Clutch question

[PAZ]

Howdy, I have a 1996 R1100RT with about 44k on it and I think my clutch is in need of repair. I'm noticing a little slippage and when I look in the rear wheel well it also looks like the slave maybe leaking. I'm thinking that I can install a new clutch, pressure plate, and rebuilt or replace the slave but I would like to know if there is anything unique I need to worry about? I have replaced auto clutches and axles before.

 

Is there a particularly good service manual that would help with the process.

 

Anyone priced out the parts required for a clutch job.

 

Additionally, I have that common "rattle-tat-tat" on the left side that I believe is the cam tensioner. My cable is slack enough and I'm pretty certain that the TB is not flapp'in. Does anyone have a good source for the cam tensioner upgrade? I have read the many threads on the subject but can't recall seeing a source or ball park price...

 

Thanks in advance to any responses.

PAZ

[smiller]

The 1100s don't have a clutch slave cylinder, rather the clutch is cable operated. What you are probably seeing is the result of a leaking transmission input shaft seal or crankshaft oil seal which had fouled the clutch lining and caused your slippage problem.

[PAZ]

Are either e-z enough for a shade tree mechanic to install?

[smiller]

Replacement of the clutch isn't difficult for someone with a reasonable amount of mechanical experience, although the clutch disk itself was updated in late 1997 and the earlier part isn't available anymore, meaning that you will have to change both the clutch and pressure plate. There is a kit of parts for doing this that will save you a few bucks.

 

Replacing the crankshaft seal isn't very difficult (luckily on your bike you have the 1-part seal, the two-part seal used on later bikes is a little more troublesome to replace.) The transmission input seal will require removing the transmission cover, also not too difficult for someone with mechanical experience. You might even be able to replace it with the cover on if you are careful not to scratch the input shaft.

[PAZ]

Do you have a source for the clutch kit? Do you know if it is a weekend job?

[PAZ]

Good stuff "smiller". Thanks

[smiller]

I think the clutch kit p/n is 21212325876, but double check this when you order as BMW loves to change part numbers. Cost is about $315 at the discounted online vendors, try Chicago BMW or Hammersley BMW. Chicago will probably be a bit cheaper but be advised that they don't have a reputation for fast delivery.

 

Including the seal replacement this would be a long weekend job for one person, if you have everything you need on hand. If you've never done it before you may want to allow for a little more time though. Make sure you have a maintenance manual on hand for torque values and all the details, the Haynes manual and the factory BMW manual are good.

[DavidEBSmith]

The 1996 models are the ones that had a frequent problem with the input shaft being scratched at the factory, causing the seal to leak at low mileage, which sounds suspiciously like what's happening here. You could just replace the seal and not the input shaft - you would apparently be good for another 10 years. But replacing the input shaft raises the difficulty level a notch.

 

As for whether this is a shade-tree mechanic job - keep in mind there are some very skilled shade-tree mechanics around here. It would be nice if somebody would post a picture of what the bike looks like when it's apart enough to get to the clutch so you can see what you're getting into - you don't want to be half way through and having to post here looking for help. I consider myself a decently skilled shade-tree mechanic, and I wouldn't tackle a clutch and seal replacement unless I could set aside 8 to 12 hours to do it, clear half my garage, and have the phone number of someone who's done it before on speed dial.

 

Oh yeah, on the cam chain tensioner parts, Chicago BMW. They have a big bag of them sitting right next to the phone - they don't even have to look up the part numbers (and the have the assembly pre-entered into the cash register so they can ring it up with one mouse click). Something like $50-$60 for the two parts of the tensioner, the crush washer and the o-ring. Just call them up and say "cam chain tensioner".

[T__]

Paz,

 

1ea)--13541341797 Throtle body "O" ring (optional)

 

1ea)--07119963308 seal ring

 

1ea)--11317656922 piston

 

1ea)--11317688629 cylinder

 

Call Mark at Chacago BMW (20% off list price) 1-800-262-9150

 

Twisty

[smiller]

As for whether this is a shade-tree mechanic job - keep in mind there are some very skilled shade-tree mechanics around here. It would be nice if somebody would post a picture of what the bike looks like when it's apart enough to get to the clutch so you can see what you're getting into - you don't want to be half way through and having to post here looking for help. I consider myself a decently skilled shade-tree mechanic, and I wouldn't tackle a clutch and seal replacement unless I could set aside 8 to 12 hours to do it, clear half my garage, and have the phone number of someone who's done it before on speed dial.

Read that again, David is entirely correct. I don't mean to minimize what is involved here, it is a lot of work and is for an intermediate-to-advanced home mechanic only. Read through the procedure in the maintenance manual first and throughly understand what you're getting into.

[PAZ]

Great information.

 

I have worked on VW's and inboard/outboards for years; I did total rebuilds but didn't have the tools to line-bore cases. Right now I'm trying to gather as much information as I can before I tackle something new. Thanks again!

[Stan Walker]

I have a 1996 R1100RT with about 44k on it

 

Most of the scratched tranny input shafts failed before 20k. Not likely to be your problem.

 

I look in the rear wheel well it also looks like the slave maybe leaking.

 

How about a picture? Oil in that area could come from lots of places.

 

Stan

[PAZ]

I talked to Mark at Chicago BMW and he said the cam tension piston issue, that haunts the 1150 is not common on the 1100. Can anyone talk to this?

[smiller]

P.S. As David mentioned there was an a issue with failing seals on 1996 vintage bikes caused by some problem with the input shaft. If this is the case then it may be advisable to pull and inspect the input shaft and address any problem that may have caused the seal to fail. This would require complete disassembly of the transmission and while it's not rocket science it also isn't for the faint of heart or anyone who doesn't feel completely comfortable with the job... but then again it would probably be nightmarishly expensive to have a BMW shop do it all so it's a decision that the owner has to make. Another possibility to consider (since this is an M94 transmission) would be to send the transmission to Bruno or Tom Cutter and get the seal replaced and the gear dogs undercut so that you don't have the transmission out again in another 20k miles when the shift forks give out, thus killing two birds with one stone and avoiding the need to go into the tranny yourself.

[PAZ]

I will try to snap some pictures today and get them posted...how do you post a picture...just use the right click and paste?

[T__]

I talked to Mark at Chicago BMW and he said the cam tension piston issue, that haunts the 1150 is not common on the 1100. Can anyone talk to this?

 

PAZ, both the 1100 & 1150 suffer from the same L/H cam chain tensioner design.. The new parts are really 1200 parts that you install in the 11100/1150 oil head.. I can’t imagine why the 1100 would be any different than the 1150 as far a cam chain tension issues on cold start go.. The original cam chain tensioner on both the 1100 & 1150 use a design that allowed the oil to drain out of the tensioner assembly after a short while so in both cases the same noise resulted..

 

The new 1200 design places the L/H tensioner oil reservoir upside down in relation the original tensioner parts so the oil CAN’T escape while parked.. My 1100 had cam chain rattle just not as severe as my 1150 (the same parts solved the rattle in the 1100 as easily as the 1150..

 

Twisty

[PAZ]

Stan, Here is a link to the photos.

 

 

 

 

web page

[smiller]

Looks like your rear input shaft seal is leaking. This allows gear oil into the boot, which then propagates out of the opening where the actuator rod pokes through, causing the mess you see.

 

Did your bike ever sit unused for an extended period of time? This can cause corrosion to occur under the seals which then eats up the seals when the transmission is put back into service (this happened to me.) If this is the case you may even have a leaking output shaft seal as well. Do you have any oil in the rubber boot that connects the final drive to the swingarm?

[Bob_Minor]

You should be able to tell from the smell if it's transmission oil or motor oil. If it's motor oil, you could conceivably do the whole job in a very long weekend. If it's stinky gear oil, I'd pull the transmission, send it to Tom Cutter and take my time finding a good price on clutch parts. As far as manuals, I did mine using both the Haynes and the factory manual. Follow the factory procedure (it's simpler) but use the Haynes as a reference when you need more detail.

[kiwiaudio]

If your dealer tells you that you need the kit, and the part number matches this:

(Kit 21212325876 $395)

 

then you can save some coin by buying the disc and pressure plate alone if the back plate and diaphragm spring are ok.

Clutch disc 21212325862 $150

Pressure plate 21212325863 $76

 

This disc is the only one available now, and necessitates replacement of the pressure plate.

I did this successfully.

[PAZ]

Well you were right, the bike did sit for sometime according to the previous owner. I have had the bike for almost two years and when I got it there was a mouse nest in the air box.

 

I pulled the lower boot and there was about a tablespoon of clean tranny oil in there.

 

I checked on a clutch kit today at Chicago BMW and he quoted me around $350 for the kit. I don't think that included the throw-out bearing either and I will replace that at the same time without a doubt.

 

Anyone, think of other failures that can be caused by this bad seal? I don't image any because the I changed every fluid when I got the bike and there has been no standing oil on the ground at home or at work.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

As for whether this is a shade-tree mechanic job - keep in mind there are some very skilled shade-tree mechanics around here. It would be nice if somebody would post a picture of what the bike looks like when it's apart enough to get to the clutch so you can see what you're getting into - you don't want to be half way through and having to post here looking for help.

 

[smiller]

Well you were right, the bike did sit for sometime according to the previous owner. I have had the bike for almost two years and when I got it there was a mouse nest in the air box.

Yeah, kinda thought so. It's kind of unusual for multiple seals to leak (which appears to be what's happened here although we won't know for sure until the transmission is out.) If they are leaking I think you (or whoever tears down the transmission) will find corrosion under the seals. Most likely the shafts can be polished up and restored so more of a labor issue than anything else.

 

Given the year of your bike I'd also examine the shift forks when the transmission is apart. If there is any sign of wear I'd suggest having the shift dogs undercut so as to prevent a problem that was common with that vintage transmission. Any good transmission rebuilder will be able to take care of all of this.

[Jim Moore]

That photo is always jarring, even when I know it is coming.

[Ken H.]

That photo is always jarring, even when I know it is coming.

Yeah, but it looks worse than it is. If Mitch had had a bigger can of WD-40 he'd be done by now.

[LanceJFerraro]

I bought a 1995 R1100GS as second owner last summer. He had a scratched shaft as well and the BMW dealer replaced the shaft, clutch and seals two years ago at their expense. Check with the dealer to see if there is a warranty possibility or tech bulletin, if there is, they may not want to tell you about it. If you do replace the clutch, there is a ceramic clutch, admittedly pricey, but if you loose a seal again you just rinse it off in solvent and put it back in.

[PAZ]

Prodigium, Did you have BMW do the dis-assembly or did you bring the tranny in and they worked on it? I'm thinking that the leaks are the result of it sitting too long by the previous owner.

 

The pictures before are pretty scary but I can still see the beauty within the mess. It looks like something out of the movie Terminator.

 

Additionally, what am I looking at for cost on the shift dogs. What exactly is the issue that comes-up? I'm thinking that if I have that procedure done then I they will naturally put in new seals front and back?

 

I really appreciate all the responses thus far...

[Boffin]

.

 

I checked on a clutch kit today at Chicago BMW and he quoted me around $350 for the kit. I don't think that included the throw-out bearing either and I will replace that at the same time without a doubt.

 

The throwout bearing is integral to the clutch slave cylinder and cannot be replaced independantly. The good news is that the slave cylinder can be replaced without stripping the bike down.

 

Andy

[PAZ]

Someone earlier in the thread said that my bike is cable only (no slave cylinder) so is it still configuired the same?

[Ken H.]

The throwout bearing is integral to the clutch slave cylinder and cannot be replaced independantly. The good news is that the slave cylinder can be replaced without stripping the bike down.

On the 1150 series. But the OP's bike is an 1100.

[PAZ]

Well I thought that I should check the tranny fluid level and to my surprise it was full...it poured out at least a half of a cup...uhhh...

 

 

I know that I don't need to ask but over-filling the tranny can cause it to leak past the seals and thus mess-up the clutch right? Thought so...

 

Yup...me be rookie...and me be paying for it...

[Stan Walker]

but over-filling the tranny can cause it to leak past the seals and thus mess-up the clutch right?

 

I would think that it would take more than 1/2 cup to cause a seal to fail. There shouldn't be any pressure build up as the tranny is vented.

 

BUT, I've never put that to the test, and I don't intend to start now.

 

I suppose if you filled the tranny oil with the bike on the side stand you could over fill it.

 

Stan

[PAZ]

I changed the fluid almost a year ago and 3k miles so I think it has taken this long for enough to leak past and create my problem. The slippage is barely noticeable and maybe I'm expecting more pull from the bike because my last bike was an 1000 Ninja/149hp/ 425lbs.

[smiller]

We're just deciding how long to let you enjoy the illusion before we point out that overfilling the transmission by 1/2 cup will not cause all the seals to leak.

[PAZ]

Thanks....

[PAZ]

Thanks Smiller...but I like it in my happy place better.

 

 

Thanks to everyone who posted.

 

"Enjoy the Road"

[Jim VonBaden]

A friend of mine filled his R1150RS on the sidestand. I don't know precisely how much extra he put in, but it was leaking at the seams. I opened thefiller on the centerstand, that is when he realized his mistake, to check it and it dumped a LOT of oil out before the level was right. What a mess in a resturaunt parking lot.

 

Anyhow, he got the level normal, and the leak stopped.

 

Jim

[Chip]

I did not think you could get the rear end up so high...

and put some tupperware on that bike.

 

This is NOT a motorcycle porn site......

 

Is it?