didn't think you were here.. Sorry for posting over you as you wern't showing there when I started..

 

Twisty

[teeweed]

My 2000 R1100RT has developed a ticking noise much the same. I changed oil to Moble One 10W-30. 300 miles later the ticking started and has become louder. I'm changing the oil to bmw 20W-50 tomorrow hoping the noise goes away. teeweed

[Stan Walker]

10W-30

 

Too light for an air cooled / oil cooled motor IMHO. If you feel the need to run Mobil One, at least run 15W50 EP.

 

Stan

[teeweed]

Thanks for the info. Update on my ticking noise. I changed oil changed to BMW 20-50 and the ticking has completly gone away. Also along with the ticking, I began to noticed the engine back fired more than it use to when I throttled down, and that has stopped also. I used this same weight on Moble One in my GSX1100G and it worked great. I hope I didn't cause any wear on the motor. teeweed