I miss my Harley

[BillZ]

Ok, you guys (and girls), I am about to trip over the the local (115 miles away) BMW dealership to test ride a 07 R1200RT and y'all are scaring me about this miss my harley stuff. Tell me the truth now, before it's too late. I am considering trading in my 05 Road King Classic because I want the very best in reliability and rideability. I have a good friend who was a 40+ year vetern of Harley's when he approached Harley about his repeated need for rebuilds and they told him to switch to a BMW or something else that would be more road worthy. Simply stated, HD says that 95% of their customer base only rides between 3k & 5k miles per year and they made the decision to engineer their bikes to satisfy those riders. So, if you ride a lot, a HD is not for you since you will have to rebuild MUCH more frequently. They told him to switch to BMW for better product reliability. So, is this really a good idea, or am I wasting my time considering BMW because they are always going to be breaking down as well?

 

I am in love with my Road King but our relationship will quickly fade if I have to start throwing money at it just to keep it running. You know they say the HD stands for "hundred dollar" and not Harley Davidson anyway.

 

So, what's the true story on BMW, from you guys who are the experts? Should I consider the jump from my HD to a BMW?

[TowJam]

Ok, you guys (and girls), I am about to trip over the the local (115 miles away) BMW dealership to test ride a 07 R1200RT and y'all are scaring me about this miss my harley stuff. Tell me the truth now, before it's too late. I am considering trading in my 05 Road King Classic because I want the very best in reliability and rideability. I have a good friend who was a 40+ year vetern of Harley's when he approached Harley about his repeated need for rebuilds and they told him to switch to a BMW or something else that would be more road worthy. Simply stated, HD says that 95% of their customer base only rides between 3k & 5k miles per year and they made the decision to engineer their bikes to satisfy those riders. So, if you ride a lot, a HD is not for you since you will have to rebuild MUCH more frequently. They told him to switch to BMW for better product reliability. So, is this really a good idea, or am I wasting my time considering BMW because they are always going to be breaking down as well?

 

I am in love with my Road King but our relationship will quickly fade if I have to start throwing money at it just to keep it running. You know they say the HD stands for "hundred dollar" and not Harley Davidson anyway.

 

So, what's the true story on BMW, from you guys who are the experts? Should I consider the jump from my HD to a BMW?

I just recently got off an '07 Road Glide (the best of the Harley baggers) and back on a 1200ST. I don't regret the decision for one minute.

 

By the way, HD may stand for "hundred dollars" but make no mistake, BMW stands for "bring my wallet".

[BillZ]

Well, that sounds like an experienced voice of a true biker. I feel a little better so I guess I will continue on my test ride in Louisville this Saturday. Any advice before I mount up?

 

My wife and I usually ride together, but not always 2up. She has a Yamaha Majesty that she rides back and forth to work when we commute. If we are going on a trip of any distance, she wants to ride behind me and just enjoy the ride. We are looking at the R12RT because it has recieved the praise of so many and appears to be the best "all around" BMW without the massive weight of the LT. I secrectly have hopes that she will want to ride the new BMW because it's only 100lbs heavier than her "bike." I guess I just want her to have the confidence to try it and I figure that the RT may provide the opportunity.

 

Anyone, we are both pretty excited about the chance.

 

Thanks for your input. I will be looking for the opinion of others before the end of the day on Friday.

 

Thanx

[TowJam]

Bill,

Comparing the ride, performance and handling of a Road King to an RT is like apples and oranges - you can't fairly compare them as they are two totally different rides. The RK is going to give you a very relaxed, high-torque ride which personally, I prefer in the city. But the RT is a far better handling and performing bike overall. The RT also has arguably the best weather protection of any bike currently on the market. (I owned an '06 RT and to this day, it's the bike that I compare all others to when it comes to long distance comfort and weather protection.) You WILL appreciate the significant weight difference between the RK and RT - with the RT weighing in at about 200 lbs lighter than the RK - although the RT's higher center of gravity may offset this somewhat.

 

Once you get acclimated to the higher seating position, higher center of gravity and the need for a little more finesse with the clutch when pulling away from a stop, I think you'll be very pleased with the RT as compared to the RK.

 

On the other hand, don't switch to a BMW if your primary intent is to get a higher reliability bike. Truth is, a stock "out of the crate" Harley is probably the lowest maintenance, highest reliability bike on the market.

 

I'm on my 5th BMW and have owned 5 Harleys and I find myself going back and forth as to which is more fun to ride. If I had the $$$ and storage space, I'd own one of each as they really do compliment each other - think BMW's "ying" to HD's "yang"...

 

You really can't wrong with either.

 

Just my $.02 (and worth every penny!)

[BigArn]

Truth is, a stock "out of the crate" Harley is probably the lowest maintenance, highest reliability bike on the market.

 

I beg to differ. I had 3 of them, all of them gave me problems

[BillZ]

Well, I value your opinion since I can't "afford" to gather that experience myself. As I have said, I am in love with my RK and really enjoy riding it. I have been scared into thinking that I have some expensive repair bills coming up and decided to shop around, including BMW, to find out if it were possible to replace the potential repairs with something that would prove to be more economical in the repair department over the long run. I know that normal maintenance will always cost something, and I need to learn to do some of these things myself to reduce my expenses. However, I am motivated by many of the other features on the BMW as well.

 

I fell in love with the Yamaha FJ1100 back in the mid 80's but couldn't afford any bike then because of my growing family. So, I waited. Two years ago my wife and I decided it was time, and the RK came home. Actually, I expected to have this one forever and I still really enjoy riding it. However, and this may sound strange, but I am not a fan of chrome. So, washing and "polishing" are not my idea of a good time. I put up with the maintenance of washing as the cost of my being able to ride, but the chrome could be hand painted black with a brush for all I care about "sparkle." I love to ride for the the thrill of the road. Having a twinkly bike means nothing to me.

 

Also, I am tall at six foot four and weigh about 245lbs. The major problem for me has been fit. The RK has been really good to me for a perfect fit. Therefore, the additional height of the RT seems like sweet music to my ears (and my knees).

 

I guess my priorities are as follows:

1. Fit-it's a deal breaker if I can't ride for and hour or two in extreme comfort for both of us. Plus, I have always enjoyed the more upright riding position such as the old FJ would have afforded and the RT suggests.

2. Finish-it must be well made and as low in maintenance as possible (I like the plastic body of RT as a low maintenance wash and wear feature

3. Price-but this is basically the same as a HD until you launch into the strotosphere of the LT zone or get crazy with options.

 

I appreciate your input as well as your experience.

[TowJam]

Truth is, a stock "out of the crate" Harley is probably the lowest maintenance, highest reliability bike on the market.

I beg to differ. I had 3 of them, all of them gave me problems

Well as they say, YMMV. But, my reliability experience with my Harleys has been positive - much more so than with my BMWs. (The jury is still out on the '07 Harleys though and I would be hesitant to recommend one until Harley comes clean on the transmission issue - but that's a whole 'nuther can-o-worms.)

[blkvelvt]

Bill, at 6ft 4in, you will fit on an R1200RT. You may even need a taller windscreen. I live in the Los Angeles basin and the RT has been the best all around commuter/slabbing bike I've owned. Very comfortable for "My" riding style. All riders are different and so are their opinions. I would try it 2 up at the dealer and see if you and your wife like it. It can't hurt.

[UberXY]

. However, and this may sound strange, but I am not a fan of chrome. So, washing and "polishing" are not my idea of a good time. I put up with the maintenance of washing as the cost of my being able to ride, but the chrome could be hand painted black with a brush for all I care about "sparkle." I love to ride for the the thrill of the road. Having a twinkly bike means nothing to me.

 

 

I am with you there, dude. I never wash my RT, ever, and I have no intention of washing my HD, ever, and am in the process of replacing all the HD chrome items with black items. Black Progressive springs arrived today, black exhaust soon.

 

I will say honestly and emphatically that I would not trade my RT for anything other than another RT - it's a fantastic bike. Not enough credit is given to the front suspension - there is nothing else on the market that even comes close. It's awesome. I know price wise you get a lot for your money with an FJR and the new Connie, but if I had to get a new touring bike, price would not be my first consideration, not even close second. As for the small and decreasing body of dealers, it's a fact of life, and it will get worse before it gets better, if it ever gets better at all. Buy a manual, and get a good internet/phone source of OEM parts. It's not rocket science.

 

I think there is no way you could go wrong moving from an RK to an RT. I can't speak for the 2 up aspects as I ride with the Lone Wolf MC.

[onedae]

I've had many Harleys and BMW's. Whoever told you that BMW's are more reliable and/or easier to maintain doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Both are great bikes. BUT, modern Harleys are far more reliable, far less prone to breakdown and MUCH cheaper to run and maintain. And there is no comparison in their dealer network - Harley's is FAR better.

The Road King is a much different animal than the RT - and what you prefer is going to be a function of how you like to ride. If you are a go fast, sporty rider, the RT is far better; if you are more laid back, the Road King will put smiles on your face. Both are very comfortable - to me the RT is much more versatile.

BUT, don't make the mistake of ditching the Harley for the supposed enhanced reliability of the BMW - you will not be happy with the result.

[hopz]

BillZ... I am pumped, I just had to post before I read the rest of the replies to your question. If I am redundant, all over again, I apologize.

 

HD requiring frequent rebuilds is just plain bogus. I have been on Harleys since 1991. I have owned 2 Road Kings, one Electra Glide and now the Road Glide. Want to know how many times I have been to the shop for repairs? NADA, ZIP, ZERO... excepting for tires...

 

I bought my first RK with 40k miles on it. Ran great, used no oil (ahemmm for your RT people) You could reasonably expect to do a top-end job at maybe 60k miles. Easy job and cheap compared to most BMW shop work- besides you can find a dealer and qualified technician just about anywhere.

 

I will also bet you that your quotes from some guy at Motor company are totally bogus. It is just not true. Period. That is the equivalent of jail house lawyer talk. Some mechanic wannabe throwing some bull around.

 

Now having said that- if you like the BMW- go for it, but by all means do not fear the Harley on the basis you have quoted.

And another thing... go to the H-D shop and look at the work being done. Most of the time they are doing tires, and adding accessories. Very little real repair work. I go to my local BMW shop and I see bikes torn all apart and heavy work going on...

 

Sorry for the rant. I love my BMW, I love my Harley...do not fear H-D.

 

EDIT TO ADD: With regard to your passenger... you have not said what your age range is, and I am not asking. I will tell you that my wife, an in-shape, healthy 60 year old far prefers the Harley over my R-bike. In fact she would rather not go if it involves mounting the R. The H-D with our Mustang Touring seat is easy to get onto and easy to get off. I just put it on the side stand and let her do what it takes. On the BMW I have to take it off the weak side stand and try to hold things steady while she steps up, about twice as high on the pegs. It may not be a factor for you, but it is for me.

[BillZ]

Thank you everyone for all your advice and comments. I really appreciate everyone for taking the time to throw in on this one. I am planning on taking the ride tomorrow and at least I will be able to say, "I rode a BMW once." I am afraid that I will fall in love with the RT and my Road King Classic will be traded. But I am going to try it and see if it fits my 6'4" tall frame. Comfort has got to be #1 on my list. Well, thanks everyone. By the way, I can tell you that I haven't found any other group so willing to offer advice about Harley's in my internet wanderings. Thanx

[David]

By the way, I can tell you that I haven't found any other group so willing to offer advice about Harley's in my internet wanderings. Thanx

 

That's because we've worked very hard to develop a culture here that's less brand-loyal and more truth-loyal. It pisses off the brand-loyal people "who can't handle the truth," but in the end we sleep better.

 

Nobody on the planet knows and recites the truth about BMW motorcycles like we do. We generally love 'em, but hate parts of the experience.

 

We work hard at doling out objective advice.

[BillZ]

Thanx for sharing the truth, even when it's less than popular.

[TowJam]

By the way, I can tell you that I haven't found any other group so willing to offer advice about Harley's in my internet wanderings. Thanx

 

That's because we've worked very hard to develop a culture here that's less brand-loyal and more truth-loyal. It pisses off the brand-loyal people "who can't handle the truth," but in the end we sleep better.

 

Nobody on the planet knows and recites the truth about BMW motorcycles like we do. We generally love 'em, but hate parts of the experience.

 

We work hard at doling out objective advice.

Just to add... A lot of BMW owners on this board have had Harley ownership experience and therefore can make educated and realistic comparisons. On the other hand, some of the most vocal (and obnoxious) HD proponents on the Harley discussion boards have never ridden anything but Harleys and yet love to engage in virtual pissing contests about other brands.

 

You'll also find a number of us from this board also frequenting the HDforums, harley-davidsonforums, etc. I refer to this as "just keeping it real"

[BigArn]

Truth is, a stock "out of the crate" Harley is probably the lowest maintenance, highest reliability bike on the market.

I beg to differ. I had 3 of them, all of them gave me problems

Well as they say, YMMV. But, my reliability experience with my Harleys has been positive - much more so than with my BMWs. (The jury is still out on the '07 Harleys though and I would be hesitant to recommend one until Harley comes clean on the transmission issue - but that's a whole 'nuther can-o-worms.)

 

73,540 miles on my RT. Only problem, broken clutch cable.

75 Sportster, broken trans, broken starter drive gear (5) times

84 FXRS, broken ignition module, broken lifter, and trans work

96 Road King, broken shifter arm, and the bike didn't even have 10,000 miles on it.

[TowJam]

75 Sportster, broken trans, broken starter drive gear (5) times

84 FXRS, broken ignition module, broken lifter, and trans work

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I'm referring to modern day (TwinCam) Harleys - not relics.

 

96 Road King, broken shifter arm, and the bike didn't even have 10,000 miles on it.

'06 1200GS with a fried starter - left me stranded beside the road. Less than 600 miles on it.

[TampaJim]

Another BMW/Harley rider here. My experience has been that Harley is more reliable than BMW. Had a 04 RT for almost 3 years and 33k miles. Experienced $2,800 in warranty repairs (electrical and rear end) during the first 10k but no problems thereafter. Have 06 and 07 Harley's for a total of 23k and no issues at all, except the transmission noises mentioned by TowJam and that went away after 2,500 miles and a change to synthetic oil.

 

I traded the RT for a Road Glide because I just could not get comfortable on trips and because of the thin BMW dealer network. The RT is more versatile and has many advantages over the HD but in the end I am more satisfied with the Harley.

[Don M]

I don't want a Harley 'cause then I'd have to buy a whole NEW COSTUME!!!!

Never thought of my Rukka gear and full face helmet as a costume till I asked a guy who was having his new R1200RT serviced how he liked his bike. He told me that he loved the bike but was having trouble getting use to a full face helmet...said he missed the half helmet he wore when he had his Harley....I'm not making this up.

[iclick]

Ok, you guys (and girls), I am about to trip over the the local (115 miles away) BMW dealership to test ride a 07 R1200RT and y'all are scaring me about this miss my harley stuff. Tell me the truth now, before it's too late. I am considering trading in my 05 Road King Classic because I want the very best in reliability and rideability. I have a good friend who was a 40+ year vetern of Harley's when he approached Harley about his repeated need for rebuilds and they told him to switch to a BMW or something else that would be more road worthy. Simply stated, HD says that 95% of their customer base only rides between 3k & 5k miles per year and they made the decision to engineer their bikes to satisfy those riders. So, if you ride a lot, a HD is not for you since you will have to rebuild MUCH more frequently. They told him to switch to BMW for better product reliability. So, is this really a good idea, or am I wasting my time considering BMW because they are always going to be breaking down as well?

 

I am in love with my Road King but our relationship will quickly fade if I have to start throwing money at it just to keep it running. You know they say the HD stands for "hundred dollar" and not Harley Davidson anyway.

 

So, what's the true story on BMW, from you guys who are the experts? Should I consider the jump from my HD to a BMW?

 

I think you might get some useful input about Harley durability on www.hdforums.com/forumid_10/tt.htm (touring).

 

I put 106k on my '96 Road King before trading it in, and it ran perfect with no loss of compression or increased oil consumption compared to new. It's still running at 110k with its happy new owner. I replaced one seal and the clutch plates in the nine years I owned it. Also replaced lifters, primary chain, and stator as a precaution during that time, although none had failed. That was it, other than maintenance, and neither the heads nor valve covers were ever removed from that bike. It even still has the original belt on it. I have several friends with 60-80k miles on Twin Cams and they have had no problems, although one had his tensioners replaced.

 

Twin Cams require periodic inspections of the cam-chain tensioners, which may need to be replaced at some time. Have them checked every 20k or so. New 96" motors are redesigned and don't require these inspections.

[iclick]

Just to add... A lot of BMW owners on this board have had Harley ownership experience and therefore can make educated and realistic comparisons. On the other hand, some of the most vocal (and obnoxious) HD proponents on the Harley discussion boards have never ridden anything but Harleys and yet love to engage in virtual pissing contests about other brands.

 

You'll also find a number of us from this board also frequenting the HDforums, harley-davidsonforums, etc. I refer to this as "just keeping it real"

 

I contribute to this and several HD forums and find that there are a small percentage of opinionated people who bad-mouth what they don't understand, and like you said most of these have not even owned the other brand. You'd be surprised how many HD owners have owned or still own BMW's. On one recent thread from a question about BMW vs. HD on HDForums the answers were mostly civil and objective, with lots of compliments about BMW's thrown into the discussion from current, past, and even non-owners.

 

I find the same here, and most of these discussions are civil and objective, even when the discussion shifts to other brands. Some here have a philosophical aversion to Harleys and conduct themselves accordingly, and the same is true about other brands for a small minority on the HD forums. In both cases I find these people in a small minority, and the smaller the better.

[tom collins]

i just returned from a weekend trip to the cumberland gap area where ky, va and tenn meet. there were harleys every place my friend and i stopped. they had nothing but nice compliments on our bikes and several spoke of beemers they have had in the past. the same was true of cagers and riders of other brands as well as well as the shop owners. now that i think of it, even some young, helmetless, t-shirt wearing sport biker dudes said the bikes were cool. there are a lot of open-mined people out there, but they are probably too busy riding to have time to post on sites like this.

 

tom collins

04 rt

06 fxdwgli

01 500ex

[BillZ]

Hey Tom Collins:

 

Good to hear you were able to take advantage of the wonderful weather and get some saddle time. That's some really good county to tour and see some cool sights. My mother-in-law lives off KY Hwy 90 so we are out that way quite often. Thanx for the update. We are waiting for the dealer to review the offer we have put on an 05 LT. I'm holding my breath and trying to wait. I hate waiting...

 

(Is that really your name or are you fond of that cocktail?)

[Davitt_Potter]

Sorry to jump in; I haven't been around in a LONG while.

 

I went from a 2003 Suzuki Intruder 1500LC to a 2002 BMW R1150RT, to a 2005 Harley Davidson Electra Glide Ultra Classic.

 

In 2 years, I put 12,000 miles on my Suzuki.

 

In 30 days, I put 3,000 miles on my BMW.

 

In 1.5 years, I've put 7500 miles on my Harley.

 

This is all anectodal information, of course, but here's my take.

 

After the Suzuki, I wanted a bike that was sportier, more fun, and would let me have more fun while riding.

 

The BMW provided it, hands down. Until I started to ride long distances. My 6'2"/240# frame fit OK, but the position KILLED my right knee (which has its own history of problems). The dealer (luckily Sturgis Yamaha BMW is only 20 miles away from me) had some suggestions - ELF pegs, new seat, etc. - but weren't a sure fix.

 

My wife didn't like the high-up position on the back of the RT, either, but she doesn't ride very often - maybe 10 of 1,000 miles on the bike.

 

Then the rear drive seal started leaking, and I started to hunt around the boards for information.

 

I tried a new seating position (the RT had a Corbin that I HATED), and that helped some -- but 600 mile days just made me stiff and sore for days afterwards.

 

Enough was enough. Sturgis Yamaha BMW traded my BMW for my '05 Ultra Classic, and (not unkindly) shook their heads at me.

 

I've missed my BMW ever since.

 

So ... after that long intro, what's my point? 1.5 years later, I still own the Harley. I haven't put the sick miles on it like the BMW, but some of that is work related. The trips I have done are longer trips, which have been very comfortable on the Harley. Cruise control and a radio RULE for the boring sections of superslab.

 

It's nice to know that nearly anywhere you go, you can service should you need it.

 

As far as performance .... yeah. Well, the RT would outdo the Harley in every aspect except comfort. But I have no problem dragging the floorboards of my Ultra, and it's pretty funny to watch the sportbike squids pop their eyes open as the 'grampa bike' throws sparks.

 

Yes, it becomes an oscillating pig when over 80mph in a corner. However, there's a fix for that (TrueTrack, around $400).

 

Yes, the front end is soft and wallows. Progressive springs fix that.

 

Sure, I'm spending money to gain performance - but find a motor vehicle that doesn't need that. BMW has performance, but you may spend $ to gain comfort. HD is the reverse.

 

I want another BMW. Bad. I think. BUT then I remember how much my damn body hurt after a long day, and I wonder if it's worth it. I also remember how much jeopardy my drivers' license was in for the 30 days I had my BMW - speed limits merely become another piece of roadside signage.

 

My point? All motorcycles suck, all motorycles kick ass at some point. HD has a hell of a marketing machine. But seriously, they must be doing something OK for people to step up and pay the premium. Same as BMW. There's a price to exclusivity - and we've all paid it - be it BMW or HD.

 

Hey, if we wanted the best bang for the buck, we'd all ride a Yamaha RoadStars, Vulcan 1600s, FJR1300s and ST1300s!

 

Later on ...

 

Davitt

[BillZ]

Well, my decision was made for me, and I don't mind that at all, when my wife suggested the LT instead of the RT. I was secretly wishing for the LT anyway, so when we got the shot at a really good deal on a used one with only 12k miles, we jumped at the chance. Now, I sit here waiting for the dealership to decide if they want to take my offer. I hate waiting!!!

[tom collins]

Bill: it's thomas david collins. if you mention tom collins to most under 30 year olds, they don't know what you are talking about. in regard to waiting for the offer, the first one to talk loses in that game. however, i will tell you that if they didn't take your money right then and there, that you were probably not in their ball park. i don't know their staff personally, but in my dealings with buying bikes, i have rearely run into a professional sales person. if you don't hear back tomorrow - assuming closed on monday, call the owner.

good luck

 

tom collins

[BillZ]

Tom: You are a life saver. I forgot that they are closed on Mondays. That makes me feel better and I can relax a little. Thanx.

 

My mom & dad owned a little bar-n-grill so I spent a little time reading the bartenders handbook and trying some crazy stuff. Just made me chuckle when I read your name, no offense intended.

 

Great to hear from you. Hope you are having a great day! Thanx again.

[SageRider]

Yes, it becomes an oscillating pig when over 80mph in a corner. However, there's a fix for that (TrueTrack, around $400).

 

Yes, the front end is soft and wallows. Progressive springs fix that.

 

Davitt,

Thanks! Some useful info there.

I rented an FLHTCI to go to the Cody unrally and the spaghetti handling was what disturbed me the most on the bike. Nice to know the cause and the cure...

[TowJam]

Yes, it becomes an oscillating pig when over 80mph in a corner. However, there's a fix for that (TrueTrack, around $400).

 

Yes, the front end is soft and wallows. Progressive springs fix that.

 

Davitt,

Thanks! Some useful info there.

I rented an FLHTCI to go to the Cody unrally and the spaghetti handling was what disturbed me the most on the bike. Nice to know the cause and the cure...

Here' some more info on the infamous "rear end wallow" that affect Harley Dynas and Tourers. (Sporties and Buells have a upgraded mounting system so this isn't a problem and the Softails engines are rigid mounted.)

[SageRider]

[wolcott]

I am still lucky enough to have my harley and my RT. Both great bikes with different missions. The 1200 sporty rips up the city streets and the countryside; the RT likes to get out of the city and stretch it legs. The Harley aftermarket and dealer support is huge. Never mind the brotherhood of harley bikers (actually all bikers)- I was broken down in a lil handy convenience store with a bum battery when a guy on a custom $30K+plus choppper rides up. He asks me what's wrong; I tell him probably the battery (was 2 year-old lead-acid), and he says to stay put, he will be right back. Shows up in a pickup with tools and helps me change out my old battery for his buddy's used sporty battery. Rode with it for 2 more years. He refused to take money; just said to spread the karma. That's what mototcycling is about- brotherhood, good times, and sharing of knowledge- not petty differences about bullshit, toughness, brand preference, income, class, etc.

[HappyMan]

Some of the best people I know are bikers.

[iclick]

Yes, it becomes an oscillating pig when over 80mph in a corner. However, there's a fix for that (TrueTrack, around $400).

 

Did you find the TrueTrack to increase vibration any? Can you still use a jack in the area where the TrueTrack is installed?

[NYC_Drifter]

Police BMW vs Harley

 

This has been around, but I just read it. Interesting facts, but obviously, they don't care about cool. Maybe they should have had a Duc in there too