Disappointing Nikwax Results?

[Mike O]

A bit of background is in order. I purchased a BMW 3-Phase jacket (now discontinued) which is offered with the following characteristics:

 

1. Main Jacket constructed of Cordura 500 fabric - some venting but NOT advertised as water repellent (or water proof for that matter)

2. Internal removable liner

3. External water proof jacket.

 

While the external water proof jacket works great, I was looking to add water repellency to the jacket (on those occasions where I didn't want to stop and put the external water proof jacket). After some research I read several times that the benefits of Nikwax would provide the water proof characteristics I desired (I even called Aerostitch since they also recommended the treatment for the Darien pants I own).

 

So I washed the BMW jacket with a mild detergent (to remove dirt, insects and the like), rinsed it twice and then following the directions on the Nikwax TX Direct Wash-in Repellent product (in a front load washer) washed the jacket, allowed it to dry...and washed it a SECOND time with a second application and let it air dry again.

 

Today, I had the opportunity to test the end result, and quite frankly I'm disappointed. Riding my RT through less than 5 miles of a medium size rain storm, several portions of the exposed jacket (shoulders, lower arms) soaked through.

 

Having read such great results on Roadcrafter suits and from Nikwax claims, I had great expectations than what I achieved. While I didn't expect complete water proof characteristics, I did expect to stay dry in a shower of only 5 miles.

 

I'm sure the oracle here can shed some light on what I may have done wrong or that my expectations were unrealistic. None the less, I've got a very clean jacket at the moment, but will likely go back to using the external jacket in the future.

 

Thoughts?

 

Mike O

[jakfrost]

Well glad to hear it might not be just me...or I simply screwed up the procedure.

 

I tried the Nikwax exactly as you did, 2 washes, etc. I was hoping to recover some of the rain dispersal qualities for my wonderful Rukka 2 piece suit.

 

No luck. Absolutly no change, although the 'feel' of the exterior was more 'wax like' there was no perceptable change in the ability to shed water. Wet crotch, yech.

 

So I bit the bullet before my trip to Dallas and Diluth and bought a new BMW jacket and Rukka pants.

 

Guess the Gortex stuff is only good for so long and thats it. No magic bullet.

 

Jim

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

The idea behind water repellancy is to cause surface tension to form beads of water "on" the fabric. Once the surface tension is destroyed, be it by wind, high speed water (riding in the rain) or rubbing on the fabric- sometimes even prolonged contact with water, then the fabric gets wet and water wicks through.

 

I wonder if the BMW fabric's pores are so tight, or possibly coated with some other "anti-dirt" or "anti-friction" coating that the nikwax couldn't take hold. Mist the jacket with water from a spray bottle to see if any took hold. You can try to iron the jacket on a warm setting to see if that changes anything (just don't melt it!)

[Paul Mihalka]

I think Nikwax is designed to improve/restore waterproofing on garments that were built to be water resistant to begin with. It works on Aerostitch because it is water resistant Goretex to begin with. If the garment is not designed to be waterproof, Nikwax will not make it.

[Kitsap]

So I washed the BMW jacket with a mild detergent (to remove dirt, insects and the like...

 

From the back of the TX.Direct Wash-IN bottle it reads in part...

 

"Conventional detergent can damage water-repellency...always clean first with Nikwax

Tech Wash.."

 

Following these directions I've never had an issue with Nikwax not working as advertised.

[snod]

I have used the Nikwax products on my Darien and my Roadcrafter. It works on the Cordura nylon with GoreTex very well. I also use Kiwi Camp Dry. It stinks for a few hours, but not at all after a couple of days. I put a coating of it on all of the forward facing surfaces. It is also what I use on my Triple Digit rain gloves. It really makes the water bead and run off of them. I suspect (as stated above) that the BMW fabric is coated with something that is keeping the Nikwax form soaking in. Try the Camp Dry, or 3M Outdoor Scotchgard. Mike O, I have a little less than half a can of the Kiwi in the garage. You can have it, if you want to experiment with it. I think it is more of a solvent based product, where as the Nikwax is water based?

[Joel]

I've only tried the TX product once on a garment that was "water repellent" to begin with, and my result was the same as yours -- disappointing.

 

I still use it once in a while on my Darien gear, but I'm even a little wary of that. Granted, our climate is pretty dry, but in 5 years with my suit, the only time I've gotten wet is when I got caught in a thunderstorm and didn't remember that I'd left collar unzipped to flow more air.

 

I DO use the Tech Wash product almost all the time, and I'm a believer in it. But the TX, not so much.

[Quinn]

I think the trick may be to dry it in a drier. Maybe it needs the added heat to bond with with fabric.

[Mike O]

Thanks all...!

 

I believe what I've learned from this is:

 

1. Don't believe manufacturer's claims (duh):

 

Experience better wet weather biking. Use Nikwax to waterproof and maintain all bike clothing, footwear, equipment and accessories so you stay dry, warm and comfortable biking in wet weather

 

2. Applying Nikwax to material not originally designed to repel moisture will NOT improve its ability to repel water.

 

3. A reputable garment manufacturer will never claim that a garment was intended to be water-proof if it's not.

 

4. Washing your motorcycle garments in preparation for a water proofing finish will minimally yield a much cleaner garment.

 

Live and learn (at least it wasn't an expensive experiment).

 

Thanks all.

 

Mike O

[DantesDame]

I'm sure the oracle here can shed some light on what I may have done wrong or that my expectations were unrealistic. None the less, I've got a very clean jacket at the moment, but will likely go back to using the external jacket in the future.

 

Thoughts?

 

Mike O

Hey Mike

 

I work at Nikwax and would be happy to work with you on "what went wrong". As someone else pointed out, the first mistake was to use a detergent. Sure, they're great at removing filth but they also interfer with the ability of the TX Direct to properly adhere to the garment.

 

There might have been other factors, but this is the first one that jumped out at me when I read your post.

 

Feel free to call me at work (800-563-3057) if you want to talk about it. And that goes for any one who has had problems. My business card doesn't say "Moto Chick" for nothing!

 

Colleen

[Mike O]

Hey Mike

 

I work at Nikwax and would be happy to work with you on "what went wrong". ...

 

Colleen

Colleen,

 

First, welcome to BMWST.com! It's always interesting to see that the vendors we use follow our discussions, questions and get feedback. Nikwax is referenced on this board frequently (especially as it relates to re-waterproofing gear from Aerostitch), hence why I tried it. I purchased the product at REI and received additional advice there as well.

 

Being there are three folks on this thread with similar results (it's not just me), I'd be happy to give you a call and attempt to understand 'what went wrong'. I'm willing to give this another try if it was 'operator error' on my part (that's why I asked to begin with), and certainly relay any additional experience back to this board.

 

Again, welcome...

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[Warren_H]

I'm impressed that the a Nikwax rep would jump in and offer to help when there's a problem, that says something good about the company culture. I've used their products and so far (only light rain) they've worked as promised with a Darien Light. Now if they would just develop a lightning repellent.

[USAF1]

I'd really like to see your response posted here on the boeard......as I'm sure that there are more than a few of us with similar situations.

 

I just did my BMW jacket (washed it only) yesterday. Had to do a pre-scrub to the really heavily soiled parts (learned this after not getting it really clean the first 3 times)....and this morning (hung it to dry) it looked almost like it came off the rack at the store (except for the well known sun-fade in the colors). I really like the "Wash" stuff and would like to see answers to the waterproofing aspect. I wear First Gear pants by the way.

 

Pat

[Mike O]

I'd really like to see your response posted here on the boeard......as I'm sure that there are more than a few of us with similar situations....Pat

All,

 

Will do. Have a couple of experiments we're gonna try.

 

Mike O

[VinnyR11]

I work at Nikwax and would be happy to work with you on "what went wrong".

Colleen

 

Great service to come on line when there's a problem mentioned. That's too hard to come by these days. Thanks.

 

I just finished with TX Direct and Tech Wash on two Roadcrafters. Very impressed with the TechWash and highly recommend it. They look almost new. I have no feedback on the waterproofing abilities yet of the TX Direct, but I did run into a problem using it.

 

I followed the directions exactly, and the TX Direct waterproofing left a glue-like rubbery residue throughout my washing machine. Called the 800 number (picked up within 2 rings by a real person) and was told to "run a wash" with clothes using normal detergent and that would get rid of it. I ran a bunch of towels that I use for cleaning cars/bikes, using the extra cleaning/extra rinse cycle with plenty of detergent, and there still was quite a bit of residue left. I had to scrub with a citrus degreaser and simple green to get 90% of it off, and there's still a small residue left.

 

Has anyone else run into this problem?

 

Any other ideas to get the balance of the waterproofing film off?

[Todd_Z1]

I had the same experience with NikWax. I followed the directions with great zeal and absolute religious fervor and had the same results on two different occasions. I washed with NikWax pre-wash, soap or whatever it is called, carefully following the directions. I then applied the NikWax water resistant treatment twice over a two day period, allowing the product to dry naturally in the sun between applications. The end result is no water resistance of meaningful measure. I would not recommend this product to anyone as it does absolutely nothing but lighten your wallet. [Rant On] I also would not recommend the Aerostich one piece suit, which is what I used the NikWax on. The main zipper and left under arm vent zipper on mine broke after just a years use and the Velcro has become unusable in only 8 months. When I called Aerostich they told me it would take three weeks to affect a repair. When I bought the suit they were very responsive and sent me three different suits in three weeks before they got it just right. Now that they have my money they seem a lot less concerned. [Rant off]

 

My two cents worth.

 

Cheers!

 

Todd

[Mike O]

I'd really like to see your response posted here on the boeard......as I'm sure that there are more than a few of us with similar situations....Pat

All,

 

Will do. Have a couple of experiments we're gonna try.

 

Mike O

All,

 

I would first like to commend Colleen at Nikwax for monitoring this board. It's a real welcome when vendors we tend to patronize care enough to answer our questions and provide consultation on their products.

 

See the top of this thread for my initial observations and how I applied the Nikwax product. After reading the thread, Colleen responded and I called her on the phone the next morning. I spent a bit of time explaining my BMW jacket to her, the Nikwax products I used and the initial results. Colleen suggested several alternatives to my approach with Nikwax product. She was kind enough to send me the Nikwax Tech Wash, and a bottle of the Nikwax TX Direct Spray In product.

 

- I rewashed the BMW 3-Phase jacket using the Tech Wash product (that may have been my initial problem, i.e. using normal laundry detergent).

- I next washed the jacket with 3 capfuls of TX Direct Wash-in

- I followed this with a liberal spraying of the Direct Spray In product in likely to get wet areas (shoulders, elbows, etc).

- I let the jacket air dray.

 

As fate (or luck) would have it, the next day it rains good. Now I wasn't going to get on the bike at that moment, but instead put the jacket on (and a hat) and proceeded to the backyard. (Colleen thought this was pretty humorous, but what the heck). The jacket beaded water much as I expected it. Clearly one could argue that standing in a downpour and riding at 45mph+ are two different things, but I feel that with this (proper) application, the jacket has the water resistance I expected (I did NOT expect it to be water proof). The next rain we have while I'm riding will be the true test, but this is looking very promising.

 

In addition to this explanation, I also sent Colleen the following email:

 

Colleen, thanks again for your help. I wish all the manufacturers were as attentive as you and Nikwax have been in helping me. I wouldn't hesitate recommending folks at least give the product a try...

 

I'm no longer disappointed and heartily suggest at least trying the product.

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[Rags]

I'm sure the oracle here can shed some light on what I may have done wrong or that my expectations were unrealistic. None the less, I've got a very clean jacket at the moment, but will likely go back to using the external jacket in the future.

 

Thoughts?

 

Mike O

Hey Mike

 

I work at Nikwax and would be happy to work with you on "what went wrong". As someone else pointed out, the first mistake was to use a detergent. Sure, they're great at removing filth but they also interfer with the ability of the TX Direct to properly adhere to the garment.

 

There might have been other factors, but this is the first one that jumped out at me when I read your post.

 

Feel free to call me at work (800-563-3057) if you want to talk about it. And that goes for any one who has had problems. My business card doesn't say "Moto Chick" for nothing!

 

Colleen

 

Colleen does Nikwax work on First Gear Killis. It is not goretex

[DantesDame]

I work at Nikwax and would be happy to work with you on "what went wrong".

Colleen

 

Great service to come on line when there's a problem mentioned. That's too hard to come by these days. Thanks.

 

I just finished with TX Direct and Tech Wash on two Roadcrafters. Very impressed with the TechWash and highly recommend it. They look almost new. I have no feedback on the waterproofing abilities yet of the TX Direct, but I did run into a problem using it.

 

I followed the directions exactly, and the TX Direct waterproofing left a glue-like rubbery residue throughout my washing machine. Called the 800 number (picked up within 2 rings by a real person) and was told to "run a wash" with clothes using normal detergent and that would get rid of it. I ran a bunch of towels that I use for cleaning cars/bikes, using the extra cleaning/extra rinse cycle with plenty of detergent, and there still was quite a bit of residue left. I had to scrub with a citrus degreaser and simple green to get 90% of it off, and there's still a small residue left.

 

Has anyone else run into this problem?

 

Any other ideas to get the balance of the waterproofing film off?

Hehe - I heard Kanisha talking to you when you called. Call back tomorrow and ask for me - I'll see if I can work something out with you...

 

Colleen

[DantesDame]

I then applied the NikWax water resistant treatment twice over a two day period, allowing the product to dry naturally in the sun between applications. The end result is no water resistance of meaningful measure.

Hey Todd

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you said that you applied it two more times?? This isn't making sense to me I also invite you to call me at work (I should get a 900# at this rate! ) and we can talk about what you did and what we can do...

 

Colleen

[DantesDame]

Colleen does Nikwax work on First Gear Killis. It is not goretex

You know, that's twice I've seen "Killis" but I'm not familiar with it. Is it short for Kilamenjaro?? (or however you spell that?) Tell me more about it and in the meantime, I'll take a stab at how I think Nikwax will work on it based on my edjamacated guess

 

Like Mike, when you're working with something that does not have Gore-tex (or a waterproof membrane) you're fighting an uphill battle to waterproof it. Yes, Nikwax will help to keep the water beading off the surface, blowing merrily away, but you're still dealing with an initially porous surface. But careful application of the TX-Direct will bond the waterproofing to the fibers and thereby create a stronger and more solid surface to shed water from.

 

And since this appears to be not common knowledge, here's a key difference between Nikwax and other (chemical-based) products: the waterproofing does not need to be reapplied after each washing. Depending on the severity of use and the frequency of washings, each waterproofing application should last for about 4-5 washings with Tech Wash. I should clarify that this is the standard for REI-type gear, and quite honestly I'd expect a shorter lifespan out of our gear simply because of the abuse we put it through (dirt, dust, bugs, sitting in smog-filled traffic...) However I don't have any real numbers and am shooting from the hip here. So please don't shoot back

 

 

And its late and I'm rambling. Really: if you guys have any questions. We're not a big office but we do strive to answer all phone calls and emails. Oh, which reminds me: you can always email me at colleen.first@nikwax.com

 

Ride safe!

[Todd_Z1]

Colleen,

 

Thanks for the offer but I followed the directions very carefully and the product just does not work. The first time I washed the suit with Tech Wash first, following the directions. Then I applied the NikWak, following the directions. This did not work. The second time, several months later. I again washed the suit with Tech Wash first, following the directions on the bottle. Then I applied the NikWak using the wash cycle. I waited until the wash finished and then let the washer spin dry only with no rinse. I removed the suit and let it dry. The next day, I again used the washer to apply the NikWax and then let the washer spin dry the water out but NO rinse cycle. I can assure you that the suit was thoroughly soaked in NikWax. I then let the suit dry in the sun on a plastic hanger. The end result was no water resistance at all. Needless to say I do not believe in this product and can not recommend it. I followed the directions on the bottles very carefully and it did not work. If there is another way to apply this product that is different from the written instructions that come with it then I am perplexed. In any case twice for an product is my limit but thanks for being willing assist.

 

Cheers!

[Deadboy]

This is just a stab in the dark but do you have hard (or is it soft) water? I have had great success with this product and am surprised to hear of your troubles....

[clint64]

I have had very good service from the product. I have used the Tech Wash followed by the Nikwax annually on my one piece Roadcrafter. I do follow up the application with a short cycle in the dryer on low to help set the product.

[Stan Walker]

+1 for happy with Nikwax results.

 

I've been using Nikwax annually since 1998 on the my Darien Jacket and pants. It still keeps me dry in the rain.

 

As for Aerostich service, I stopped by the factory last summer, I was having some trouble with the main zipper on the jacket. They took the time to replace all the zipper pulls and re-clamped all the snaps. For free. On a 8 year old jacket with over 100,000 miles of wear on it. Hard to beat that for service.

[rdsmith3]

Colleen does Nikwax work on First Gear Killis. It is not goretex

 

It worked for me. However, I am not real big on riding in the rain, so it's not as if I have spent hours doing it.