2 killed, 15 injured in police chase of speeding biker

[wrestleantares]

Why not just make any unlawful flight a capital offense?

Authorize the agency with jurisdiction to use deadly force.

Glock 1 crotchrocket scofflaw 0

End of story.

Pleaase don't create hypothetical justifications for fleeing.

Lights on, you STOP.

Then reasonable explanations and solutions, if needed, can be applied. Need an escort for emergency medical situation?

I've BTDT. We were stopped. Motorcycle LEO immediately and correctly assessed situation, got on radio, and led/escorted us to ER. May have saved my life.

The fear of judicial hindsight has hamstrung many agencies.

Make a clear, immediate, explicit, public example out of someone who does this, whether in an Escalade or on a bike.

The more Draconian and public the better.

Criminals fleeing the scene of a crime already have made up their mind to flee. They don't deserve a break. Authorize the use of deadly force. Would have a dramatic effect on the recdivism rate.

When we are afraid to stop criminal behavior because a court may blame our authorized law enfrocement agencies, and their representatives, for consequences related to the enforcement of our laws, we need new laws, or new courts.

 

I watched Electra Glide in Blue last night (Robert Blake motor cop movie), and they certainly used deadly force on a motorcycle gang they were chasing.

 

One of the gang members wrecked, and with plenty of stopping room a cop car still managed to run over both he bike and the biker.

 

Then they shot at one biker - and blew up his bike.

[Agent_Orange]

I don't get it. Some of you want deadly force. And yet our own troops can't use the same deadly force that you want our LEO's to use.

Alice in Wonderland. What a farce. Combat troops with lawyers dictating rules of engagement. And LEO's blasting away at miscreants.

Some of you gots-no-clue. IMHO.

[John in VA]

Unfortunately, it's our troops who gots no clue who's the enemy and who's the friendly in the civil war they've been sent in to referee. I guess maybe if they were allowed to just freely roam around that occupied country, kick in doors and spray the population with 50-cal at will, they might pick off an "insurgent" or a "dead-ender" or two and the whole thing would be over quick? Then again, it's hard to engage in armed combat with invisible IEDs, which seem to be what kills and maims most of our guys. That's ALice in Wonderland.

[Agent_Orange]

We'll just have to sit down and discuss it over several drinks. I can not, for the life of me, type what I think about that, and the original thread with out seeming a slavering psychopath.

[motorman587]

We'll just have to sit down and discuss it over several drinks. I can not, for the life of me, type what I think about that, and the original thread with out seeming a slavering psychopath.

 

I like that idea.

[John in VA]

Sounds good to me. What's Alice serving tonight?

[AviP]

While it is sad that 2 people died, I hope the biker gets away. I don't think he should pay for the cop's mistake. I would hate to see him charged with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter. I hate prosecutors that look for any and every offense that might have been committed and judges that apply serial sentences indiscriminately. I think they have wield too much power.

 

The prosecutor may charge the rider with:

- speeding

- reckless endangerment

- involuntary manslaughter 2 counts

- several lane changes without signalling

- failure to stop for a law official

- and many more violations

 

I would rather see the cop investigated and charged.

 

My condolences to the families of the deceased. It's totally unfair and devastating for them.

[W. Mazelin]

While it is sad that 2 people died, I hope the biker gets away. I don't think he should pay for the cop's mistake. I would hate to see him charged with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter. I hate prosecutors that look for any and every offense that might have been committed and judges that apply serial sentences indiscriminately. I think they have wield too much power.

 

The prosecutor may charge the rider with:

- speeding

- reckless endangerment

- involuntary manslaughter 2 counts

- several lane changes without signalling

- failure to stop for a law official

- and many more violations

 

I would rather see the cop investigated and charged.

 

My condolences to the families of the deceased. It's totally unfair and devastating for them.

 

Are you outta your head?

[St_Louis_Don]

Fortunately, Arlington County VA police have a no-high-speed-pursuit policy.

 

Thanks for the tip! I know where I robbing my next bank.

[St_Louis_Don]

While it is sad that 2 people died, I hope the biker gets away. I don't think he should pay for the cop's mistake. I would hate to see him charged with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter. I hate prosecutors that look for any and every offense that might have been committed and judges that apply serial sentences indiscriminately. I think they have wield too much power.

 

The prosecutor may charge the rider with:

- speeding

- reckless endangerment

- involuntary manslaughter 2 counts

- several lane changes without signalling

- failure to stop for a law official

- and many more violations

 

I would rather see the cop investigated and charged.

 

My condolences to the families of the deceased. It's totally unfair and devastating for them.

 

Hell, let’s bake him a cake and throw him a party. After all he was a skillful enough rider to manage to get two people killed and avoided arrest. Maybe give him a medal while we’re at it. Name a boulevard after him, or a statue!

 

After all it isn’t his fault the mean O’l Police started to chase him. He’s the VICTUM here. A target of “Crotch-rocket Profiling” He probably came from a broken home, with poor schools, and no health insurance coverage. We should feel sorry for him. Try to understand his feelings. Why, if he stopped for the Police, that would have heightened his sense of inferiority and made him feel subservient to society. He should be praised for his quick thinking and courage. Not vilified. Poor misunderstood boy.

[tallman]

Interesting that most want to throw the book at this guy

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/868480/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1/nt/2

driving a car,

but some seem to think the criminal in this thread deserves special treatment because he/she was riding a motorcycle.

If this thread involved the driver in EB's thread (above) we'd all be screaming "hang him."

Deadboy,

You're friend stopped, so there was no problem. Are you suggesting we tie the policeman's hands even more and not allow them to stop/question an individual that matches the description of a criminal?

[John in VA]

Fortunately, Arlington County VA police have a no-high-speed-pursuit policy.

 

Thanks for the tip! I know where I robbing my next bank.

 

You're welcome! Fine, come ahead! You won't have to speed (nor will the cops) and crash into say, a schoolbus and kill a bunch of children because you'll be stuck in traffic within 5 blocks, roadblocked in and be off to the clink in 15 minutes. The simple question is whether catching a bankrobber (or a speeding squid) is worth risking innocent bystanders' lives from a high speed chase. It isn't to me.

[Deadboy]

Deadboy,

You're friend stopped, so there was no problem. Are you suggesting we tie the policeman's hands even more and not allow them to stop/question an individual that matches the description of a criminal?

 

Stopped? Not exactly. A felony stop doesn’t exactly involve stopping so much as being ordered to the ground at gun point over a case of mistaken identity (he actually didn't look anything like the criminal (different race), but both had motorcycles)....my point was the folks advocating the shoot first strategy are clearly not thinking it through....how much does a "potential" criminal have to flee before shooting is justified....pretty soon the "I thought he was going to flee, after all he is on one of the rocket bikes" defense would become viable, and come on now, who can really tell the difference between an RT and a Busa anyway......better shoot em all just to be safe….

[Stir]

Nothing in this that says the motorcyclist was trying to run or that this was a pursuit. We jump to that conclusion, but where are the facts.....?

 

I agree with this. I had a CHP come up on me and yell at me over the microphone to get out of the way. I could hear the sound, but being on the bike, in a helmet, I could not get a sense of direction. I was trying to look around to see where he was at and he really started getting yelling at me. I finally figured out where he was and moved away from him so he could continue on and catch the car he wanted to ticket.

 

On a bike with a helmet, I'm always paying attention but that guy planted himself right behind me and I just could not see him. I felt that if he were wanting to give me a ticket, he might have gotten the sense that I was ignoring him and not pulling over.

 

The articles seem to contradict and not necessarilly point to a pursuit. Motorcycles swerve through traffic even when they aren't being chased.

[W. Mazelin]

Fortunately, Arlington County VA police have a no-high-speed-pursuit policy.

 

Thanks for the tip! I know where I robbing my next bank.

 

You're welcome! Fine, come ahead! You won't have to speed (nor will the cops) and crash into say, a schoolbus and kill a bunch of children because you'll be stuck in traffic within 5 blocks, roadblocked in and be off to the clink in 15 minutes. The simple question is whether catching a bankrobber (or a speeding squid) is worth risking innocent bystanders' lives from a high speed chase. It isn't to me.

 

I tend to doubt the swift road-blocking, head-them-off-at-the-pass abilities of your local LE agancy. Nothing against them, it just isn't as simple as it seems. A couple of Murphy's laws:

1) Your plan won't survive the first minute of contact.

2) If your attack is going very well, it's an ambush.

 

Your views of pursuits might change a bit if said felon had injured/killed someone close to you, your wife or child, perhaps. The bad guys have to be chased and caught. Any nation that makes war on its police, had better be willing to befriend its criminals. I like the cops better. I say hound them to gates of hell, and if needed, stomp them, or kill them there.

[tallman]

Deadboy,

You're friend stopped, so there was no problem. Are you suggesting we tie the policeman's hands even more and not allow them to stop/question an individual that matches the description of a criminal?

 

Stopped? Not exactly. A felony stop doesn’t exactly involve stopping so much as being ordered to the ground at gun point over a case of mistaken identity (he actually didn't look anything like the criminal (different race), but both had motorcycles)....my point was the folks advocating the shoot first strategy are clearly not thinking it through....how much does a "potential" criminal have to flee before shooting is justified....pretty soon the "I thought he was going to flee, after all he is on one of the rocket bikes" defense would become viable, and come on now, who can really tell the difference between an RT and a Busa anyway......better shoot em all just to be safe….

 

Someone who disregards a lawful order to stop, and then flees, is a criminal, not a "potential" criminal.

I'm talking about a specific situation. Easily identified.

You're using a broad stroke with slippery slope implications that I didn't assert.

If anything, I'll assert that we've started down the slippery slope of criminal coddling, fearful to enforce laws.

Traffic violators, in particular, IMO, in this country are coddled.

I've been hit and run twice, on 2 wheels. Both fled the scene.

I've had my motorcycle hit and run (I was off it fearing that this would happen) and he fled.

I feel that there are too many felonious traffic law violators who have caused pain, financial loss, and death, that continue to drive on our roads.

A fleeing speeder is no different than a fleeing burglar.

Both are criminals, both should be stopped and punished.

If they choose to flee, all bets are off.

This story is an example of why so many jurisdictional authorityes have a no pursuit policy.

But, remember, they didn't decide to enact this policy until someone chose to flee, and there were unwanted consequences. Not because pursuit is wrong, because the unintended consequences can be tragic.

We're mixing the unintended consequence into the criminal act. They are not joined. They are separate.

Fleeing is wrong, it is criminal, it should be severely punished.

Any slimey miscreant who is willing to bet their life, and yours/mine, that the police won't pursue due to fear of unintended consequences has already told you what they think of you and your rights.

Why would any rational person endorse such self centered criminal choices?

Of course I don't want anyone hurt or killed in pursuit.

Authorizing deadly force would not require it to be used.

But using the school bus example above, wouldn't anyone want to save those children from the collision with a speeding motorcycle that would surely kill the cyclist, possibly some of them, and traumatize them as a result?

[Lawman]

Bill,

We have so much of this now and so many innocent lives are lost as a result of more and more people these days who share the views of Deadboy and Digtlartst..There is less and less respect for the rule of law and more and more of those who want to blame someone else other than the one who should be blamed..Personal responsibility is a thing of the past. You are out of date my friend. Instead of dealing with those who would deal us harm in a meaningful way we blame the gun manufacturer's for making the guns we use to kill with. We blame the school administrators for the problems with our kids and raise sand with them if they discipline our kids..We blame the cigarette companies for selling us their cigarettes..Hell, we blame McDonald's for selling us coffee that will burn us.. We hire competent well trained men and women to protect us and enforce the laws so long as nothing bad happens but when it does we blame them. We sue whoever has the money with little regard for who was to blame..We have more lawlessness today than ever before and until the pendulum begins to swing the other way that will continue to be the case..If and when that will ever happen is a question I can't answer..As I said earlier "we get what we deserve"

[casticus]

Ahhh Tallman I yearn for the days before Tennessee vs. Garner

 

Ever since a court ruling in a (drumroll please) civil court again) the Police can't shoot fleeing felons unless their succesful flight could reasonably be expected to cause the death or great bodily injury to another person....

 

You will note this is a civil decision but of course my agency and every agency I know of adopted this as deadly force policy.

 

Funny thing a criminal court decision out of the City of Detroit a couple years back set precedent allowing a private citizen to shoot a fleeing felon without having to articulate anything about the felons succesful flight resulting in death, etc... to someone.

 

So a private citizen can shoot a fleeing felon but a law enforcement officer cannot.....

 

That was the loophole they found for a jewelry store general manager who chased a a dude out of his store who had run out without paying for a rolex into lunchtime foot and vehicle traffic in a downtown business district and then went all Wyatt Earp shooting at the fleeing vehicle the guy was in....Of course he missed his intended target and hit two other occupied vehicles scaring the hell out of those folks....Now no force was used to steal the watch and because it was an item offered for sale the crime was....shoplifting! Only thing that saved him was the dollar value of the watch was so high that it became felony shoplifting.....

 

I love bizarro world.

[Quinn]

My city also has a no high speed pursuit policy. All I've seen it do is encourage fleeing. What I see in the paper are a lot of wreaks by those fleeing in stolen cars. Apparently, if they can get away fast enough and avoid getting boxed in (by running through road blocks), the police are required to give up. If the city police want somebody chased at high speed, they have to call in the Highway Patrol who are specially trained. Hopefully, there is a qualified officer near enough to take up pursuit. With those odds, and the lack of meaningful punishment, it's no wonder so many punks choose to flee.

[W. Mazelin]

Oh, I know I'm outta date! I think it was the movie "The Star Chamber" with Michael Douglas, where one of the characters said something to the effect of: justice has been kidnapped and hidden in the law.

[Deadboy]

While I do not 100% disagree with your point (or characterization of my opinion) the issue isn't respect for the rule of law it is a simple cost vs. benefit debate. Does society as a whole benefit more in the long run from the cost of these high speed pursuits (and possibly getting a bad guy off the streets sooner) than it loses when they go wrong and innocent people are killed...I think frequently the cost is indeed too high even if the result is a bad guy getting away in some instances....

 

However I would suggest you do some research on one particular issue, it isn’t what most people think….

 

Hell, we blame McDonald's for selling us coffee that will burn us: http://lawandhelp.com/q298-2.htm

[St_Louis_Don]

Funny thing a criminal court decision out of the City of Detroit a couple years back set precedent allowing a private citizen to shoot a fleeing felon without having to articulate anything about the felons succesful flight resulting in death, etc... to someone.

 

So a private citizen can shoot a fleeing felon but a law enforcement officer cannot.....

 

Ok, I think I have a solution. We concerned citizens of the community take firearm training and get our States respective CC Permits. Then we sign-up for our local “Ride Along” program. When our respective LEO gets jammed-up he turns to us and we shoot the guy for him. Now if we can only figure out a way to get him to stop long enough for us to get a good bead on him.

 

Can someone get us a roadblock here, please?

[John in VA]

Deadboy, it seems some of the dissenters here simply don't accept the cost v. benefit concept for the greater good and feel that punishment of criminals and enforcing traffic laws outweighs risks of death and injury to innocent bystanding citizens. Some support summary execution by police (Glock 1 - crotchrocket 0). That's ok, that's their view.

 

There's plenty of moaning about restrictions on police actions and practices, but the fact is that WE THE PEOPLE determine police policy, and that is how it should be. Policeman do an often thankless, heroic service every day they go to work, but it's very easy to cross a line with the best of intentions. It's a delicate balance requiring judgment, and the balance tips one way and the other based on public sentiment of COST/BENEFIT. The motto of some police departments is "To Serve and Protect." I cannot guess how the families of the two people killed in the local story must feel. Do they feel served and protected knowing that the deaths and the 15 serious injuries were consequences of a high speed pursuit of a speeder at that time on that busy suburban Interstate in rush hour? IMO the judgment of the policeman is in question. Of course it was an accident, but the tragedy was almost predictable to anyone familiar with the amount of traffic on that road at 7:00pm.

 

People moan about the lack of personal responsibility, but it seems that the policeman who struck the car resulting in the occupants' deaths should somehow get a pass because his act was in the cause of bringing to justice a criminal -- a speeding motorcyclist. IMO, this does not fulfill the duty To Serve and Protect. I know some blame the motorcyclist entirely, but there had to be a safer and saner alternative method to apprehending him. Some dismiss that.

 

I think I'll let this thread be; I've made my points. Criticizing police actions is a touchy subject, but IMO the freedom to do so is part of what makes our country great. I have great admiration and respect for police officers and my family knows a couple of county cops and EMSs personally, but learning of these deaths affected me and seem to me to be such a preventable, unnecessary waste of innocent lives. At least I know that this wouldn't have happened in my county.

[GoGo Gadget]

A good cop will do a cost benefit analysis on every event. Is this chase worth it? That is what they ask themselves. You have absolutely no idea how many chases get called off do you? No, because they do not make the news. So your viewpoint is skewed. I had 2 pursuits within an hour a few months ago. I attempted to pull a motorcycle over for doing a wheelie down I66. He ran, I chased. Traffic was light so the risk was small. Plate was bent up, so I zero info on the registered owner. Even if I had the plate number, it was not registered to the guy riding it anyway.

 

1 hour later, two bikes get flagged down, 1 runs, 1 stops. Another pursuit ensues, but is called off as soon as he gets onto I66. Traffic is heavier, 3pm vs 4pm makes a big difference, plus his buddy who stopped has his info and the helicopter is overhead still from my 1st pursuit. 2nd knucklehead runs for 40min lanesplitting on I66 and the Beltway at 140mph. Gets on and off the highways, running redlights on backroads. Has to stop for gas so he can continue his antics. 40mins he ran without a single patrol car within miles of him. The pursuit was called off 38 minutes before he finally decided to run to MD where the helicopter stopped following and videotaping.

 

 

So the 1st example is of a safe chase, the 2nd would have been unsafe if we had chased, so we did not.

 

Now lets use your cost benefit analysis, not to any single event, but to what happens to society when you disregard the rule of law. 2 people died the other day. Right now we don't know if it is a result of great malfeasance or reckless behaviour on the officers part, or simply "crap happens". How many will die in our society if we allow the criminals to run rampant? If a twist of a wrist means you will not go to jail, then how many dangers will society then endure? If a PD took out a full page ad and said that they will not engage in any pursuits for the sake of public safety, would the community feel better about it as their crime rate soars? Would the community feel better when people die as the criminal runs the redlight causing a crash even though there is no officer around chasing him?

[Ghostdad]

Why not just make any unlawful flight a capital offense?

Authorize the agency with jurisdiction to use deadly force.

Glock 1 crotchrocket scofflaw 0

End of story.

Pleaase don't create hypothetical justifications for fleeing.

Lights on, you STOP.

Then reasonable explanations and solutions, if needed, can be applied. Need an escort for emergency medical situation?

I've BTDT. We were stopped. Motorcycle LEO immediately and correctly assessed situation, got on radio, and led/escorted us to ER. May have saved my life.

The fear of judicial hindsight has hamstrung many agencies.

Make a clear, immediate, explicit, public example out of someone who does this, whether in an Escalade or on a bike.

The more Draconian and public the better.

Criminals fleeing the scene of a crime already have made up their mind to flee. They don't deserve a break. Authorize the use of deadly force. Would have a dramatic effect on the recdivism rate.

When we are afraid to stop criminal behavior because a court may blame our authorized law enfrocement agencies, and their representatives, for consequences related to the enforcement of our laws, we need new laws, or new courts.

 

I agree 100%... (Do the crime, Do the time..)

Dave

[motorman587]

Not being on the side of the crimial, I remember when our departement went to "no" pursuit policy, I thought that the world was going to come to end. The criminals were going to destory our city, but this has been about 10 years know and you could not see any difference and I am pretty sure that there has been a life or two saved because of this policy. Again half of me says chase them and the other half says, stupid, stupid, and more stupid.

 

I have not seen anyone talk about the age of police officers or pay. I believe a well paid department will have policies in place that protect the community and police officers. These departments will have more senior officer because the pay/retirement is good. A senior, not always but most of the time, will make a better judgement call then an officer with 2-3 years on the job. I think I remember reading that a rookie will be involved in a crash his first 2-3 years on the job.

[JerryMather]

chasing[/color] the motorcycle on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit slammed into a vehicle after the motorcycle cut in front of the car, police said.

 

It is simple fact, that the Police can not initiate a “CHASE”! Before they can CHASE you, you have to run! The “CHASE” is always started by the BAD GUYS. Always, every single time, the Bad Guy has to… not only fail to stop but accelerate away from the LEO for a “CHASE” to happen. If the Bad Guy stops the Police can’t CHASE him. It’s not the Police’s fault if the BAD GUYs run!!!

 

Rather then blame the Police. If someone dies as a result of you running from the Law. You should be tried for murder. Since it was your fleeing that caused the incident in the first place.

 

I am so tired of hearing this BS from Police Dept's.

The fact is that the patrolman was involved in a crash and he's the one that could have broken off the chase before the crash happened. Patrolmen should be responsible for their actions regardless of whom started this.

The biker was responsible for the chase starting but the patrolman is responsible for driving his patrol car in a matter that will not involve Innocent bystanders. Isn't that why they have or should have extensive training camps to be able to do this as safe as possible.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of laying the blame on someone else, even if they're wearing a uniform. They're out there to protect and serve us not to kill us because they're pursuing someone for a vehicle infraction.

Get over yourself guys and stop hiding behind your uniform. Collateral damage can be worse than the infraction your chasing. Use your head.

[motorman587]

chasing[/color] the motorcycle on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit slammed into a vehicle after the motorcycle cut in front of the car, police said.

 

It is simple fact, that the Police can not initiate a “CHASE”! Before they can CHASE you, you have to run! The “CHASE” is always started by the BAD GUYS. Always, every single time, the Bad Guy has to… not only fail to stop but accelerate away from the LEO for a “CHASE” to happen. If the Bad Guy stops the Police can’t CHASE him. It’s not the Police’s fault if the BAD GUYs run!!!

 

Rather then blame the Police. If someone dies as a result of you running from the Law. You should be tried for murder. Since it was your fleeing that caused the incident in the first place.

 

I am so tired of hearing this BS from Police Dept's.

The fact is that the patrolman was involved in a crash and he's the one that could have broken off the chase before the crash happened. Patrolmen should be responsible for their actions regardless of whom started this.

The biker was responsible for the chase starting but the patrolman is responsible for driving his patrol car in a matter that will not involve Innocent bystanders. Isn't that why they have or should have extensive training camps to be able to do this as safe as possible.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of laying the blame on someone else, even if they're wearing a uniform. They're out there to protect and serve us not to kill us because they're pursuing someone for a vehicle infraction.

Get over yourself guys and stop hiding behind your uniform. Collateral damage can be worse than the infraction your chasing. Use your head.

 

I really do not like the tone here. Had the Ahole stopped as required there would not have been a chase. If the court system would put people in jail and punish them as required there would be less chases. If the court system would punish people for bad driving there would be less crashes. I go to court and pretty much 99% of the case the defendant gets the points held, fine is not increase, pretty much just a slap.

 

About vehicle chases. Why is the vehicle not stopping??? Committed another crime. I remember watching a show once where the officer was chases a car that would not stop for a traffic infraction. He could not chase because of his department policy. It turns out this vehicle was involved in a small child kidnapping and murder. They interview the officer who had chase the car the day before and it was detemined that and the officer felt the same way, had he been about to continue to chase and catch this vehicle a life would've been spared.

 

I really think that "hiding behind the uniform" comment is uncalled for. A lot of the LEO's here on this board are giving you how they feel, through the years of working as LEO's. You see that they are a lot of facts involved in a chase and it has deep issues, chase or not to chase, that we will never solve on this board.

[PRC]

Well I've stayed out of this one for as long as I could. Everything I write from here out can be verified by media accounts and personally by John (Motorman587).

 

On 3/12/99 I was involved in a pursuit that was started by another agency in my county. The pursuit was the result of felony charges. When the other agency brought (as they called it) the "Aggressive Traffic Stop" into the county, I picked it up. It lasted 2min 48 seconds. The fleeing vehicle was just too reckless. I terminated the pursuit and 1/4 mile up the road, the bad guy slammed into a bus carrying a visiting college baseball team.

 

The result was 1 dead and 7 injured critically and other injuries.

 

Bad guy goes to court 2 years later gets life plus 30. His reason for fleeing?? First he said he didn't see us, second he said he was scared and that's why he didn't stop.

 

The family of the dead boy, the others that were injured and the ones who witnessed it in the second bus ALL were in favor of pursuits continuing. One of the players said, "If a few must die to keep the rest of us safe, well I guess it's worth it." He said this from the wheel chair he is now confined to.

 

The family of the bad guy attempted to sue for damages to the car.

 

As the officer was doing the chasing, well folks it's a horrible and sick feeling to carry with you. No matter how many years pass or many times others and the failies and the injured assure you that you did the right thing, you feel horrible. You remember the day like it was yesterday. It is the worst thing that can happen, death to an innocent as a result of you DOING your job. Remeber folks, LEO's are still people who hurt just like the guy who feeds the homeless or gal who helps the battered wife. I'm sorry that some can't identify with the enormous pressures that go with this job. Nobody ever died because a computer programmer wrote code wrong, or because the pixels were off on a picture or because their order at Burger Palace got mixed up. And if they did, while no less tragic, it wouldn't cause a great public uproar along these lines. So to those who want the cop investigated or the like, well that's going to happen and after the media storm and public outcry for his head subsides, he'll continue to live with the result and pain of the incident for the rest of his life, not carrer, life. For those who think a roadblock is the answer, well guess what? People can ride motors AROUND THEM. As for shooting the cyclist? Well I don't know about that either. And for those who really want to just moan about the cops hiding behind the uniform, well, you're the reasons we go out there everyday. I don't know if Jack Nicholson had it right in A Few Good Men when his character said something along the lines of "You sleep under the blanket of freedom I provide but then question the way I provide that very freedom. I'd rather you just say thank you." Sometimes the end justifies the means and sometimes it doesn't. If you want a safe society, sometimes the bill is very high for that safety.

[W. Mazelin]

chasing[/color] the motorcycle on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit slammed into a vehicle after the motorcycle cut in front of the car, police said.

 

It is simple fact, that the Police can not initiate a “CHASE”! Before they can CHASE you, you have to run! The “CHASE” is always started by the BAD GUYS. Always, every single time, the Bad Guy has to… not only fail to stop but accelerate away from the LEO for a “CHASE” to happen. If the Bad Guy stops the Police can’t CHASE him. It’s not the Police’s fault if the BAD GUYs run!!!

 

Rather then blame the Police. If someone dies as a result of you running from the Law. You should be tried for murder. Since it was your fleeing that caused the incident in the first place.

 

I am so tired of hearing this BS from Police Dept's.

The fact is that the patrolman was involved in a crash and he's the one that could have broken off the chase before the crash happened. Patrolmen should be responsible for their actions regardless of whom started this.

The biker was responsible for the chase starting but the patrolman is responsible for driving his patrol car in a matter that will not involve Innocent bystanders. Isn't that why they have or should have extensive training camps to be able to do this as safe as possible.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions instead of laying the blame on someone else, even if they're wearing a uniform. They're out there to protect and serve us not to kill us because they're pursuing someone for a vehicle infraction.

Get over yourself guys and stop hiding behind your uniform. Collateral damage can be worse than the infraction your chasing. Use your head.

 

Jerry:

 

In California, and probably the other 49 states of the Union, the LEOs are required to drive within the limits set by policy, and the law, they have to exercise due regard for others when in pursuit. Putting the red light & siren on does not give them a blank slate to simply do what they want as fast as they want. Cops do make mistakes, that is true, but when you get down to the root cause of chases, a chase can only happen when the bad guy splits. Perhaps this whole story would sound a little different if it was written more like this:

A fleeing, felonious, motorcyclist set in in motion a multi-vehicle, 2 fatality crash on the outer loop near the Ritchie Marlboro Road exit. His aggressive lane changes and rapid acceleration, were confusing to the other drivers and police. One of the police cruisers hit the back of another car . . .

[upflying]

BTW, I was the "victim" of a pursuit that ended in the deaths of two people. Fortunately the only dead and injured were in the stolen car I was chasing. I was placed on admin leave for one week while the CHP, district attorney and my department conducted a joint investigation and reconstruction into the circumstances of the fatility that occurred while these people were in my "custody". Three months later, I was subjected to a coroners inquest where a grand jury decides whether the death was accidental, intentional or at the "hands of another". Then I get to wait another year while the ineveitable civil lawsuit is filed charging me with federal civil rights violation. I was cleared in the end but was it worth to jeopardize my career and retirement to recover a stolen (and now totaled) $1500 Saturn?

[Deadboy]

Well I've stayed out of this one for as long as I could. Everything I write from here out can be verified by media accounts and personally by John (Motorman587).

 

On 3/12/99 I was involved in a pursuit that was started by another agency in my county. The pursuit was the result of felony charges. When the other agency brought (as they called it) the "Aggressive Traffic Stop" into the county, I picked it up. It lasted 2min 48 seconds. The fleeing vehicle was just too reckless. I terminated the pursuit and 1/4 mile up the road, the bad guy slammed into a bus carrying a visiting college baseball team.

 

The result was 1 dead and 7 injured critically and other injuries.

 

Bad guy goes to court 2 years later gets life plus 30. His reason for fleeing?? First he said he didn't see us, second he said he was scared and that's why he didn't stop.

 

The family of the dead boy, the others that were injured and the ones who witnessed it in the second bus ALL were in favor of pursuits continuing. One of the players said, "If a few must die to keep the rest of us safe, well I guess it's worth it." He said this from the wheel chair he is now confined to.

 

The family of the bad guy attempted to sue for damages to the car.

 

As the officer was doing the chasing, well folks it's a horrible and sick feeling to carry with you. No matter how many years pass or many times others and the failies and the injured assure you that you did the right thing, you feel horrible. You remember the day like it was yesterday. It is the worst thing that can happen, death to an innocent as a result of you DOING your job. Remeber folks, LEO's are still people who hurt just like the guy who feeds the homeless or gal who helps the battered wife. I'm sorry that some can't identify with the enormous pressures that go with this job. Nobody ever died because a computer programmer wrote code wrong, or because the pixels were off on a picture or because their order at Burger Palace got mixed up. And if they did, while no less tragic, it wouldn't cause a great public uproar along these lines. So to those who want the cop investigated or the like, well that's going to happen and after the media storm and public outcry for his head subsides, he'll continue to live with the result and pain of the incident for the rest of his life, not carrer, life. For those who think a roadblock is the answer, well guess what? People can ride motors AROUND THEM. As for shooting the cyclist? Well I don't know about that either. And for those who really want to just moan about the cops hiding behind the uniform, well, you're the reasons we go out there everyday. I don't know if Jack Nicholson had it right in A Few Good Men when his character said something along the lines of "You sleep under the blanket of freedom I provide but then question the way I provide that very freedom. I'd rather you just say thank you." Sometimes the end justifies the means and sometimes it doesn't. If you want a safe society, sometimes the bill is very high for that safety.

 

I have nothing but respect for the difficult job that law enforcement is charged with. Frankly I cannot imagine being under the daily pressures facing the average cop when it comes to making these split second decisions, and I know it isn't a simple black and white question regarding pursuits. I do in fact have some experience with the LEO community thanks to some neighbors, and as I said, have nothing but respect for their line of work/job pressure. That being said, lots of these fleeing drivers are not guilty of much beyond traffic violations, and turning a no registration/speeding type offense into a life and death pursuit is not a good option. However if you do in fact know a car contains a bank robber/kidnapper I see no reason to automatically break off the pursuit, but I suspect this is the exception rather than the norm....

 

I love the line from Colors where an experienced officer, played by Robert Duval, is trying to train a young hotheaded rookie, played by Sean Penn...something like "These 2 bulls are standing on a hill overlooking a herd of cows the younger bull says to the older one," Hey lets run down there & screw one of those cows", to this the older bull replies, " No son, let's walk down there & screw them all."

 

[TyTass]

A moment of levity about your computer programmer comparison (and to make a point) …

 

No computer programmer I have known ever asked for respect, presumed that all computer programmers should be held blameless for their decisions of coding, or insinuated that the laws of his country, county, or municipality should be changed to make his job easier.

 

Now … more seriously …

 

As a military vet of well over 25 years I understand your viewpoint about the severity of consequences of your job. Here’s a comparison of my own. There are young soldiers and marines right now who are in a far more hostile environment - definitely beyond my experience and most LEOs for that matter (no this is not a hijack attempt and please let's keep this only to the point of comparison) - and they have gargantuan decisions to make on a moment-by-moment basis for months on end – to rise above their fears, to weigh the given information to protect themselves, to protect innocent Iraqis, and to not violate Rules of Engagement (ROE). [if they kill someone outside of the ROE and they are held responsible. ROE … agree or disagree - has been the nature of modern warefare such that the-down-in-the-weed private can no longer claim as a defense “I was ordered to gas those ten thousand Jews, your Honors.”).]

 

Yes … I (and millions of other civilians) understand well the notion that being an LEO is often a thankless profession. I understand that many people today have little respect for LEOs (and everything and everyone for that matter). I understand that people wrongly hold LEOs responsible (in opinion only, of course) for having to enforce bad policies and ridiculous laws.

 

But however unfortunate and difficult it is to make near instantaneous decisions on how to best protect the public, it is the job of LEOs to do so. And with that comes the responsibility for your decisions.

 

If while chasing a criminal you kill someone due to your decisions (and not actions of the "perp", your agency should be held responsible … and if you are operating outside of policy, you should be held personally responsible. The suspect caused the situation but not the LEOs bad decisions. That IS accountability, not the lack of it.

 

Most of the LEOs I know and many here on this board acknowledge that some chase policy is indeed necessary. I believe they exist for good reason. No point in arguing the details of each municipality. But the fact is these different policies exist because the people of those municipalities, counties, and commonwealths or states have mandated it via the legal processes in place. And that my friends, is the price of freedom and living in these United States.

[motorman587]

Isn't there a law that states if someones dies during the act of a felony, then the bad guy is held accountable. IE robbing a bank, victim runs out and get hit by a car and gets killed, isn't the bad guy held for that death??

[Agent_Orange]

Yep. In this state there is.

But I would assume that each state has it's own statutes that address that.

[Lawman]

BTW, I was the "victim" of a pursuit that ended in the deaths of two people. Fortunately the only dead and injured were in the stolen car I was chasing. I was placed on admin leave for one week while the CHP, district attorney and my department conducted a joint investigation and reconstruction into the circumstances of the fatility that occurred while these people were in my "custody". Three months later, I was subjected to a coroners inquest where a grand jury decides whether the death was accidental, intentional or at the "hands of another". Then I get to wait another year while the ineveitable civil lawsuit is filed charging me with federal civil rights violation. I was cleared in the end but was it worth to jeopardize my career and retirement to recover a stolen (and now totaled) $1500 Saturn?

 

Yes it was..Not for the value of the car but for the value of preserving a somewhat orderly society where people are governed by laws and those who break them are brought to justice. If we lose that we lose much more than a car.

Thanks for doing your job well and making the sacrifice required by our sometimes screwed up system.

[TyTass]

I'm absolutely certain there is. But I'm also certain that all such laws/policies are far more involved and explicit than how you just over-simplified it.

 

I didn't intend (and don't believe) I suggested that the perp wasn't responsible, or that he should get off scot-free. In fact I believe in EXTREMELY stiff penalties for those who flee.

 

I am addressing those who are of the opinion that there should be no limits as to how much risk LEOs should be permited to place the populace in general during in the pursuit of a fleeing suspect.

 

And at the risk of being insulting by overdramatizing the point ...

 

I ask if an LEO should be able to stop that fleeing pesuspect with a nuke weapon, and whether that would be a bad tactical choice.

 

On the other hand, if the perp has a nuke weapon, please KILL him!

[motorman587]

This starting to hurt my pea size brain and I need a beer. I am done with this thread, enjoy the remainder. I will on Monday still not be allow to chase anybody, so anymore posting here is waste of energy. BTW, I am to old to chase and even if I were allow to chase I do not think I would. I would have to be after 8A, waking up going to work, before 11A, lunch and before 3P, I get off.

[Lawman]

This starting to hurt my pea size brain and I need a beer. I am done with this thread, enjoy the remainder. I will on Monday still not be allow to chase anybody, so anymore posting here is waste of energy. BTW, I am to old to chase and even if I were allow to chase I do not think I would. I would have to be after 8A, waking up going to work, before 11A, lunch and before 3P, I get off.

 

 

I am still allowed to chase as my agency (which consists of me) still allows it.. I will continue to chase just as I did yesterday when I interrupted a 2006 Dodge Charger Hemi and a crotch rocket racing down my little stretch of highway..Both kids turned out to be locals.. I chased the car and ultimately caught it after a long scary pursuit that I too don't like doing..Kid is in jail charged with a felony and I believe that by doing so fewer kids will run from me, the rule of law has been enforced, and because of that our community is better off..

[Whip]

This starting to hurt my pea size brain and I need a beer. I am done with this thread, enjoy the remainder. I will on Monday still not be allow to chase anybody, so anymore posting here is waste of energy. BTW, I am to old to chase and even if I were allow to chase I do not think I would. I would have to be after 8A, waking up going to work, before 11A, lunch and before 3P, I get off.

 

 

I am still allowed to chase as my agency (which consists of me) still allows it.. I will continue to chase just as I did yesterday when I interrupted a 2006 Dodge Charger Hemi and a crotch rocket racing down my little stretch of highway..Both kids turned out to be locals.. I chased the car and ultimately caught it after a long scary pursuit that I too don't like doing..Kid is in jail charged with a felony and I believe that by doing so fewer kids will run from me, the rule of law has been enforced, and because of that our community is better off..

 

 

 

What happen to the "crotch rocket" rider......did ya vist his house yet?????

 

 

Your Future Deputy.

Whip

[PRC]

In response to your comparison:

No computer programmer I have known ever asked for respect, presumed that all computer programmers should be held blameless for their decisions of coding, or insinuated that the laws of his country, county, or municipality should be changed to make his job easier.

 

Guess Bill Gates never came to mind???

 

I am well versed on ROE's and why they are there. I also have knowledge of what the Marines are facing in the "Sandbox." But I am not there now, thus I can't judge the actions they take. To compare a ROE decision to "I was following an order" is wrong. The two are far different.

If while chasing a criminal you kill someone due to your decisions (and not actions of the "perp", your agency should be held responsible … and if you are operating outside of policy, you should be held personally responsible.

 

Without a doubt, I agree with you. In the situation being discussed here, in this thread, that is not applicable.

If the bad guy/gal runs, he/she should be responsible for all that occurs in the wake of the crime. It's very very simple, all they have to do is..........S T O P! Granted there are over zealous everythings (cops, doctors, ditch diggers, whatever..) but those are a minority and do we really want to throw out the whole barrel because of a few bad apples?? Folks are painting with a very big brush (size of Burmuda) here and it's a shame, they're a whole lot smarter then that.

 

And to put those who may wonder, yes, I also think that each pursuit should be based on it's own merits...not just a blanket run 'em til the wheels fall off. Time of day, Wx conditions, skill of the LEO, age of offender, mechanical status of BOTH vehicles......

Oh wait, I sound like my agency's policy manual!

[GoGo Gadget]

This starting to hurt my pea size brain and I need a beer. I am done with this thread, enjoy the remainder. I will on Monday still not be allow to chase anybody, so anymore posting here is waste of energy. BTW, I am to old to chase and even if I were allow to chase I do not think I would. I would have to be after 8A, waking up going to work, before 11A, lunch and before 3P, I get off.

 

 

I am still allowed to chase as my agency (which consists of me) still allows it.. I will continue to chase just as I did yesterday when I interrupted a 2006 Dodge Charger Hemi and a crotch rocket racing down my little stretch of highway..Both kids turned out to be locals.. I chased the car and ultimately caught it after a long scary pursuit that I too don't like doing..Kid is in jail charged with a felony and I believe that by doing so fewer kids will run from me, the rule of law has been enforced, and because of that our community is better off..

 

Hey that is funny, I chased a crotchrocket in my 2006 Dodge Charger patrol car and he went to jail charged with a felony, reckless driving and driving on suspended O/L.

[Lawman]

"What happen to the "crotch rocket" rider......did ya vist his house yet?????

 

 

Your Future Deputy.

Whip "

You wouldn't like the pay nor the benefits...

 

Talking to his parents is a waste of time..Visited them many times..Last time I did his dad asked me why I was bothering his kid and stated "don't you have anything else to do?" He's another that's in the "the risk doesn't outweigh the benefit" crowd.

[upflying]

Isn't there a law that states if someones dies during the act of a felony, then the bad guy is held accountable. IE robbing a bank, victim runs out and get hit by a car and gets killed, isn't the bad guy held for that death??

You are thinking of the felony-murder rule.

http://www.answers.com/topic/felony-murder-rule

[bvaughan]

I don't know if Jack Nicholson had it right in A Few Good Men when his character said something along the lines of "You sleep under the blanket of freedom I provide but then question the way I provide that very freedom. I'd rather you just say thank you." Sometimes the end justifies the means and sometimes it doesn't.

Discussions like this get kinda complicated and don't go away. Nicholson's character Colonel Jessup didn't exactly finish wreathed in glory. The clip with the quote is here. If you had been on the tail of that badguy when he plowed into the bus, i suspect you woulda felt a lot worse when it was over. you sure as heck didn't cause it by backing off, whether policy called for it or not.

[motorman587]

So, if I read it correctly, police car crashes kills people, the suspect if caught, should be charge with manslaughter.

[MadDuck]

I have only one personal "experience" with this issue. I was "chased" for twenty miles on two lane roads in Colorado by a sheriff. The only problem was I never knew he was back there, he had to turn from an opposing lane. He was never within five cars of me till we got to town and he had no accurate speed reading on me so he pulled this dangerous driving and pursuit crap on me. Bike was impounded and I spent the night in jail and saw a judge in the morning. I walked and the judge told me I would have excellent ground for lawsuit as I could not have possibly known I was being pursued. Intent is everything where pursuit is involved. Just becuase the officer can't catch you doesn't mean you are "fleeing". He has to prove, criminal case beyond a reasonable doubt, that you were in fact fleeing his lawful pursuit. Flight and lawful are both arguable in court. Twenty years later and I am still pissed at what that dumbass put me thru.

[Lawman]

I have only one personal "experience" with this issue. I was "chased" for twenty miles on two lane roads in Colorado by a sheriff. The only problem was I never knew he was back there, he had to turn from an opposing lane. He was never within five cars of me till we got to town and he had no accurate speed reading on me so he pulled this dangerous driving and pursuit crap on me. Bike was impounded and I spent the night in jail and saw a judge in the morning. I walked and the judge told me I would have excellent ground for lawsuit as I could not have possibly known I was being pursued. Intent is everything where pursuit is involved. Just becuase the officer can't catch you doesn't mean you are "fleeing". He has to prove, criminal case beyond a reasonable doubt, that you were in fact fleeing his lawful pursuit. Flight and lawful are both arguable in court. Twenty years later and I am still pissed at what that dumbass put me thru.

 

Twenty miles!!!!!!!Either you were going so fast you deserved to spend the night in jail or he was driving so slow he shouldn't be allowed to drive....

[MadDuck]

Visit scenic colorado in July on a weekend. Pick your favorite canyon road. Miles and miles of beutiful corners and scenery. Now litter it with 50 foot motorhomes pulling boats and enclosed trailers. You may travel 40 miles behind one of those going 20mph before any opportunity to pass. Remember those things are in both lanes. Usually the highway dept has laid out really "greasy" longitudinal tar snakes that melt in the afternoon sun. Turnouts are always littered with them with families taking pictures and sometimes backing up into the traffic lanes for a better perspective. Police rarely patrol those highways on weekends.

 

I've never understood why a boat and a trailer can both be towed by the same vehicle at the same time, touring by motorcyle is so much easier.

[AZKomet]

I thought they where just suppose to get the

license plate number and pick them up later.

Must have wanted this guy real bad.

 

I have been involved in many, many high speed chases and often wondered why the perps do it?? Often times it is the chase instinct that compels LEO's to do this. It doesn't say how long the pursuit was going on and the conditions it took place in. Most if not all departments have policies in place to cover these types of things. I hate to judge the LEO's based on limited info. I wonder what the LEO's supervisor was doing at the time?? This is a tragic event that will no doubt continue with a tort action against the dept. It will also bring about change I am sure although the lesson learned may be costly for all. Hope they find the perp and he is charged accordingly.