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This for Ken H. Denver to ban loud pipes


Bud

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See the story Denver Passes Loud Motorcycle Ordinance.

 

Even in this story the "loud pipes saves lives" mantra is repeated by an unnamed motorcycle mechanic.

 

I'm not in favor of more laws. However, not surprised either. Those loud pipes, which are music to the ears of the riders, just plain piss off non-riders. And, since there are a lot more non-riders than riders, it becomes easy for them to get laws passed.

 

Sitting in church Sunday and a bunch of bikes came by. The pews vibrated. Couldn't hear the minister till they went by. dopeslap.gif

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russell_bynum

The ordinance will require all motorcycle pipes to have a stamp to show they are in compliance with U.S. Environmental Protection Agency noise standards.

 

I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?

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Cave Creek AZ has a 80 decible law,It use to have a pic.of a motorcycle on the signs,But AMA Got that taken off,,Hell I think my R1200RT is 82 decibles stock!!!

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I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?

 

That information can usually be found on the VECI (emissions compliance) label (under the seat on most BMWs).

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russell_bynum

 

I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?

 

That information can usually be found on the VECI (emissions compliance) label (under the seat on most BMWs).

 

Uuuuuh....so as long as I don't remove that label when I install the aftermarket exhaust, and the aftermarket exhauast I install doesn't have an obvious "Race use only" etching on it, it would be pretty hard for the LEO who just pulled me over to say that I'm running an illegal pipe...right?

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I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?
Yes. Stamped in the metal, often on the lower side next to a seam or on the tire side of the muffler.
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russell_bynum
I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?
Yes. Stamped in the metal, often on the lower side next to a seam or on the tire side of the muffler.

 

Hmm. I'd never noticed. I'll check Lisa' Suzuki tonight.

 

So...that would be on stock (legal) exhausts. What about aftermarket exhausts that otherwise meet the noise requirements? I assume there's some sort of certification process that the manufacturers would have to go through to get specific year/model bikes certified with their exhaust so they could get the stamp. Correct?

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Be glad they didn't ban motorcycles.

 

Actually I like Denver's approach. It's clear, enforceable, not open to interpretation or incorrect use of a sound pressure meter. Either the pipe is EPA approved or it isn't. Cut and dry. And best of all it doesn't infringe on anyone's ability to ride a motorcycle there.

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Right, but what about us who live here that have aftermarket exhausts that are not extrodinarily loud but do not carry that label since we bought them before the stamp was required.

 

I might be setting myself up to get flamed a bit here, but ... I bought an aftermarket exhaust for my bike to help with performance and to get rid of this huge silver thermos looking thing on the side of it. I knew my exhaust was waaay too loud, so I bought the silencer option and installed it. Yes the pipe on my bike is still louder than stock, but it is not so loud that it rattles windows like you see on many of the cruiser bikes (for example) or these race pipes many youngens put on their sport bikes.

 

These aftermarket exhausts are not cheap, and I for one do not intend to repurchase another exhaust because Denver sets some arbitrary level that is probably too low for even some stock exhausts.

 

They should at least grandfather this in, and allow those of us who are trying to be responsible about the noise to avoid the fines. lurker.gif

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...and I for one do not intend to repurchase another exhaust because Denver sets some arbitrary level that is probably too low for even some stock exhausts.

Arbitrary? Not quite.

 

From the article:

 

The ordinance will require all motorcycle pipes to have a stamp to show they are in compliance with U.S. Environmental Protection Agency noise standards.

 

I believe the EPA standard itself is 80 dB (don't know the conditions under which the measurement is taken), so it appears to essentially be a back-to-stock-noise-level thing.

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skinny_tom (aka boney)

They should at least grandfather this in, and allow those of us who are trying to be responsible about the noise to avoid the fines.

 

I can't think of any reasonable and enforcable way for the above to happen.

 

 

Yes Ken, at least they didn't ban motorcycles as they have in certain sections of some cities (in other states) already.

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Now if they would do something about those damn loud subwoofers in these cages. Sometimes I can't even think the're so loud.....I have a hard enough time doing that anyhow. crazy.gif

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I haven't noticed...do the stock pipes on bikes typically have such a stamp? Is it easy to find/see?
Yes. Stamped in the metal, often on the lower side next to a seam or on the tire side of the muffler.

 

hERE iN DeadMoines...the LEO'S have a friggen decibel reader that they kinda stand out near the street with maybe 3 - 5 cruizers at the ready...pulling the loud pipe boyz over and citing them...when the public "goes public" they spring into action - usually not before they have to as many of the cops too ride the Loud bikes..!

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Let me restate this then. My problem is that if this is to be put into effect, I feel it is wrong to punish those who already have an aftermarket exhaust that is not loud and annoying. Denver's new law states:

 

" © It shall be unlawful for any person or for the owner of a motor vehicle to modify or change the exhaust muffler, air intake muffler or any other sound reducing device in such a manner that the noise emitted from the motor vehicle exceeds the sound pressure levels as established in Table B of this section or, is increased above the sound pressure level of the vehicle as originally manufactured. Muffler cut-outs, by-passes or other devices which increase sound pressure levels, or change the original manufactured exhaust system of any motor vehicle shall be considered a violation of this chapter."

 

Translate this: NO AFTERMARKET EXHAUSTS, becuase they all raise the volume level of the stock bike. Again, I DO NOT like the super loud exhausts either, but I think not allowing ANYTHING above stock level is just unfair and unacceptable.

 

When Denver put it's Pit Bull ban into place, it grandfathered this in as well. Register all current Pit Bulls and after a certain date, any unregistered are illegal. They can certainly do this with motorcycle owners and their exhausts. They could even test the curent owners exhausts to make sure they are not louder than the 80db level before they certify it.

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Matts_12GS

Bummer, althouhgh I don't know that I would expect any other solution from Colorado.

 

Such is life, I'll make sure I visit there before 7/1 so I can still be loud!

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russell_bynum

Translate this: NO AFTERMARKET EXHAUSTS

 

Not necessarily. If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified. That's how it works with car exhausts...you can buy "50-state" aftermarket go-fast exhaust bits.

 

It will increase the cost, of course.

 

Those of us with aftermarket exhausts that are not certified are pretty much up the creek. But...since it was usually illegal to install them in the first place we don't really have a leg to stand on.

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Not necessarily. If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified.

 

I believe there is a process; however, (without putting any effort into looking) I don't know of any companies that have done this. Does anyone else?

 

Personally, I find it dubious that those annoying buzz exhausts people put on their Honda Civics and Dodge Neons pass. I'd love to see some of them getting pulled over.

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I don't know abour bikes, but it's already illegal to remove the cat from the exhaust system on a car, and has been for years. If it does apply, by installing a slip on on the K12S you've already broken the law even before the noise issue comes up. confused.gif

FWIW, both of my bikes still have their stock exhausts. When I feel I can ride better than the bike's performance will allow, maybe I'll change them lmao.gif

For me, the money would be better spent on some instruction and a few track days.

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russell_bynum
Not necessarily. If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified.

 

I believe there is a process; however, (without putting any effort into looking) I don't know of any companies that have done this. Does anyone else?

 

Why would they (aftermarket companies) bother to go through the expense of getting certified? Nobody enforces the law, so buyers don't care that the pipes are illegal.

 

If enforcement became more widespread, I bet you'd start seeing aftermarket pipes that are certified.

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Again, I DO NOT like the super loud exhausts either, but I think not allowing ANYTHING above stock level is just unfair and unacceptable.

The problem is that even without the Denver ordinance, you would likely still be violating the EPA noise standard. It was easier before the enactment of this ordinance since the federal noise regulation was rarely, if ever, enforced by anyone. The passing of this law changes all that, at least it does in Denver.

 

I should mention that I myself don't mind a throaty rumble in an exhaust, but those unmuffled exhaust systems are a bit too much. And along with that excessive noise, the hard-headedness of many of the loud-pipes-save-lives practitioners and their backers probably didn't help matters either.

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When I feel I can ride better than the bike's performance will allow, maybe I'll change them

+1 to that. thumbsup.gif

 

This has been true for almost all motorcycles for the last 10 years. The loud-pipes crew are likely not to be well represented on this forum, and as such we're not in danger of changing anyone's opinions on this. However, the public does and will continue to lump all motorcyclists into the "they're too loud" category as long as there are even a few that insist on loud pipes, both cruisers and sportbikes. A similar problem with public perception was what the AMA tried to change with the 99% / 1% campaign.

 

Personally, I like the fact that I can hear my engine ticking away while I leave the loud-pipes guys behind me, they just don't seem to enjoy getting left behind by something that moments before they thought "sounds like a big scooter". lmao.gif

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Let me restate this then. My problem is that if this is to be put into effect, I feel it is wrong to punish those who already have an aftermarket exhaust that is not loud and annoying. Denver's new law states:

 

" © It shall be unlawful for any person or for the owner of a motor vehicle to modify or change the exhaust muffler, air intake muffler or any other sound reducing device in such a manner that the noise emitted from the motor vehicle exceeds the sound pressure levels as established in Table B of this section or, is increased above the sound pressure level of the vehicle as originally manufactured. Muffler cut-outs, by-passes or other devices which increase sound pressure levels, or change the original manufactured exhaust system of any motor vehicle shall be considered a violation of this chapter."

 

Translate this: NO AFTERMARKET EXHAUSTS, becuase they all raise the volume level of the stock bike. Again, I DO NOT like the super loud exhausts either, but I think not allowing ANYTHING above stock level is just unfair and unacceptable.

 

When Denver put it's Pit Bull ban into place, it grandfathered this in as well. Register all current Pit Bulls and after a certain date, any unregistered are illegal. They can certainly do this with motorcycle owners and their exhausts. They could even test the curent owners exhausts to make sure they are not louder than the 80db level before they certify it.

 

The sentence contains an "or" and refers to Table B which may allow after market exhausts that do not exceed a certain limit.

 

Just something to consider.

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Hmmm... I was planning to go through Denver this summer (hopeful). My duc has aftermarket Remus slip-ons. The bike wasn't built with a Cat, but does still have its factory pre-muffler... I'd guess I'm awfully close to maximum legal limit on the cans - cans which the dealer installed himself before selling me the bike.

 

I wonder what leniency will be afforded to guys like me who, not honestly knowing, would like to travel through Denver? The sound is nice, throaty, louder than stock (though not a HUGE amount louder), and has that Ducati sound... I'm not nearly as loud as the obnoxious HD across the street with straight pipes, no baffles or restrictors (removed by the dealer).

 

Should I ride around Denver?

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The sentence contains an "or" and refers to Table B which may allow after market exhausts that do not exceed a certain limit.

The table in question only has one entry and states that motor vehicles weighing less than 10,000 pounds manufacturers gross vehicle weight, at any time of day, may not generate an SPL of 80 dBA Maximum measured at a distance of 25 feet.

 

Probably not much of an "improvement", if any.

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They should at least grandfather this in,
The current bikes with current louder than stock pipes are the problem. How would allowing them to stay (grandfathered in) in any way, shape or form, solve the noise problem?

 

It wouldn't. The problem isn't people who may put pipes on in the future, the problem is those who already have.

but it is not so loud that it rattles windows
Well I won't flame you (at least not too much grin.gif) but that statement is indicative to the core of the issue. Every biker with aftermarket pipes thinks their particular bike sounds good. But what they think doesn't matter. It's what the rest of the world thinks of the sound/noise that counts. A concept that seems impossible to grasp by many.
like you see on many of the cruiser bikes (for example) or these race pipes many youngens put on their sport bikes.
Which in no way legitimizes or justifies our own violation. Jet aircraft and diesel locomotives are even louder, but does that justify a loud bike? No.
I for one do not intend to repurchase another exhaust because Denver
Well then I guess you'll have to pay up if stopped now won't you? $500 the first time and $1499 total on the second stop will buy a lot of legal exhaust for your bike!
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hERE iN DeadMoines...the LEO'S have a friggen decibel reader that they kinda stand out near the street with maybe 3 - 5 cruizers at the ready...pulling the loud pipe boyz over and citing them...
The problem John with that approach is any lawyer worth their diploma can easily get it thrown out in court. Was the sound meter calibrated recently? Was the LEO properly trained and certified in it's use? Can the LEO prove the sound the meter registered came from the bike and the bike only? No, no or no and "case dismissed." That's why the new Denver (and other cities) approach is much less arbitrary and much more enforceable in court.
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If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified.
But they won't because they can't. After all, how can you make an aftermarket exhaust system that is designed to make more noise, that doesn't make more noise?

 

It's sort of like setting out to make a poison that doesn't kill anything. Kind of self-defeating of an endeavor!

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feel it is wrong to punish those who already have an aftermarket exhaust that is not loud and annoying.
But what you think (not loud and annoying) doesn't count. It's what the non-riding public thinks that counts. Because they're the ones controlling your noise emissions destiny, not you. As evidenced by the new ordinance!
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similar problem with public perception was what the AMA tried to change with the 99% / 1% campaign.

Which is why I will never belong to AMA or ABATE. In my opinion they are doing motorcycling as a whole more harm than good with their position on pipes.
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I know that I'm new here, but I am also smart enough to know that if this thread were specifically titled to you that you will in all likelihood have strong opinions (convictions) on the subject. Having said that however, I would like you to explain how organizations like the AMA that have lobbied to have unfair propositions defeated and in some cases flagrantly prejudicial laws overturned are your enemy? Simply because they understand what we are all up against and have made educated decisions, based on the facts and the knowledge of what the results will in all probability be if put to a public vote, is no reason in and of itself to decide that the AMA is doing you more harm than good. If it were not for the AMA and other similar groups, we would have no public voice to try and convince John Q. Public that we don't all want to rape and pillage on our loud and dangerous motorcycles (who doesn't enjoy a good pillaging every now and then?). We also would not have had anyone on our side when it came to the (illegal) discrimination by Congress that nearly banned sport bikes. Please explain to me in a little more detailed reason why you think the AMA's suggestion that we regulate ourselves before our government does it for us is in any way more harm than good? Again, I'm not trying to revive any dead horses, only promote constructive conversation.

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skinny_tom (aka boney)

If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified.

 

The is for the NFS. Decibel limits on bikes is nothing new. The National Forest Service has had limits imposed for several years now and you can buy NFS approved exhausts and exhauset tips that both lessen the sound comoing from your bike AND have a spark arrestor. If you're caught in the National Forest with the stamp, they'll test you and ticket you if you don't comply.

 

Around here there are several events held in the National Forest for which EVERY BIKE ENTERED is tested for a spark arrestor and noise level- stamp or not.

 

If you fail the test, you don't ride. Period.

 

If I'm not mistaken, some aftermarket exhausts are also already stamped for street legal use in the European Union. I wonder if they're compliant here.

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Cave Creek AZ has a 80 decible law,It use to have a pic.of a motorcycle on the signs,But AMA Got that taken off,,Hell I think my R1200RT is 82 decibles stock!!!

It all depends on how far away the SPL is measured. If it is measured 3 feet away (as is typical) then that is FAR to low. Even many cars would fail 80 dB at 3 feet!

 

All that said, I too have a big problem with loud pipes. If bikes are allowed to have ear-splitting pipes, then why is it not also the right of all the car owners to have this? Then we could all go deaf!

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similar problem with public perception was what the AMA tried to change with the 99% / 1% campaign.

Which is why I will never belong to AMA or ABATE. In my opinion they are doing motorcycling as a whole more harm than good with their position on pipes.

 

Based on your statement, I just went to the AMA website and found this.

 

AMA Position Statement - Excessive Motorcycle Noise

 

 

Looks like they have seen the hand writing on the wall and are trying to encourage responsible behavior to ward off further legislative action. I have no idea how their membership feels about the issue.

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Based on your statement, I just went to the AMA website and found this.

 

AMA Position Statement - Excessive Motorcycle Noise

 

 

Looks like they have seen the hand writing on the wall and are trying to encourage responsible behavior to ward off further legislative action. I have no idea how their membership feels about the issue.

 

That's exactly what I was trying to say... except, not as good as you.. thumbsup.gif

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bakerzdosen

OK, so I'll ask this then because I'm a touch confused:

 

If I wanted to buy an aftermarket exhaust because my current one is ugly and heavy, is there an option that would still allow me to ride in Denver without fear of a ticket.

 

I don't care about noise (meaning, I don't care if my bike is silent or nearly so), I just want a better looking exhaust. Would I be out of luck?

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It all depends on how far away the SPL is measured. If it is measured 3 feet away (as is typical) then that is FAR to low. Even many cars would fail 80 dB at 3 feet!

Would it not also depend on where the measurement was taken?

 

After reading the chapter completely on the Denver ordinance, I didn't see any passage clarifying where the measuring device had to be in relation to the vehicle at the time an SPL is recorded. Seems to me a measurement taken toward the rear of a moving bike would typically be higher than from the front, right?

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Good link. And it contains some of the very reasons why I think the AMA is wimping out (at best) on this issue. To quote just a couple of spots:

 

"...has maintained a position of strong opposition to excessive motorcycle noise" Note they are not saying illegal, just the very subjective term "excessive"

 

"Motorcyclist should not modify exhaust systems in a way that will increase sound to an offensive level" Why doesn't it say, "to an illegal level?" Instead of the meaningless term "offensive." No rider thinks his particular bike is "offensive."

 

"Motorcycle retailers should discourage the installation..."Balony. The AMA should have enough _alls to say the retailer should be prohibited from installing...

 

"Q:What is "excessive noise?"

A:...It's up to you to determine what is excessive>" _ull _hit! What is excessive is as clear as can be. The federal (and some state and city) specifications on vehicle noise emissions is quite specific.

 

And then they go on to boast they have spent over $100,000 fighting noise ordnances in multiple cities. All they are accomplishing is pissing more of the non-riding public off against motorcycles by getting noise ordnances overturned instead of supporting them. Which might actually do some good for all of us.

 

The AMA is trying have their cake and eat it too. They are making a token effort to look like they are doing something with a hollow position statement without any real teeth in it, while at the same time, by their own admission their lawyers are out doing something else entirely.

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If you fail the test, you don't ride. Period.

 

Exactly, and my KTM was 1 DB below the accepted limit, completely stock.

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If there is a certification process, then the aftermarket companies could get their pipes certified.

 

If I'm not mistaken, some aftermarket exhausts are also already stamped for street legal use in the European Union. I wonder if they're compliant here.

 

I don't think there's a stamp requirement here to be compliant with, but since the EU limit is also 80 dB, they should be road legal in the US. If laws similar to the Denver one become more common, I expect the aftermarket manufacturers will probably just start putting EPA stamps on their EU certified exhausts.

 

But I don't think it would make a difference anyway. The vast majority of these EU certified systems achieve compliance using a "dB killer" (restrictor) that is designed to be removed with minimal effort. If you remove it, as most people do, you get a loud pipe with a certification stamp.

 

Also, most law enforcement agencies don't bother to enforce vehicle noise limits. A lot of LEOs even ride Harleys with illegal pipes. Does anybody expect them to spend time investigating whether a street legal stamped exhaust has been de-restricted, just to issue a citation?

 

Dave

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