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UPDATE: R12RT Head bolt failure......


lthj75

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A time sert can't be used. The tech said its not possible with where the stud meets the block. As a result, I need a new engine block. I proposed the option of a new engine and he said BMW no longer sells built engines.....this is going to be a long road.

 

Any advice of things you would look out for if you were in my shoes?

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John in VA

Wow what a pain, sorry. I'm curious, do you know your build date in case mine was built by the same factory shift? dopeslap.gif Hope you'll keep us updated.

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Wow what a pain, sorry. I'm curious, do you know your build date in case mine was built by the same factory shift? dopeslap.gif Hope you'll keep us updated.

 

Since the head bolts are checking during the 600 mile service, it begs the question as to where the fault truly resides....

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Rich06FJR1300

wow, some news. So what's the time frame? they have to get an engine block ordered from germany i take it. THen remove all the engine parts from the old to the new? ugh! that sounds painful...why not just give you a new bike and call it even.

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So what's the time frame? why not just give you a new bike and call it even.

 

End of June.....I wish they would give me a new bike....

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So what's the time frame? why not just give you a new bike and call it even.

 

End of June.....I wish they would give me a new bike....

 

I would speak to the owner of CCBMW and see what they will do in regards to a new bike.

 

This annoys me so much I think I am going to order a pair of Sidis

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I would speak to the owner of CCBMW and see what they will do in regards to a new bike.

 

You even think he would remotely entertain that as an option??? Should I involve him just to make it more of a priority?

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I would speak to the owner of CCBMW and see what they will do in regards to a new bike.

 

You even think that is an option??? Should I involve him just to make it more of a priority?

After the phone call and fender conversation, I would think the owner needs to know.

 

Did you look for those parts diagrams? The ones that show the pistons not going in the engine block confused.gif

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My concern would be to ask the dealer,"How many complete engines have they built?" and with this being completely rebuilt, I would want my warranty to start over as well. I would question the experience of a service technician building this. I'm bummed for you.

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My concern would be to ask the dealer,"How many complete engines have they built?" and with this being completely rebuilt, I would want my warranty to start over as well. I would question the experience of a service technician building this. I'm bummed for you.

 

They said they dont need to replace the piston rings.....

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I proposed the option of a new engine and he said BMW no longer sells built engines....
I may be wrong but I really don't buy that. I would insist on a complete new engine, or at least a factory-assembled short block. Less than that and I would be headed to court. A complete engine teardown and reassembly on a (nearly) new $20k bike is flat unacceptable.
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They said they dont need to replace the piston rings.....

 

To clarify - he said the pistons don't even need to come out of the cylinders....

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I may be wrong but I really don't buy that. I would insist on a complete new engine, or at least a factory-assembled short block. Less than that and I would be headed to court. A complete engine teardown and reassembly on a (nearly) new $20k bike is flat unacceptable.

 

I think this may need to be the case....I plan to call the owner of the dealer tomorrow as a starting point. Then BMW of NA afterwards. FARK. bncry.gif

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I proposed the option of a new engine and he said BMW no longer sells built engines....
I may be wrong but I really don't buy that. I would insist on a complete new engine, or at least a factory-assembled short block. Less than that and I would be headed to court. A complete engine teardown and reassembly on a (nearly) new $20k bike is flat unacceptable.

 

I said the exact same thing (less the court part). I can't believe that they would not have short blocks for a new model.

 

This is why I suggest speaking to the owner. The last time a service writer did something like this, he got fired.

 

I was offered his job several weeks later.

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I plan to call the owner of the dealer tomorrow as a starting point.
From the tone of your posts you seem like a patient and reasonable person and that will definitely help in your negotiation. Be painfully polite but absolutely firm.
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They said they dont need to replace the piston rings.....

 

To clarify - he said the pistons don't even need to come out of the cylinders....

 

Back in the day, when we put a second base gasket into my /5 to lower the compression, my dealer (who was and is very good) did just that. Pulled the cylinders out part way, unclipped the rods and removed the cylinders. Didn't have to re-breakin the rings. Worked just fine.

 

Best of luck to you. The whole thing is an incredible bummer.

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John in VA
I plan to call the owner of the dealer tomorrow as a starting point.

 

Considering that the bolt proabably wouldn't have backed itself out in the time since the dealer allegedly did a 600-mile service, I'll bet the owner will be sweating a bit -- and BMWNA won't be pleased with him either.

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to whatever your name is

 

By the way grew up in atlantic city for 26 yrs. Been there with the block replacement. Just get it done and move on cause nothing else you can do. The longer you screw around with it the longer you will not have a bike. Had no problem with the bike afterwards. They will not replace the whole engine and if they do anything more the replace the block you are a very special customer.

 

MP

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Back in the day, when we put a second base gasket into my /5 to lower the compression, my dealer (who was and is very good) did just that. Pulled the cylinders out part way, unclipped the rods and removed the cylinders. Didn't have to re-breakin the rings. Worked just fine.

 

Yes.....this is what he referenced doing....so maybe the rebuild is not that extensive then?

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I proposed the option of a new engine and he said BMW no longer sells built engines....
I may be wrong but I really don't buy that. I would insist on a complete new engine, or at least a factory-assembled short block. Less than that and I would be headed to court. A complete engine teardown and reassembly on a (nearly) new $20k bike is flat unacceptable. [/quot

 

smiller

 

Buy it because that's the way it is. I have been there and they took care of the problem with a new block (not a new engine) and everything was fine. If I had to do it all over again I would not have p & m about it and just got it fixed cause I would have gotten my bike back sooner. Overall I have to say that BMW is pretty good to there customers.

 

MP

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...so maybe the rebuild is not that extensive then?
Replacing the engine block is more complex than replacing the base gasket. The case will have to be split and the crankshaft, bearings, balance shaft, chain chain running gear, etc., will all have to be removed and replaced into the new block.
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<<<<<what smiler said...>>>>>

 

This is EXTENSIVE work. I wonder how much experience your dealer service tech has with a total disassembly and rebuild. Makes a person feel uncomfortable, and your dealer isn't helping you at this point. I would suggest contact with BMW NA on this matter. I find it hard to believe engines are not available. ALL the other manufacturers would REPLACE your engine as a unit. Why would they foot the dealers bill for reassembly as a warranty issue?

 

At the very least, INSIST on a loaner in the meantime. After all , this is a NEW bike, still under FACTORY warranty! Good luck my friend.

 

MB>

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St0nkingByte

If you are so inclined you could invoke the lemon law in your state to get a replacement bike...

 

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/ocp/lemguide.htm

 

A new motor vehicle is presumed to be a lemon if it has one or more defects that continue to exist after three attempts at repairs, OR after the vehicle has been out of service for a total of 20 cumulative calendar days. The Lemon Law requires that the consumer write to the manufacturer giving notification of one last chance to repair the defect (see page 3 for more information about this process). To qualify under the Lemon Law, the defect must substantially impair the use, value or safety of the vehicle. However, the Lemon Law does not cover defects caused by an accident, vandalism, abuse or neglect. It also does not cover defects caused by attempts to repair or to modify the vehicle by a person other than the manufacturer, its agent or an authorized dealer.
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moshe_levy

Larry-

 

Sorry to hear of your trouble. Tell me, do you know the name of the tech at CCBMW who performed your 600 mile service? I think the answer to that question may open up some options as to the best way to deal with this issue, from my experience with that dealer (which is excellent, for the record).

 

-MKL

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maxfrankel

BMW is "good to their customers" when a customer with a fatal defect in a virtually new bike is offered an engine rebuild at their local dealer! How many complete engine tear down and rebuilds do you suppose this shop has done on an R1200RT. Probably exactly ZERO. Does anyone seriously believe that the result will be a factory spec engine?????

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John in VA

I'd be curious to know what BMW's official shop time/rate is for this job -- and whether it's realistic. Thousands of dollars? Plus potential bounceback if the job isn't done flawlessly? Perhaps the warranty beancounters would rather chance that than grab a new engine off the factory shelf for goodwill. I guess an engine block is just another part to them, like a defective battery.

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More pure speculation on my part, but the dealer may know full well it was their screw up and thus is having to eat the repair. If so it may be cheaper for them to buy only the block so that most of their loss would be labor (vs. buying an expensive new engine out of pocket.)

 

BTW how did the dealer explain the failure?

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I have seen at San Jose BMW, a stud not holding the required torque on one of their racing R1200S engines, the master tech simply and carefully used either a Helicoil or Timesert in the block, don't remember which, worked fine and has survived many races to include several 3 hour Moto ST races. It can be done by a knowledgeable tech and actually be better than new.

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More pure speculation on my part, but the dealer may know full well it was their screw up and thus is having to eat the repair. If so it may be cheaper for them to buy only the block so that most of their loss would be labor (vs. buying an expensive new engine out of pocket.)

 

+1

 

I'm sure the dealer doesn't want to explain this to BMWNA so their eating the cost on the block & labor.

 

BTW how did the dealer explain the failure?

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RoadJunkie

I'm not sure I would have the same dealer (therefore mechanic) that performed questionable work the first time perform the rebuild. Can you shop (interview) for other mechanics that may have the expertise required?

 

Seems to me you paid for a factory build motorcycle, including the motor, and not one that was rebuilt by your local mechanic in a lonely, cold, dark, garage. DON'T give up on the new bike angle. I know it's easy to say from our angle than yours, but hang in there!

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At a minimum you should be riding a loaner R12 while this process works itself out. I'd seriously consider reviewing your options under the lemon law. From what I've read, you stand an excellent chance if you observe the notification requirements (which I would do as simple insurance). Also, I'd begin dealing with BMWNA on a regular basis since they have ultimate responsibility for satisfying the warranty.

 

Good luck...

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ShovelStrokeEd

I pretty much agree with the probability that a Time Cert will not provide a good solution here. Especially if the stud took out a chunk of the block as it pulled out the threads.

 

To all those blaming the local tech, you are probably wrong, it was the factory that screwed this up, stud improperly seated in the block. The 600 mile retorque procedure calls for a base torque (pretty low) followed by 180 degrees of rotation. That procedure feels pretty stretchy anyway and is so simple in execution it is doubtful the tech did anything wrong. He may not even have felt the stud let go as it probably didn't fail until thermal expansion placed the last straw on the assembly.

 

I would also question the idea of replacing the block. There are a number of critical measurements/adjustments required here in the form of bearing shells for the main bearings, as just one example, that make this more than just swapping the parts from the old block to the new. There is also the question of the environment in which the work will be performed. Dealer service bay is NOT the same level of cleanliness as the engine assembly area at the factory.

 

There is then the matter of the engine serial number possibly no longer matching the VIN on the frame. They normally don't match but the records will show a different block number or that the block was replaced. Care to speculate on what that will do to the ultimate resale value of the bike?

 

I would probably take a stance on this issue and not budge from it. New motor or new bike. If the owner doesn't wish to cooperate, time to lawyer up.

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We'll never know for sure what caused the failure and if I were the owner I guess it wouldn't even matter that much at this point, now it's time to be focused on the fix. One thing that there seems to be (near) complete agreement on is to avoid the idea of swapping parts. Ed outlined why and frankly I'm surprised that the dealer would even suggest this route. The fact that they did is one element of my suspicion, as is the claim that factory assembled engine components are not available. But this is BMW after all so such a bizarre customer-unfriendly policy might possibly be true... one thing the owner might do out of curiosity is to call another dealer and query as to whether they can order him an engine or shortblock, and see if the answers match.

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Here are my two cents: Webparts.com lists a short engine assembly for the R12RT, part # 11 00 7 695 179. I would certainly rather have the top end parts swapped to a factory assembled lower end, than have my new engine all the way apart. I would also insist on digital pictures of each step e-mailed to me every step of the way, including any technician comments during the process. Additionally, I would insist on the shops most experienced/trained tech being the person doing ALL the work. Document every converstation/phone call/etc., and be certain the owner knows you are doing this. In this situation the dealer should have no issues with these conditions. If they do, then escalate the process with BMW!

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Not to start a panic, but I noticed that same stud sticking out more than the others when I did my own 600m service on my R1200s (vin build date 5/06). I double nutted it and turned it in more before completing the head re-torque. Maybe an engine assembly robot was having a bad day/month crazy.gif

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Not to start a panic, but I noticed that same stud sticking out more than the others when I did my own 600m service on my R1200s
Perhaps it was a good idea to do it yourself. I hear bad things can happen when a mechanic isn't as observant... wink.gif
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Not to start a panic, but I noticed that same stud sticking out more than the others when I did my own 600m service on my R1200s (vin build date 5/06). I double nutted it and turned it in more before completing the head re-torque. Maybe an engine assembly robot was having a bad day/month crazy.gif

 

Now we need to find the original poster's build date...maybe the start of a recall campaign?

 

Tom - how many miles on yours? Did you have the 600 mile service done by BMW?

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I had around 800m when I did the "600m" service myself (meaning a dealer hadn't touched it).

The threads hadn't stripped and the re-torque has held (now have 3000m). I just thought it might be more than a coincidence that the same head stud that failed for the original poster was noticeably "longer" than the others (until I turned it in more) on mine and came that way from the factory.

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I just thought it might be more than a coincidence that the same head stud that failed for the original poster

I agree

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I just thought it might be more than a coincidence that the same head stud that failed for the original poster

I agree

 

Agree as well - my build date was 2/06......

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A time sert can't be used. The tech said its not possible with where the stud meets the block. As a result, I need a new engine block. I proposed the option of a new engine and he said BMW no longer sells built engines.....this is going to be a long road.

I'll bet it IS possible! Take to to a real machinist, not just a motorcycle mechanic!!

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You were actually able to turn the stud back into the head!?! eek.gif
You put two nuts on the stud so that they bind together, then just thread it back in.

 

Seems like if a head stud was out enough that re-torquing could cause a thread failure it would likely be somewhere between fairly visible and obvious though.

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You were actually able to turn the stud back into the head!?! eek.gif
You put two nuts on the stud so that they bind together, then just thread it back in.

 

Seems like if a head stud was out enough that re-torquing could cause a thread failure it would likely be somewhere between fairly visible and obvious though.

 

You've done this on a hexhead? How much stud should be sticking out past the nut heads? Should all 4 bolts have the same amount of "extra length" past the nut heads?

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You've done this on a hexhead? How much stud should be sticking out past the nut heads? Should all 4 bolts have the same amount of "extra length" past the nut heads?
No, not on a hexhead, although I've installed plenty of cylinder heads in my time. There is usually enough thread on a high-torque stud installation to allow a safety factor and if the stud is out enough to actually rip out the remaining threads in the block then usually it will be quite visible (in comparison to the others), as was true in Tom's case.
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You've done this on a hexhead? How much stud should be sticking out past the nut heads? Should all 4 bolts have the same amount of "extra length" past the nut heads?
No, not on a hexhead, although I've installed plenty of cylinder heads in my time. There is usually enough thread on a high-torque stud installation to allow a safety factor and if the stud is out enough to actually rip out the remaining threads in the block then usually it will be quite visible (in comparison to the others), as was true in Tom's case.

 

I ask because I have one head bolt that has significantly more thread sticking out past the nut than the other three. Both sides are the same so I believed it to be a feature of the hexhead. The airheads and oilheads of my past were always equal when it came to extra threaded length past the nut.

 

For my bike, it is the lowest of the 4 head bolts that has the extra threads sticking out.

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I ask because I have one head bolt that has significantly more thread sticking out past the nut than the other three. Both sides are the same so I believed it to be a feature of the hexhead.
Ah, I see what you were getting at. Yes, it may well be, some designs are like that. We are all still in heavy speculation mode here and a lot more needs to be verified before we start coming up with theories about production run issues.
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In my case it was only the lower forward most stud on the right side that was protruding noticeably more (look at the picture in the thread start, it was the same stud). And to a previous question, I was able to turn it in more by double nutting it.

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