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More Electrical Questions (I still have a gremlin)


OlGeezer

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I have my V1 wired to my parking light circuit. It seems that, when I have the fog lamps on and the V1 on, either the load relief relay will blow or the lighting relay will blow. Sometimes neither blows, but the fog lights stop working and the load relief relay is extremely warm. In this circumstance, I pull out the load relief relay and put it back it. The fog lamps work after that.

 

When I leave one or the other off, I don't seem to have a problem.

 

According to the specs, the V1 will draw less than 1/2 amp at full alarm. I'm no ET, but that doesn't seem like enough to cause a problem. Maybe it's the spikes, I dunno.

 

Short (no pun intended) of the obvious possible wiring failures (pinched, shorted, etc.), is it possible I have too much connected to one relay (or the other)? I have no idea how to determine what the capacity of a relay is. I've just recently figured out how to test to see if they are good.

 

I'm thinking about moving the V1 to the radio circuit. Since I have no radio, it will have that circuit all to itself and I don't believe that circuit passes through a relay at all.

 

TIA,

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Jerry Johnston

Most relay are rated for contact current which won't help you much. You're on the right rtack though just move it over to the radio circuit or direct to the battery, maybe even the accessory socket. However the accessory socket gets loaded pretty heavy as it is.

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Dont bike relays get weak after they trip a few times??Car relays do!!Id try a new relay first,Relayes do go bad...

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Most relay are rated for contact current which won't help you much. You're on the right rtack though just move it over to the radio circuit or direct to the battery, maybe even the accessory socket. However the accessory socket gets loaded pretty heavy as it is.

 

I originally had it wired directly to the battery but I kept forgetting to turn it off. That's probably one reason why my Westco only lasted 30 months (but nearly 50k miles!).

 

Thanks for the response.

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Dont bike relays get weak after they trip a few times??Car relays do!!Id try a new relay first,Relayes do go bad...

 

I've tried sooooo many new relays, my "relay budget" is starting to challenge my tire budget.

 

They are new. Trust me on this one.

 

bncry.gif

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Put in you own relay,Tie it into a keyed power,,Relays are easy to do,, thumbsup.gifAEROSTITCH SELLS A RELAY,HAS ALL THE INFO WITH IT TO DO THE JOB..

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I have my V1 wired to my parking light circuit. It seems that, when I have the fog lamps on and the V1 on, either the load relief relay will blow or the lighting relay will blow. Sometimes neither blows, but the fog lights stop working and the load relief relay is extremely warm. In this circumstance, I pull out the load relief relay and put it back it. The fog lamps work after that.

 

When I leave one or the other off, I don't seem to have a problem.

 

According to the specs, the V1 will draw less than 1/2 amp at full alarm. I'm no ET, but that doesn't seem like enough to cause a problem. Maybe it's the spikes, I dunno.

 

Short (no pun intended) of the obvious possible wiring failures (pinched, shorted, etc.), is it possible I have too much connected to one relay (or the other)? I have no idea how to determine what the capacity of a relay is. I've just recently figured out how to test to see if they are good.

 

I'm thinking about moving the V1 to the radio circuit. Since I have no radio, it will have that circuit all to itself and I don't believe that circuit passes through a relay at all.

 

TIA,

 

Bill either your V1 is drawing more than you think or your set-up is overloading the small parking light wiring & therefore overloading the park light circuit..

 

You really should add a stand alone relay for your V1 & power that circuit directly from the battery.. Very easy to do with a small Bosch relay.. You can use your parking light circuit to operate the relay with virtually no load on the park light circuit.. With a stand alone relay any excess or heavy V1 load will be on the added fuse & if fused below about 15 amps it will keep from damaging your added relay & park light circuit.. (safest way to wire it)..

 

Twisty

PowerRelay.jpg

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Something strange is going on... your V1 only draws a few hundred milliamps (or at least mine does) and hard to believe that this slight extra draw on a fog lamp circuit could push you over the edge unless some other problem exists. If you can borrow (or buy, they're not that expensive) a multimeter and measure the current draw of everything on the circuit you will know what is going on vs. having to guess. Your V1 may be drawing excessive current although that is a rather unlikely problem. More likely you have a bad connection somewhere (a voltmeter will tell you this, check the voltage at various places in the circuit and you can see if/where a drop occurs, indicating a high-resistance connection.) I would also check out the relay sockets carefully to see that the female contacts are all in good condition.

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Can you put your meter in series in place of the relay to check the amp draw on the circuit?

 

Could it be the coil of the relay that is drawing too much current?

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Can you put your meter in series in place of the relay to check the amp draw on the circuit?

 

Could it be the coil of the relay that is drawing too much current?

 

Quinn, most of those small inexpensive multi meters will only measure up to 10 amps of current or the internal fuse will blow.. If he is frying or overheating relays the draw would probably be exceeding that by a measurable amount.. Even my expensive Fluke will only measure 10 amps max..

 

He can’t pull the relay & measure the controlled side (coil side) as that would be a direct short & be a worthless measurement .. He could measure across the points side (controlling side) but to overheat or fry a relay that would more than likely be above 10 amps so the meter will probably pop a fuse..

 

He could leave the relay in the circuit & measure for voltage drop throughout both the controlled & controlling side of the circuit but it might be difficult to pinpoint the exact problem point that way as the relay seems to be overheating so there would a voltage drop right there but the overload could be caused by a short to ground somewhere else farther down stream..

 

If he wires it as a stand alone circuit relayed & fused directly from the battery it will be easy to isolate the park light side from the V1 side.. If the original bike relay still acts up after the stand alone V1 relay is installed his problem isn’t the V1 or it’s related circuit but a problem in the basic bike wiring or relay socket.. If he blows the added circuit fuse then his problem is with the V1 wiring or the V1 itself..

 

Twisty

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If he wires it as a stand alone circuit relayed & fused directly from the battery it will be easy to isolate the park light side from the V1 side.. If the original bike relay still acts up after the stand alone V1 relay is installed his problem isn’t the V1 or it’s related circuit but a problem in the basic bike wiring or relay socket.. If he blows the added circuit fuse then his problem is with the V1 wiring or the V1 itself..

 

Twisty

 

This is great stuff, Twisty. It took me a while to figure out the schematic you provided (nice job, BTW). Let me see if I understand it correctly. Running the parking light circuit through the relay makes the V1 a switched device because the current flow closes the circuit. The V1 circuit is protected by the fuse. Is that close?

 

Now I have some questions.

 

Where do I physically mount the new relay?

 

What would be wrong with putting the V1 on the radio circuit (I don't have a radio) and replace the 4A fuse with a 15A fuse? I think this would be simpler, but the concept might be flawed.

 

Are there local sources for the Bosch relay? I would like to get the bike fixed this w/e, so ordering from Aerostitch is a problem.

 

But I agree with you. If I first isolate the V1, then I can determine if the problem is with an existing circuit or the V1 itself.

 

Thanks again,

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Bill,

 

~””Let me see if I understand it correctly. Running the parking light circuit through the relay makes the V1 a switched device because the current flow closes the (RELAY) circuit. The V1 circuit is protected by the fuse. Is that close?””___ Yes, you have it .. The park light circuit powers up the relay (very low current draw on the parking light circuit as that relay coil is almost no load).. The fuse you add would fully protect both the added relay & the V1 load..

 

 

 

Now I have some questions.

 

“”Where do I physically mount the new relay?””___ About anywhere you want to.. You can fuse right at the battery connection (I would suggest a sealed fuse holder) then run both the power & ground forward under the fuel tank inside that black convoluted plastic wire protection.. Then install the relay under the front fairing (ie tie strap it to the radio harness).. You can then control the relay using your current parking light wire that now goes to your V1..

 

“”What would be wrong with putting the V1 on the radio circuit (I don't have a radio) and replace the 4A fuse with a 15A fuse? I think this would be simpler, but the concept might be flawed””___ Actually you can (but not like you think though).. There are two power sources to the radio connector one is the fused (keep alive) circuit you talk of but that doesn’t shut off with the ign switch.. The other is switched from the ign switch but that ties back into your bikes electrical circuit like you have now.. You can use a little square (Bosh type) relay as mentioned above & control the relay with the ign switched wires in that radio connector going to relay term. #85.. Then use the full time powered wire in the radio connector to hook to relay term. # 30 (that is fed by the fused radio fuse in the bike’s fuse box).. then ground relay term. # 86 to the ground wire in the radio connector,, then hook relay term. #87 to the V1 load.. Due to the wiring size going to that radio connector I would suggest no more than a 10 amp fuse in the fuse box fro the power side of that circuit..

I am powering my GPS from that radio connector so am only using a 4 amp fuse in the bike’s radio cavity of the fuse box..

If you decide to use the under fairing factory radio connector G.M. weather pack female terminals will push right on those round pin BMW radio terminals.. Just cover each individual terminal with heat shrink tubing to isolate them from each other & push them on the factory radio connector pins..

 

“”Are there local sources for the Bosch relay? I would like to get the bike fixed this w/e, so ordering from Aerostitch is a problem.””___ Yes, about ANY local auto parts store will have those little square Bosh type relays (doesn’t have to be an actual Bosch brand).. Just print out the schematic I posted & take it with you to the auto parts store & they should be able to fix you right up (including push on wire terminals)..

 

“”But I agree with you. If I first isolate the V1, then I can determine if the problem is with an existing circuit or the V1 itself.””___ That would be the most efficient way of ISOLATING your problem.. Even if you don’t use an isolation power relay but just power the V1 from the battery using a 10 amp fuse & common toggle switch that will allow you to isolate the V1 from the bike’s wiring & relay system & that will allow you to tell if your problem is V1 induced or an inherent bike system problem.. In most cases you have to isolate your problem to be able to separate it from the complexity of the entire system..

 

Twisty

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I have to agree with Seth, something else is up here beyond just having the V1 hooked up. There would be smoke coming out of it before it in itself could cause a relay to die.

 

Still, simple answer to eliminate the V1 as the culprit is as you suggest, to move it to the switched radio power circuit. And for such a small drain as a V1, I wouldn't even bother relaying it there with a new its own relay. The current drain of the original spec'ed relay is greater than your V1. You could relay it there as Twisty is suggesting, and it won't hurt anything to do so beyond adding complexity, but in this case I think it is unnecessary.

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Ken, the problem with just tying it into the switched radio circuit is that is not a stand alone fused circuit.. The full-time-power radio keep alive circuit is fused as a stand alone but not the switched side of the radio circuit.. So in effect he would still be tying the V1 into the bike’s electrical system on the same side of the load relief relay..

 

I don’t believe his problem is the actual V1 itself,, if it was you would think if it had enough draw to overheat a relay it would have blown the parking light circuit a long time ago..

 

He needs to isolate the V1 & all his added wiring from the main bike’s electrical system that is powered from the ign switch & load relief relay to prove his problem is yes or no in the actual V1 or V1 wiring..

 

Twisty

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The current drain of the original spec'ed relay is greater than your V1.
A good point which I forgot to make. I can't see why one would switch such a low-current device as a radar detector with a relay, and as Ken noted the Bosch relay will probably draw more current than the radar detector itself. Using a relay would allow you to switch a direct battery connection, but I can't see why that would be necessary for a radar detector. Certainly no harm, but no need either.

 

Anyway, people go at troubleshooting different ways and all suggestions are valid. Personally I would take measurements rather than move things around and make inferences, but both will work. My concern is that you may isolate the V1 and solve your immediate problem, but not the real underlying issue.

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DavidEBSmith

I've measured the current draw on my V1, and never seen as much as 0.5 amp. Maybe 0.2 amp at startup with the lights and audio going. And it's not an inductive load that would be hard on the relay contacts.

 

Remember that we're talking about load on the switched side of the load shed relay. I can't find a rating on that relay, but I would be shocked (no pun intended) if it was less than a 30 amp relay. The load it's shedding would be several amps (e.g. 55W headlight = 4.5 amps), so another 0.5 amps shouldn't make any difference.

 

First thing to check is the wiring to the V1 to measure what it's actually drawing. Let me recommend a clamp-on DC ammeter like the Craftsman #03482369000 (Sears.com links are too ugly to provide direct). It's $60 and just clamps around one of the wires in the circuit to measure current. (If you look at some other make or model, make sure it measures DC current as well as AC current). Then see if you can find a wire from the output side of the load shed relay and measure the current in that.

 

It's also weird that the relay "blows". That sounds like sticky contacts or something mechanical hanging up inside the relay. Have you tried replacing the load shed relay with a new one?

 

It takes a lot of current to get relay contacts to stick, or a big spike or inrush. The load shed relay should be capable of handling almost everything on the bike short of the starter. If there was a big current drain being switched by the load shed relay, big enough to stick the contacts on the relay, I would think you'd have wires melting or your battery would be draining or fuses would be blowing.

 

I don't think putting the V1 on a separate circuit will help, either, except that you may have some strange loop in the wiring that's causing a heavy current draw when you hit the starter, and maybe by connecting things different you might accidentally eliminate it.

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Yes, in a perfect world that V1 should draw well under .5 amps,, unless all the bells & whistles are going off then probably closer to .5 amps or so.. But if that V1 & it’s added circuitry were ONLY drawing .5 amps then he wouldn’t have a problem with his load relay overheating due to (a possible) V1 connection.. (if in fact theV1 is even the problem)

 

I do agree if all is well with the V1 & it’s wiring he could power it from about any 12-14 volt source with no problems what so ever.. That doesn’t seem to be the case with his set-up though..

 

The easy thing to do is remove the V1 power source from ALL the load relay controlled systems & power it on it’s own battery direct circuit.. That will tell if his problem is really V1 induced or he has another non V1 related issue..

 

There are many ways to do that from the simple of just hooking V1 to the battery posts with an inline fuse to adding a stand alone power source to only power the V1..

 

Apparently he wants the system to be operational while he is testing & working with it & he also wants it to be transparent as far as forgetting to turn it off.. The easy way to accomplish that is with an isolation relay & separate fused circuit directly from the battery.. The added relay is not a power relay as such but more of an isolation relay..

 

Once he has the V1 & ALL the V1 wiring isolated from the bike’s main electrical system it will become quite evident if the V1 is or isn’t the cause..

 

Twisty

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I've measured the current draw on my V1, and never seen as much as 0.5 amp. Maybe 0.2 amp at startup with the lights and audio going.

 

I'm only going by the published specs on the unit. They say 0.4+ somthing "at full alarm".

 

 

Have you tried replacing the load shed relay with a new one?

 

Several times. When I say "blown", I mean destroyed. When I say "tripped", I mean that I can pull it out, put it back in and everything works O.K.

 

or your battery would be draining

 

My battery DID die in Auburn. It was 30 months old, although it did have nearly 50k miles on it. It was a Westco.

 

Thanks for the diagnostic help.

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Apparently he wants the system to be operational while he is testing & working with it & he also wants it to be transparent as far as forgetting to turn it off.

 

Twisty

 

Yes, I do want the V1 on a switched circuit. I originally had it wired (and fused) to the battery, but I forgot to turn it off too often to feel comfortable with that arrangement. Heck, I've been known to get off the bike and forget to put the kickstand down.

smirk.gif

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DavidEBSmith

When I say "blown", I mean destroyed.

 

Wha? I don't have a wiring diagram for your bike, but it's hard for me to understand how you could draw enough current to destroy a relay and not blow a fuse. Unless somehow you have some high-power circuit running through the relay coil circuit somehow. But that's pretty much just battery - starter relay - ignition switch. You should not be able to melt the contacts with anything on the bike other than the battery-to-starter motor current.

 

There's something very weird going on if you're blowing up relays. I have a real concern that if you just move the V1 onto its own circuit without figuring out what the underlying problem is, you'll just mask that problem and you'll burn up your wiring harness someday.

 

Here's what we know:

 

- The V1 should draw no more than 0.5 amps which is a negligible load for the shed relay.

 

- The shed relay has way too much current going through it.

 

Question 1 is, Is the V1 defective and drawing way too much current? Get a clamp-on ammeter or put a fuseholder in line just before the V1 and put a 1 amp fuse in it and see if that blows. If it does, the V1 is defective and you send it in for repair. If not, there's a wiring issue upstream.

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Jerry Johnston
Dont bike relays get weak after they trip a few times??Car relays do!!Id try a new relay first,Relayes do go bad...
The relay gets bad contacts caused by a slight arcing when they close so that eventually you no longer have a closed circuit. If you get too high an arc you can fuse the contact so it won't open at all. Sometimes you'll find a capacitor across the relay to help eliminate arcing.
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Jerry Johnston

I connected my V1 to hte parking lamp on my 96rt and have never had a problem.

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Yes, I do want the V1 on a switched circuit. I originally had it wired (and fused) to the battery, but I forgot to turn it off too often to feel comfortable with that arrangement. Heck, I've been known to get off the bike and forget to put the kickstand down.

smirk.gif

 

Bill,

Just use your switched radio power to run the V1. The radio circuit is NOT a part of the Load shed relay's load. The radio is powered directly off the ignition switch and through F3 15A fuse.

Use the Red/White wire from the radio power plug. It is switched. The Violet/Red wire is the 12V keep-alive voltage. You do not want to use that wire.

 

I agree with Seth, you have something else going on here.

 

FYI, the parking lamp circuit does not go through the load-shed relay either. It is powered from the ignition switch and fed via F2 4A fuse. You can test this, watch the parking lamp while cranking, it might dim but it will still be lit, unlike your headlamp.

 

Mick

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FYI, the parking lamp circuit does not go through the load-shed relay either. It is powered from the ignition switch and fed via F2 4A fuse. You can test this, watch the parking lamp while cranking, it might dim but it will still be lit, unlike your headlamp.

 

Mick

 

I'm aware that the parking lamp (side light) is not on the same circuit as the load shed relay (load relief relay). What's unusual is that both my V1 and my SmartTire device are connected to the same (side light) circuit, yet they both go out when I start the bike and come back on when the bike starts as if they are on the same circuit as the load relief relay. My wiring diagrams can be found here and here .

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What's unusual is that both my V1 and my SmartTire device are connected to the same (side light) circuit, yet they both go out when I start the bike and come back on when the bike starts as if they are on the same circuit as the load relief relay.
All that's happening is the system voltage is dropping (due to the starter load) below the point that your V1 and tire monitor need to operate so they shut down temporarily. This is not unusual, my V1 also power cycles during a start.
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I'm aware that the parking lamp (side light) is not on the same circuit as the load shed relay (load relief relay). What's unusual is that both my V1 and my SmartTire device are connected to the same (side light) circuit, yet they both go out when I start the bike and come back on when the bike starts as if they are on the same circuit as the load relief relay. My wiring diagrams can be found here and here .

 

 

Bill,

Seth already gave you the answer. When the system voltage is below what is required to run the attached device, it will power off. Watch your parking lamp closely during cranking. It 'should' glow dimly.

 

Mick

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FYI, the parking lamp circuit does not go through the load-shed relay either. It is powered from the ignition switch and fed via F2 4A fuse. You can test this, watch the parking lamp while cranking, it might dim but it will still be lit, unlike your headlamp.

 

Mick

 

I'm aware that the parking lamp (side light) is not on the same circuit as the load shed relay (load relief relay). What's unusual is that both my V1 and my SmartTire device are connected to the same (side light) circuit, yet they both go out when I start the bike and come back on when the bike starts as if they are on the same circuit as the load relief relay. My wiring diagrams can be found here and here .

 

Bill, I have an 02 R1150RT & both the tail light & parking light GO COMPLETELY OUT, not just dim but completely out during cranking.. Fuse #2 & fuse #4 lose power while cranking.. So either the wire diagram is incorrect (not unusual on a Clymer diagram) or there was a non recorded running change on the 02 RT wiring, or the ign switch doesn’t connect all those terminals together as the diagram shows..

 

Twisty

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Twisty Bill,

 

I wasn't using a Clymer, I used the official BMW wiring diagram and I guess that too would be obsolete if they made a running change after they printed them.

 

Mick

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Mick, it looks like a lot of 1100/1150 BMW’s shut the #2 fuse down with the load relay & therefore shut off the tail/parking lights during cranking..

 

I had my friend check his 1100 GS & it shuts the parking light/tail lights off during cranking.. A friend was over a while ago with his 1100RT & it does the same thing.. (so there are 2 early 1100’s that also shut the park/tail lights off during cranking)

 

In looking at the wire diagrams of the bikes it looks like it might be a USA bike only thing as they use no headlight switch but instead us that jumper.. I think the wire diagram is confusing on the ign switch pin-out as it looks like in the ON position all 5 terminals are hooked together & also to the red battery power wire .. I don’t believe that to be the case but believe the 2 right terminals are stand alone & ONLY hook together (not into the red power wire) in the ON position.. It looks like that was done so that in the PARK position only the #2 fuse could be directly powered from the red battery power wire to get parking lights & tail lights without anything else..

 

I’ll bet if we get some more feed back here we will find a lot of American 1100/1150 BMW’s shut the tail lights & parking light completely off during cranking..

 

Twisty

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I have BMW schematics; they are just too hard for this noobie to read. I will give it another shot and report back. In the meantime, I might have something actually related to solving the problem. I put my VM into pins 1 and 2 of a known good relay and got a voltage drop of about 12.5 volts. I did the same in light relay socket and got 11.5 volts.

 

Here is a picture:

 

P6050137sm.jpg

 

whaddaya think of that?

 

Now, if I can only find a replacement socket. I don't think BMW sells them separately.

 

Sigh...

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I just pulled up the diagram for my '96 R1100RT and the tail and parking lamp are powered from the ignition switch via F2 and it's a Gray wire to the fuse box and a Gray/White wire from there to the connectors. I'll have to watch the parking lamp closely the next time I dig it out for a ride.

 

Mick

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Bill, it looks like you might have found a definite problem there..

 

That is a special looking Bosch relay socket.. You might try Beemer Bone Yard..

 

If you can’t find a true BMW socket give me an E-Mail,, I have some real Bosch relay sockets that will probably work but won’t have those fancy relay retaining plastic clips & won’t snap into the stock fuse box the same way as that one did but it should fit the relay just fine & will go back into the cavity in the fuse box (just wont snap in)..

 

Twisty

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I just pulled up the diagram for my '96 R1100RT and the tail and parking lamp are powered from the ignition switch via F2 and it's a Gray wire to the fuse box and a Gray/White wire from there to the connectors. I'll have to watch the parking lamp closely the next time I dig it out for a ride.

 

Mick

Mick, I have the same wire diagrams (or at least close) .. My guess is those diagrams are a little deceiving.. I’m with you on the gray wire from the ign switch powers the #2 fuse but my contention is the gray wire in the ign switch ISN’T powered from the red battery wire at the ign switch but is instead powered form the terminal next to it ONLY & that wire receives it’s power from the load relay through the USA light switch jumper.. (at least that is what I am thinking based on my 02 RT & the other two 1100’s that shut the #2 fuse down on cranking)..

 

Twisty

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Thanks, Twisty.

 

I have my local BMW dealer looking into it.

 

In the meantime, how do I swap them out? Do the wires just pull out of the socket? How much force? What tool should I use? What should I watch out for (so that I don't make the problem worse)?

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Check this out:

P6050141.jpg

 

That yellow wire with the red strip is to my fog lights.

 

I think I might have found the gremlin!

 

clap.gif

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DavidEBSmith

But is that the cause or the effect?

 

Is the circuit drawing lots of power because the wire is effed up or is the wire melted and effed up because the circuit is drawing too much power?

 

In any case, that's not a good thing.

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Since the damage is right at that spot I'd guess that there was a bad connection at the female spade connector for the relay (as I suggested earlier), causing it to get hot. As I also suggested earlier... measure the current draw so you'll know whether this was the cause or the effect.

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Thanks, Twisty.

 

I have my local BMW dealer looking into it.

 

In the meantime, how do I swap them out? Do the wires just pull out of the socket? How much force? What tool should I use? What should I watch out for (so that I don't make the problem worse)?

 

 

Bill, seeing as that picture you posted is of a failed relay socket/terminal of the FOG LIGHT socket & of the yellow wire terminal in particular,, is that the ONLY relay you are failing? --You were talking earlier of the LOAD RELIEF RELAY failing??? --Is that (load relief) also failing or just this one fog lamp relay,, (the fog lamp relay only)??

 

What you probably should do now that you have some definitions of the failure mode is to start a NEW thread showing that failure picture & listing what you do know has failed & why.. This thread has pretty well run it’s course with lots of side issues..

 

OK, I will add a little more here on your questions but you should still start a new thread so we can start fresh based on what’s known NOW..

 

Fist off,, I agree with Seth in that it does look like a failed terminal due to resistance in that terminal (if those terminals lose spring tension they burn up pretty quickly under laod)..

 

Seeing as that yellow wire is the power wire FROM the relay to The fog lights themselves it shouldn’t have any DIRECT load bearing issues on the load relief relay so if you are also failing the load relief relay you have other issues than that one failed relay terminal..

 

You don’t mention also failing the #10 (fog light) fuse so even with that failing terminal you haven’t exceeded the #10 fuse rating so we know circuit amperage hasn’t gone that high..

 

There is a few things you probably should check___

 

-See what the fuse rating is on your #10 fuse (you probably don’t want over a 15 amp fuse in there).. You want that fuse to pop before relay damage occurs..

 

-Make sure you have the correct fog lamp bulbs in place (if someone has installed high wattage fog lamp bulbs at one time that could be an issue)..

 

-You can try measuring the fog lamp circuit load but that could easily exceed the current measuring capacity of a small inexpensive multi-meter (especially on initial lights on).. In any case you know it is below the #10 fuse rating so if you have a 15 amp fuse in there the draw is less than 15 amps (just for grins you can install a 10 amp fuse in the #10 fuse slot to see if that stays intact,, if so you know your draw is lass than 10 amps on that yellow wire circuit..

 

-If you are in fact ALSO failing the load relief relay then MAKE DARN sure you are using the correct fog lamp relay (both relay type & correct relay pin out).. About the ONLY way that fog light relay could overload the load relief relay is if you were/are using the wrong relay in the fog light position as the coil side of the fog lamp relay doesn’t interface with the (points) load side of the fog relay (except if the relay internals are incorrect for the application)..

 

OK, now on your question of the socket removal (I presume you mean terminal removal from the socket?).. If you look down into the terminal area you should be able to see little barbs sticking out on both sides of the terminals.. You need to use 2 terminal picks (or very small screw drivers) & depress BOTH barbs at the same time while pulling the terminal out the bottom (those basic Bosch terminals are NOT pull-to-seat so they come out the bottom of the socket).. I posted a picture a while ago so if you still have that good if not let me know & I will E-Mail it to you..

Don’t pull anything out yet until you determine if you can get a new socket.. If you can’t get a new relay socket there IS a way to repair that one you have.. It involves working with ONLY that one burnt cavity so you won’t even have to pull the other terminals out of the socket.. Let me know if you can’t get a new socket & I will supply the repair procedure..

 

Twisty

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The relay is failing because the terminal gets very hot from the bad connection and is transferring the heat to the relay causing internal damage, probably an open. Very common, that was the giveaway that it was probably a bad relay socket terminal.

 

If the circuit is drawing too much current to measure on a typical multimeter you can measure the resistance of the circuit and use Ohm's Law, divide the voltage by the measured resistance and you will have the current, i.e. 13 / (measured resistance) = current.

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But is that the cause or the effect?

 

I'm hoping that it's the cause (primary). In either case, I need to fix this before I go any further.

 

In any case, that's not a good thing.

 

Agreed.

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If the circuit is drawing too much current to measure on a typical multimeter you can measure the resistance of the circuit and use Ohm's Law, divide the voltage by the measured resistance and you will have the current, i.e. 13 / (measured resistance) = current.

 

I measured only 0.5 ohms, but with the circuit charged, I did have a 1v drop at this location. That's too much, right?

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If the circuit is drawing too much current to measure on a typical multimeter you can measure the resistance of the circuit and use Ohm's Law, divide the voltage by the measured resistance and you will have the current, i.e. 13 / (measured resistance) = current.

 

I measured only 0.5 ohms, but with the circuit charged, I did have a 1v drop at this location. That's too much, right?

 

Bill, you can't get a meaninful resistance reading with the system charged,, & using a cold (no load) resistance to calculate circuit current is far from accurate on lighting circuits or circuits with load related resistance increase.. You need the lighting filaments to be up to operating temp & similar circuit current loading of the failing terminal connections to get them hot & increase their resistance to working load resistance state,, those small digital meters are such high impedance that they apply virtually no loading to the system.. I would think using operating circuit voltage drop or even specific terminal voltage drop would be much more accurate..

 

Your imediate problem on that fog light relay is HEAT.. That heat comes from resistance in that specific terminal not total circuit load or resistance.. If you want something meaningful measure the voltage at fuse #10 then compare that to the voltage at one of the fog light sockets.. Or better yet place the (+) lead of your voltmeter on the #10 fuse & the (-) lead on the power at one of the fog light sockets,, that will give you a real good idea of voltage drop in the fog light circuit..

 

One volt drop across any one terminal or location would be way too much..

 

Twisty

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What you probably should do now that you have some definitions of the failure mode is to start a NEW thread showing that failure picture & listing what you do know has failed & why.. This thread has pretty well run it’s course with lots of side issues.

 

OK, I will add a little more here on your questions but you should still start a new thread so we can start fresh based on what’s known NOW..

 

No side issues created by me. I'm still trying to find and fix a gremlin. Due to my lack of electrical knowledge, I still have More Electrical Questions .

smirk.gif

Seeing as that yellow wire is the power wire FROM the relay to The fog lights themselves it shouldn’t have any DIRECT load bearing issues on the load relief relay so if you are also failing the load relief relay you have other issues than that one failed relay terminal..

 

Your electrical knowledge is much greater than mine, but since the fog lamps are connected to the load relief relay, is it possible that when the yellow wire with red strip that goes into the light relay shorts, it causes too much (amperage) load on the load relief relay and it trips?

You don’t mention also failing the #10 (fog light) fuse so even with that failing terminal you haven’t exceeded the #10 fuse rating so we know circuit amperage hasn’t gone that high..

Correct. I've checked all my fuses; not just visually but also with a continuity tester.

There is a few things you probably should check___

 

-See what the fuse rating is on your #10 fuse (you probably don’t want over a 15 amp fuse in there).. You want that fuse to pop before relay damage occurs..

 

Check! No fuses on my bike are rated higher than 15A.

 

 

-Make sure you have the correct fog lamp bulbs in place (if someone has installed high wattage fog lamp bulbs at one time that could be an issue)..

 

"Someone" (ahem, me) installed four PIAAs (they facilitate passing because the cars in front of me miraculously move out of my way). They draw less current than standard bulbs, right?

 

-If you are in fact ALSO failing the load relief relay then MAKE DARN sure you are using the correct fog lamp relay (both relay type & correct relay pin out)..

 

Check! I think. I buy all my relays at the local BMW dealer. Now, it's possible they are giving me the wrong relay, but they would have to do it consistently because I keep getting the same relay. There are four of five which are the same part number (ending in 412 on the top of the relay).

 

OK, now on your question of the socket removal (I presume you mean terminal removal from the socket?)..

 

What I said was "how do I swap them out? Do the wires just pull out of the socket?". So, what I'm trying to figure out is how to remove the wires from the socket so I can install a new socket. I hope that clears up the issue.

 

 

If you look down into the terminal area you should be able to see little barbs sticking out on both sides of the terminals.. You need to use 2 terminal picks (or very small screw drivers) & depress BOTH barbs at the same time while pulling the terminal out the bottom (those basic Bosch terminals are NOT pull-to-seat so they come out the bottom of the socket).. I posted a picture a while ago so if you still have that good if not let me know & I will E-Mail it to you..

Is this the procedure to remove the relay socket (recepticle) from the bike or to remove the individual wires from the socket? I read it as the former. If that's the case, I've already got it out. If the latter, I need to pay attention a little better.

 

Don’t pull anything out yet until you determine if you can get a new socket..

Will do! I'm working on that now.

 

Thanks for your assistance. There is NO WAY I could have gotten this far without it. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing.

grin.gif

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If you want something meaningful
and I do
measure the voltage at fuse #10 then compare that to the voltage at one of the fog light sockets.. Or better yet place the (+) lead of your voltmeter on the #10 fuse & the (-) lead on the power at one of the fog light sockets,, that will give you a real good idea of voltage drop in the fog light circuit..

 

Twisty

 

...or as Brian Curry would say "More data please..."

I'm not sure if I did this right, but I measured to the pigtail connection at the fog lamp. Anyway, here are the results:

with power off:

12.66v - across battery terminals (for reference)

with power on:

12.07v - across F10

11.88v - F10 to battery ground

11.61v - across pins 1 and 2 of light relay

0.04v - across F10 and fog lamp. I checked both fog lamps and even changed F10 with another 15A fuse.

 

Does this help, or did I do something wrong?

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Bill,, Seeing as that yellow wire is the power wire FROM the relay to The fog lights themselves it shouldn’t have any DIRECT load bearing issues on the load relief relay so if you are also failing the load relief relay you have other issues than that one failed fog light relay terminal..

________________________________________

Quote

 

Your electrical knowledge is much greater than mine, but since the fog lamps are connected to the load relief relay, is it possible that when the yellow wire with red strip that goes into the light relay shorts, it causes too much (amperage) load on the load relief relay and it trips?

Quote: ____Actually the fog lamps are NOT directly connected to the load relay.. ONLY the small coil in the fog lamp relay is connected to the load relay & no matter how much load is on the fog lamp circuit it won’t increase the current loading on the load relay.. (see below for more)

________________________________________

 

 

You don’t mention also failing the #10 (fog light) fuse so even with that failing terminal you haven’t exceeded the #10 fuse rating so we know circuit amperage hasn’t gone that high..

________________________________________

 

Correct. I've checked all my fuses; not just visually but also with a continuity tester.

Quote: ___If that fuse isn’t blowing then your ACTUAL current load on the fog light relay is LESS than that fuse rating (always)..

________________________________________

 

 

There is a few things you probably should check___

 

-See what the fuse rating is on your #10 fuse (you probably don’t want over a 15 amp fuse in there).. You want that fuse to pop before relay damage occurs..

________________________________________

 

 

Check! No fuses on my bike are rated higher than 15A. ___Good

 

Quote:

________________________________________

 

-Make sure you have the correct fog lamp bulbs in place (if someone has installed high wattage fog lamp bulbs at one time that could be an issue)..

________________________________________

 

 

"Someone" (ahem, me) installed four PIAAs (they facilitate passing because the cars in front of me miraculously move out of my way). They draw less current than standard bulbs, right?___ That should have no DIRECT effect on the load relay but could easily be the problem with that toasted yellow wire terminal in the fog light relay.. There one POSSIBLE reason that the fog light relay could be taking out the load relay & that is IF the fog light relay internals are burning up so bad that the load relay input wire is contacting the fog light ground terminal inside the relay but that should also make the headlight dim profusely when that is happening.. As a side note: cut the old fog light relay open & look inside to see if any of the internals are fused together.. If so post a picture.. You don't also have any high power headlight bulbs installed do you if so that can fry the load relief relay..

Quote:

________________________________________

 

-If you are in fact ALSO failing the load relief relay then MAKE DARN sure you are using the correct fog lamp relay (both relay type & correct relay pin out)..

 

________________________________________

 

 

Check! I think. I buy all my relays at the local BMW dealer. Now, it's possible they are giving me the wrong relay, but they would have to do it consistently because I keep getting the same relay. There are four of five which are the same part number (ending in 412 on the top of the relay).___OK that probably means this isn’t pertinent..

Quote:

________________________________________

 

OK, now on your question of the socket removal (I presume you mean terminal removal from the socket?)..

________________________________________

 

 

What I said was "how do I swap them out? Do the wires just pull out of the socket?". So, what I'm trying to figure out is how to remove the wires from the socket so I can install a new socket. I hope that clears up the issue. _____See my original post above on those little tangs that need to be depressed (that is down in the terminal cavity on each side of the terminal itself).. I think I posted a picture in one of the earlier posts,, if not I will send you a picture of a terminal tonight.. Basically there are 2 barbs (one on each side of each terminal) that need to be depressed with a terminal pick or very small screwdrivers, then the terminal (wire & all) pull out the bottom of the cavity..

 

Quote:

________________________________________

 

If you look down into the terminal area you should be able to see little barbs sticking out on both sides of the terminals.. You need to use 2 terminal picks (or very small screw drivers) & depress BOTH barbs at the same time while pulling the terminal out the bottom (those basic Bosch terminals are NOT pull-to-seat so they come out the bottom of the socket).. I posted a picture a while ago so if you still have that good if not let me know & I will E-Mail it to you..

________________________________________

 

Is this the procedure to remove the relay socket (recepticle) from the bike or to remove the individual wires from the socket? I read it as the former. If that's the case, I've already got it out. If the latter, I need to pay attention a little better. ___It’s to remove the individual wires from the socket..

Quote:

________________________________________

________________________________________

Twisty

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Bill, here is the picture of the Bosch terminals if you look closely you can see the barbs on each side of the terminals..

 

BoschTerminal.jpg

 

Twisty

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Basically there are 2 barbs (one on each side of each terminal) that need to be depressed with a terminal pick or very small screwdrivers, then the terminal (wire & all) pull out the bottom of the cavity..

Twisty

 

Where is a good place to get terminal picks? Radio Shack?

 

Thanks for the picture and guidance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey, Twisty - check this out:

 

P6160151sm.jpg

 

One trick was finding a terminal extractor. At most of the places I went, I talked to people whose eyes glazed over when I asked about a terminal extractor. I eventually found one. I tried to figure out how it worked before I left the parts house. No one there could extract a terminal. They said I could have my money back. I said I would give it a try, but might be back in a couple of days. I fiddled with it and found the "magic jiggle" and the terminal came out effortlessly.

 

Thanks for the coaching, Twisty.

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Bill, looks good.. All you have to do is hold your tongue correctly & they will come right out lmao.giflmao.gif..

 

Look at the little locking tangs on the side of the terminals & if you distorted those be sure to bend them back correctly before inserting in the new connector of you chance the terminal pushing through when the relay is pushed into the socket..

 

Twisty

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