A Tough Lesson Learned at a Motorcycle Dealership

[TonyM315]

For the past few weeks, I have debated on whether or not to post the following story about something that myself and my passenger Kim witnessed a few weeks back at a Southern California motorcycle dealership. The whole thing shook both of us up pretty badly - and made both of us (I think me more than Kim) absolutely furious. So furious, that it was only until recently that I calmed down about it.

 

After sharing this story with Fernando Belair, I thought about it - and feel that there may be something in here for riders - especially new riders to gain something from.

 

The dealership was a Harley-Davidson dealership - one of the biggest in the area, but that really isn't important. I ask that we not turn this into a Harley-bashing thread. I grew up around these bikes, I learned how to ride on these bikes, I have many friends who have ridden these bikes to the ends of the earth and back, and I'll always have an affection for these bikes. It just so happens that this incident occured at this particular high-volume dealership.

 

The happy part of this story:

 

Many of you are not aware of this, but my beloved passenger Kim recently took the MSF class and obtained her motorcycle license! She passed with flying colors, and is now licensed to ride a motorcycle. Shortly after she passed the class - it was time for her to get her first bike. Being just 5 feet tall, the goal was to get her something low, slow, and affordable that would fit her right out of the box and not cost a bundle if it was dropped. I tried, but a Honda Rebel wasn't going to fly with her. Long story short, Kim is the proud owner of a Red Buell Blast, she loves it and she's riding all over the place. Another ride tale with pictures will come soon.

 

On this day, we decided to pay a visit to this Harley shop - because they also sold Buell Bikes. Our goal was to find a few accessories for her new bike that the local Harley / Buell dealer in my area didn't have in stock. Small stuff - a tank bag and a tank bra - to protect it.

 

The rest of the story:

 

Turns out, they had the bag in stock - so it wasn't a total waste of time. After browsing the store and drooling over what seemed like dozens of iron horses of chrome - we grabbed a cup of complementary coffee they had on tap and stepped outside to enjoy the day, look at more bikes, and sit and drink our coffee before making the trip home. It was a glorious sunny day.

 

So we're sitting in this 'sitting area' in front of the shop - as we both notice what appears to be a young man taking delivery of a brand new bike - a black 2004 Sportster. "Wasn't your first bike a Sportster, Tony?" Kim asked. "Yup - a 1977 XLCR. Boy they've come a long way since then."

 

We both commented on what an exciting day this must this must have been for this guy - getting a new bike and all. His friends were with him looking on - as the salesman was showing him the bike. As we sipped our coffee and looked and smiled and stared at this 'event' taking place, I noticed something that didn't quite look right.

 

The customer was clad in a sleeveless shirt, a pair of shorts, slip on tennis shoes and low cut ankle sox. No gloves, no gear really to speak of. No jeans. Nothing like that. The only thing I noticed was one of those novelty helmets dangling from his hand - blowing in the breeze as he listened to the salesman explain the bike. Yes, these helmets were stacked to the rafters inside the shop.

 

"Wow I hope that guy isn't going to ride dressed like that" I commented. My concern then turned to bewilderment - and for whatever reason - I remembered my cell phone had one of those little cameras built in it. So from my hip - I discretely snapped a picture of what I was watching.

 

The customer is on the right in the light blue shirt - the salesman is on the left:

 

 

Now all of us have taken delivery of a new (or used) motorcycle at one time or another. Usually the salesperson takes maybe 5 to 15 minutes going over the bike with you and you're on your way. But in this case - we were sitting there watching this for over a half hour.

 

"Wow - pretty thorough run-through of the bike" I chuckled. But then something else didn't seem right. The salesman was getting on the bike and demonstrating starting and stopping. He was showing the customer which brake lever stopped which wheel. With the customer seated on the bike, he was moving the customer's foot as he was explaining that 'first gear is down, and the rest are up - and this lever stops the rear wheel.'

 

Something just didn't seem right about this. I wasn't saying anything, but Kim's voice broke the silence and said, "Tony - this guy has never ridden before and he's going to ride that bike." "No way" I replied - can't be.

 

About another 10 minutes elapsed and finally the customer got geared up with his new novelty helmet and nothing else. No gloves, just shorts, slip on tennis shoes, and low cut ankle sox. I managed to snap off another picture. Note his two friends looking on...

 

 

At that point, he mounted the bike, put it in first gear, and proceeded to roll off. After rolling about 10 feet in the parking lot, he suddenly gave the bike a tremendous amount of throttle (almost wide open) and then closed it. "Whoa!" I said in fear. "What the 'F' is this guy doing?"

 

He then coasted out of the driveway and into the street - gunning the engine again and backing off. He did this about two more times - and then gunned that little Sportster with what must have been a wide open throttle - and this time he didn't let up. He just kept accelerating.... and accelerating... going faster and faster - (I would put him at about 35-40 MPH) wining the engine out (didn't shift)... as he approached a left hand curve outside of the dealership. At that moment, everything seemed to move in slow motion, and this guy, on a brand new bike, wearing next to no protection lowsided with such an impact - it was unbelieveable.

 

Smoke, sparks, that horrible sound of metal scraping on the road and then silence. Kim screamed. The salesman buried his face in his hands. The customer's friends were in shock. I stood there in utter disbelief.

 

At that point, myself and Kim ran to where he went down (no pictures of this part). His left shoe had come off his foot. The bike was on top of him and he was semi-conscious. The salesman ran over as well.

 

As it turns out, Kim is a surgical nurse - so she is used to seeing stuff like this. I just kind of went into 'robot' mode and took orders from Kim. I called 911 and told the salesman "she's a nurse - it's OK". "Oh thank God" the salesman replied.

 

Incredibly, as some time passed, the injured customer made it to his feet and could limp under his own power - over to a sitting area. Kim ran inside to obtain a first aid kit and went to work on him - waiting for help to arrive. It was also a chance to examine his injuries.

 

Road rash covering his left arm and leg. Gravel was embedded in his arm and leg. Exposed bone on his ankle. Left hand had severe puncture wound combined with road rash. Turned out that the end of one of the levers had penetrated his hand. Major contusion on his left temple. He was going into shock which Kim began treating him for.

 

So there I was, now sitting on a 2004 Road King on the sales floor. To my right I watched my girlfriend administer first aid to a guy who had just bought a bike, didn't know how to ride a bike and crashed it. I then glanced to my left - looking at the concern and tears in the eyes of the gals who worked in the motorclothes department - they weren't saying anything. I then glanced at the other employees in the store - some shaking their heads, some with a smurk, and some going about their business.

 

Then I looked at the salesman who sold him the bike - who was outside, wheeling the crippled Sportster into the service department. I ran out there towards him and the conversation went something like this:

 

Me: Pretty crazy, huh?

Sales guy: Unreal

Me: I'm just curious - did that guy have a motorcycle license?

Sales guy: Nope

Me: Had he ever ridden a motorcycle before?

Sales guy: Nope - but he claimed he could do it.

Me: You mean he was going to ride it home?

Sales guy: Yeah. Don't need a license to by a bike. But the customer has to at least ride the bike out of our lot. That way the bike is officially delivered. It's up to them if they want to ride it home or not. (He then says with a chuckle) Now... we get to fix it! Sh*t happens, you know?

 

I stood there nodding my head but was completely bewildered by what I had just heard. He spoke so fast and was so nonchalant about it - that I didn't know what to say next. I wanted to say "You could've at least sold him a pair of jeans, boots and a jacket as upsells" - "You could've... you should've..." there were so many things I wanted to say, but I didn't say anything.

 

As I walked away he said, "Hey man thanks for sticking around and helping the guy".

 

"Happy to help" I replied.

 

Kim and I then left the dealership and went somewhere to sit and talk about what just happened - and then proceeded to make the one hour ride home.

 

One could say the dealer should've stepped up and not let him ride. One could say the customer should have known better.

 

Who knows - that's why I'm posting this.

 

I know some may disagree with me, but I've always felt that like it or not - sometimes - a dealer - or a salesperson is the 'last line of defense' before a new rider hits the road on a new motorcycle. Granted, in the end it is the decision of the customer what they want to do - but for gosh sakes - in this instance - the dealer didn't appear to try and intervene at all - and I just don't get it. He KNEW he didn't know how to ride a bike and attempted to teach him right there in the parking lot. I really don't get it.

 

What's your take on this?

 

The next day, we took a ride up to Joshua Tree - and stopped at another dealership in the area where I live and I shared this story the owner, (Age 84) who has been riding for over 60 years. He wasn't surprised to hear this story when I told him which dealer it was. When I asked him what he would have done he said "We have a policy here. See in California you don't have to have a motorcycle endorsement to buy a motorcycle - but in my shop you do. If you want a bike you've got to at least get the endorsement. If they insist on buying the bike - then maybe I'll sell it to them, but we won't let them ride it out of here. We'll deliver the bike to their home - for free. At that point, they're on their own."

 

At any rate, that's the story - and to this day, it still saddens me. As all of you know, when learned properly, this sport is so great - and it is truly surprising what the perception of some newer riders can be about riding a motorcycle.

 

I guess rather than pointing fingers, we as riders should always try to share good riding habits with newer riders - and hope that they make the right choices. In the end, it's the rider's choice... but when the rider doesn't know any better, and in this case, doesn't even know how to ride.... I kind of feel it's a dealer's choice to a point as well.

 

Thanks for listening.

[russell_bynum]

Tony,

I think this stuff happens all the time. When I bought my Suzuki, nobody asked if I had a motorcycle license. I could just as easily bought a Hayabusa...the fastest production motorcycle ever made, a bike capable of nearly 200mph in stock form and ridden away without a clue about how to ride it.

 

It is far worse with boats. Any idiot with money (or credit) can buy a PWC capable of 65+mph. PWC are inherently very safe craft (shallow draft, positive buoyancy, no exposed propeller, very manuverable), but (like motorcycles) their performance and unforging nature is what gets people into trouble. Add to that the fact that most people also drink when they're out on the water, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. I've seen people badly injured and even killed, and tons of property damage caused by inexperienced idiots in a new boat or PWC.

 

I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. If I get hurt, it is most likely because I didn't do what I needed to do to stay in one piece. However, I also think that the dealers have a moral responsibility to look out of people. Unfortunately, that often means not making a sale.

 

I'm glad this guy had you and Kim there to help him. I hope he gets a clue and realizes that he needs training. Unfortunately, what is much more likely is he'll either buy another one right away, or declare that "motorcycles are unsafe".

 

BTW...a Buel Blast? That's so freakin' cool!!!! I can't wait to see the pics and hear about the rides!

 

Any chance she'll be on that baby at Torrey?

[Wheels Rollin']

I think the term you used was "bewildered", Tony -- and that kinda sums up my feelings at the moment... Am I surprised? Not really -- it's an unfortunate reality seen way too often, I'm afraid... The fact your experience was so... well... dramatic is different... I can't ivaguely magine what it must've been like for you both to have been sitting there watching this unfold and essentially finding yourself helpless to do anything about it...

 

Funny -- this sales approach seems terribly short-sighted to me... Sure -- there was the flippant remark about earning some repair work for the shop, but it really made me wonder... How many bikes does a normal rider buy in the course of a riding career? How influential are riders on what their friends buy? There may be other questions to be posed here, but in my view, it's got the potential of being a "win-the-war-lose-the-battle" kind of scenario... They sold the bike but lost the sale...

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing this valuable and eye-opening tale, Tony -- and what a great job you did with the narrative too << smile >>...

 

-- Bill

 

P.S. Entertaining a second career as a Private Investigator? Excellent "surveillance" photos -- and taken in stealth mode no less... Impressive << grin >>...

[soboy]

I think the dealer and salesman should be ashamed of themselves. IMHO, m/c dealers have an ethical and moral responsibility to protect brand new riders from what happened to this guy. Allowing a buyer with NO experience riding motorcycles and NO endorsement to ride a m/c off the lot in that attire is irresponsible. But, it happens all the time in our capitalistic society. Money talks and the dealer/salesman wants to make the sale, at zero regard for the personal safety of the buyer, who often has NO idea what he is getting himself into. Makes me sick.

 

The good dealers won't allow this to happen. I was at a "bad" dealer and a "good" dealer a couple of weeks ago. At the bad dealer, a girl with zero experience was buying a Suzuki Katana 750 because she liked the color. The sleazeball sales lizard was going along with her, like this was an ideal first bike. I pulled her aside, told her to take MSF first and then start on a GS500. I hope she listened.

 

At the good dealer, a teenager who had never ridden anything except a bicycle was trying to buy a Ninja ZX-6RR, because it was a "cool" bike. The sales professional told the kid they would NOT sell him that bike, because in all likelihood, he would severely injure himself on his way home from the dealership. Instead, the kid bought a Ninja 250 (perfect starter bike) and agreed to sign up for MSF. What a difference!

[steve.foote]

Tony, ultimately it's the customers responsibility. I watched a similar senerio unfold at one of the BMW dealerships in Atlanta. You really want to reach out and help, but ultimately there is nothing you can do.

[Venturello]

Wow, amazing.

 

Just wanted to add BMW of Atlanta was nice enough to deliver TO HIS HOME a used F650CS to a friend who bought it from them. Same thing, he had never ridden nor had a license.

 

Last september when I went to Atlanta he was curious about riding. I explained a lot to him regarding riding and safety, including doing a safety course. His idea at first was to get a sports bike like an R6 but luckily he was receptive and mature enough to understand and learn on a gentler bike. We went to BMW and other brand dealerships. This weekend he is doing the MSF. Francisco has tons of enthusiasm right now and might be another great rider to join us. He now would like instead of a sports bike a Rockster, but I told him 'wait till you ride so you know what kind of rider you are', explaining to him the advantages and disadvantages of a naked like the Rockster.

 

Kudos to BMW of Atlanta for that, for keeping my friend safe. He also said Laura there was very, very nice and patient to him.

 

Question: I know dealerships cannot be made liable to the stupidity of people, but a guy like this is endangering other citizens in the road. Same as not allowing bars to sell alcohol to minors or drivers... dont you guys think something should be done against them?

 

Regards,

 

Juan Miguel Venturello

 

ps. If anyone in Atlanta is riding out next month and would not mind tutoring and sharing the ride with my friend, send me a message. He is a very nice person, and would love (it seems) to use the bike even for his dailly commute. I would hate it if his whole riding experience is spoiled by a wreck. I know an F ride is 'different' from a boxer rider and he is younger than most of you, that's why I sent him initially to F650.com but he might register here as well soon.

[KDeline]

It would be nice if the dealer would have done more about making sure he could ride, but he is a adult and has to take responsablity for his decision. Still a sad circumstance.

[soboy]

I agree that the buyer is an adult and has the ultimate responsibility for his own safety, but the dealer still should be ashamed of himself for being such a willing participant in this fool-hardy scheme. The rider in this case is an idiot, but the dealer was letting greed cloud his judgement as well.

[JimGullen]

Based on my experience, I would guess that this happens all the time...and not just with one brand, either.

 

My first bike was (is) a R6. I walked into the dealership, was promptly greeted by the salesperson. I told him that I was trying to decide between the R6 and 600R (I really wanted the R6, but had read the 600R might be a better starter bike). The conversation went like this:

 

SP: I've got what you want right here (leads me to an R1 )

ME: Isn't this an R1?

SP: Sure is.

Me: I think that's way too much bike. I've only ridden the MSF bikes.

SP: If you're careful, you'll be fine.

ME: I think I'd be better off with a 600, don't you?

SP: Well, they're slower, you'd probably outgrow it in a few weeks.

ME: Doesn't the R6 have something like 90hp? You think I'll outgrow that?

SP: Yeah, see, the R1 has about 140hp, I've wheelied it in 4 gears!

ME: I'm not interested in wheelies...could you show me the R6?

SP: (relents) sure I think we've got one left...

 

Now, I was 31 when this happened. I hate to think what happens when someone less mature walks in.

 

Of course a previous poster summed it up well, we have to be responsible for ourselves and our safety.

 

Just my experience.

 

Best regards!

Jim

[upflying]

Not at all unusual. The HD dealer where I service my work bike has several crashed bikes with less than 100 miles on them. He said they will deliver the bike to the customers home if they do not know how to ride. That's the thing with the Harley image, reverence to the "God of Chrome" and common sense goes flying out the window. Same thing happens when you are in love, your mind turns to mush. How can you blame the dealership? The motivation of the salesman is strictly profit not training.

[Venturello]

I agree that the buyer is an adult and has the ultimate responsibility for his own safety, but the dealer still should be ashamed of himself for being such a willing participant in this fool-hardy scheme. The rider in this case is an idiot, but the dealer was letting greed cloud his judgement as well.

 

I respectfully disagree (with the first part, not on that the dealer should be ashamed). Same as driving a car, for society to allow you on a bike you should have to proove you are able to without endangering others and yourself.

 

I can only speak for my experience, but 1 year ago as a non rider, I had no idea riding was so darn difficult and dangerous (call me stupid but...). We have a co-worker here interested into riding, and a riding co-worker and me spoke to him about it on Monday, telling him the law here of having a sub-34HP bike for 2 years first was excellent but that young, 20 year old should not be allowed to ride a 140HP monster, that it should allow people to scale up motorcycle power more slowly. Also spent some time explaining to him why it was so difficult and risky. He is a sports bycicle rider, but what I have seen from most people regarding riding is that 'isn't it just like a bigger bycicle?'. Most people seem to thing riding is that, very simple.

 

Again, I might just be stupid, but I was not aware of the dangers until I was out on the road nor until I saw what a small crash can do...

 

Of course, we dont want to turn people away from riding nor make this an 'exclusive club', but not throw them on a bike like this salesman did...

 

Regards,

 

Juan Miguel Venturello

[Patallaire]

It happened to me when I picked up my RT. I had not ridden in 25 years, the dealer said there is your bike outside, he walked me through the controls. I said, "Listen, I haven't ridden in a number of years, do you have a small trainer or something I can run up and down the back road until I get the feel of this again." He said, No, you should have thought about that before you bought it!" It's your bike, be careful." Needless to say, not ten cents ever was transfered from my pocket to his again. He is now out of business!

[Laura]

What a shame. I don't think it's unusual for people who have never ridden to think it's a snap and just jump on without a clue. Some dealerships with conscience try their best but ultimately it's the customer's responsibility in my opinion. Stand outside a busy dealership on a Saturday when riders are taking possession of their new machines and just listen, it's mind boggeling.

 

I was witness to a new sport bike being offloaded in my neighborhood for a kid who was having it delivered to my neighbors house because his own parents wouldn't let him have a bike. They backed it off the trailer, the kid got on it, no gear not even a helmet, went down the street whinning the gears,turned around, open the throttle and right before my house popped a wheelie lost it and skid about 100ft until he got stuck under a parked pick up truck. My husband and I were watching and it was like we knew what was going to happen before it happened and then it was like slow motion. When I called 911 and told them the kid didn't have a helmet and I couldn't see any movement of him under the back of the truck I could tell they thought he was dead already. He survived but was injured badly. I didn't see that kid in the neighborhood for about a year. This year he shows up on a brand new CBR. I have noticed he's wearing gear and isn't driving down the street like a maniac.

[Dennis Andress]

Tony,

 

What you and Kim witnessed really bites, it bites the sport we all love and it bites our desire that safety be put first when riding. Without a doubt the salesman or the dealership could have prevented it but likewise their customer wanted to do this. Young people find their identity in the things they own. Being known to his friends as “having a Harley” could have been this guy’s only motivation; he didn’t need training and he didn’t need safety gear for that. He could have used some common sense but that can be hard to come by, especially when you are sitting on your brand new Sportster in front of your friends.

 

It’s springtime and the start of a new riding season. Take a Saturday ride through the foothills of the San Gorgonio mountains and you’ll likely run across a herd of these guys, they ride slow and maybe one or two of them run wide in the curves but what the heck, they’re not there for the ride. For them the fun starts when they stop. I wish we could nail better helmets to their heads and send them to 3 weeks of remedial MSF school but that ain’t going to happen. I’ve had some success by following behind the herd and picking off the straggler for a little bit of roadside coaching. I don’t know what else to do....

 

Tell Kim the Buell Blast is cool!!

[SageRider]

I'm sorry you had to witness the accident. That said, I lay total responsibility on the rider. The only part about the dealer's actions I don't particularly like is the chuckling over the anticipated repair costs.

Everyone bought a first bike at some point in time. There was also a time when MSF courses were not available, and they are not required now (although I think it makes sense for new riders to take the beginning course). Driver training consisted of the being walked through the control functions by the salesman then riding away. Most people I know that acquired their first bike in this manner (me included) were very conservative. This guy was obviously having problems with judgement (WOT!). Showing off what a great brave biker he could be, he learned a painful lesson.

About the only thing I could imagine to let the rider off the hook would be a sticking throttle or other mechanical issue, but the description doesn't indicate this.

[Ken H.]

Well of course those who are are saying that ultimately it’s the customer’s personal freedom of choice to go off and do something stupid, are technically right. But by doing so aren’t we letting the dealer off a little TOO easy? Tony, it sounds like you couldn’t hear the conversation, so it’s hard to know if any cautions at all were given. From the description of the events and conversation with the sales person later, it sounds like the subject of safety wasn’t even approached.

 

Sure the dealer has no legal obligation, sure the customer has the right to do what s/he wants, but in a successful society isn’t there a HIGHER obligation? An obligation to do the right thing needed, not necessarily just the minimum thing needed?

 

I don’t think we should just say, ‘these things happen all the time’ and let it go at that. I think we should be OUTRAGED that the dealer did something so irresponsible. Irresponsible morally and socially, if not technically irresponsible legally.

 

I think you should be in the dealer’s face about it. Put a formal complaint in writing to the dealer's ownership. Copy the local newspapers / TV stations and see if they pick the story up. Post this incident naming names where ever you can. See if you can find out the name of the guy (there should be a police report) and talk to the family about what recourse they might have to call the dealership on the carpet. You were an eyewitness to a negligent act. It probably won’t get anywhere, and it’s just one brick in the wall, but maybe at least there’ll be some bad press and at least raise some community awareness of the issue. Yeah the guy on the bike was a stupid _ss. Sure he bears some (maybe even most) of the responsibility, but so was the salesman/dealership. THEY, because they KNOW what is involved with riding a motorcycle, have a higher standard we must hold them to. They KNEW they were setting the guy up for failure, even if they were in denial under the guise of 'bikes have to get sold'.

 

This callus dismissal of more and more unacceptable things in our society as “S_it happens” is part of why we continue to deteriorate to where more and more of it does indeed happen. What ever happened to people caring about society's issues??? Even DEATH AND WAR doesn’t seem to generate much emotion anymore. (Oops, wrong thread.)

 

Tony, don’t get me wrong, I’m not bashing you and Kim, sounds like you did a wonderful job after the fact. Although personally I think had I seen this unfolding I might have at least walked up and made an attempt to interject some sense into the situation. They probably would have told me to go __ck myself, but maybe, just maybe they would have had a moment of pause.

 

Rather I’m more distressed by this as ‘normal’, ‘common’, ‘acceptable’, ‘happens all the time’, ‘nothing you can do about it’, ‘it’s a free country’, etc. I know it’s a fine line between interfering with freedom and responsibility to and for others. But come on! These days everyone seems to thing everyone should have the right to do anything. If that came to pass, what would be left but chaos? IMHO we shouldn't let incidents like this slide by quite so easily.

 

Ok, I’m back off the soapbox. This just makes me so mad! All right, I’m getting off. Where's the really really mad Graemlin in this forum??

[russell_bynum]

The conversation went like this:

 

A similar conversation happened to me, and that's why I left the Honda place (looking for a Nighthawk, they tried to sell me a CBR929) and bought a Suzuki. Although the Suzuki dealer didn't ask to see a license, he did at least listen to me and sell me a bike that was appropriate for my skill level and riding environment (Bandit 600).

[JimGullen]

What ever happened to people caring about society's issues???

 

I believe I understand the point of your post, but I think this particular line might be painting with too broad a brush. Was this really a society issue? We have the right to do things...some of which may be seen as stupid by others. We may be held accountable for these stupid actions. This guy exercised his right to get on a machine he had little business being on and he paid for it by leaving significant skin on the pavement. No one else was hurt. To my mind, that's being held to account. I'm not sure we want society to preempt our decisions in the name of safety.

 

On the other hand, what if this guy injured someone else on his ill-fated voyage? At that point, is the salesperson more like someone who shoots a gun into the air and says "I didn't know the bullet would kill someone!"

 

I don't know the answer. I know that I'm not in motorcyle sales. I know that if I was, I would have a VERY hard time selling a bike under those conditions.

 

No flames, just some random thoughts!

 

Best regards!

Jim

[TonyM315]

Great lively conversation so far - thanks for keeping it civil

 

One other detail - after the incident the customer told Kim that he had no idea they had classes that taught you how to ride a motorcycle. His reply to her was "where do I sign up? I'll take a couple of them!"

 

Passing statutes that require someone to have a motorcycle endorsement (license) in order to buy a bike could be a good start. Requiring training would be another good one - or at least funnelling some funds to the MSF so they can market themselves a little better and create more top-of-mind awareness and imaging about motorcycle training with consumers.

 

Funny thing is - behind the wheel training is required when you want a driver's license in most states - so my question is why not with bikes. Plus, you must have a valid driver's license if you want to buy a car. Why not with bikes? Because they're a pleasure vehicle? I don't get it... bikes and cars are using the same roads - together.

 

I'm wondering if any members reading this are located outside of the U.S. (Canada, Europe, Australia) - what has your experience been when purchasing a bike in those countries? Can anyone walk into a dealership off the street and buy a bike with no training and no license to operate the machine?

 

Just curious how this situation might be handled in other countries.

 

Russell: The Blast is just that - a BLAST! What a great little bike. She won't be riding to Torrey this time - but it remains her goal to do so in the Fall. Will have to see how she feels. Believe me, if I could find a way to tow the thing behind the LT - or maybe just bungee it to the luggage rack - I'd get the bike up there just so she could tool around and hone her skills on those roads. It's been so much fun to watch her learn. She's loving it.

 

Thanks again for keeping it spirited and civil everyone.

[russell_bynum]

or maybe just bungee it to the luggage rack

 

Just put it in the left sidecase!

[Spike]

Passing statutes that require someone to have a motorcycle endorsement (license) in order to buy a bike could be a good start.

 

Frankly, I disagree with you on this it would be a horrible start. Theres already a statute that requires someone to have a moto endorsement to ride a moto. This guy didnt obey that statute so why throw yet another one on the books ? All that would do would increase costs associated with regulating a new law. What motorcycles could you buy without a license ? What ones could'nt you buy without a license ? What if you just wanted a new SV for a track bike ? etc etc etc. In general I think its humorous how society has a preference for enacting new laws to stop those who show no regard for the laws from breaking the law. Let just hold people accountable for their actions.

 

-- John

 

PS and yes, good job guys on keeping this civil

[TonyM315]

Hmm.

 

Good point, John... hadn't thought about it that way. Thing is - true you're required to have an endorsement to ride a moto - but not buy one. That's what confuses me bit.

 

I'm curious what your feelings are about required training - similar to required behind-the-wheel training for auto driver's licenses.

[90%angel]

Tony,

 

What a terrible experience. I often wonder what goes through people's heads "Sure, I can ride a bike home with no training, how hard can it be?!" However, that being said, a more responsible dealer would have at least toldhim about where he can get training, offered to hold the bike until he was trained, and offer him some advice about better gear. Sheesh.

 

COOL, COOL, COOL about Kim riding now. It's an epidemic! Soon, the ladies will be taking over the board!!!! BUUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[SteveB]

The buyer should consider himself very lucky to have lived through the ordeal. What the buyer did was illegal in most states by riding the bike on the street without a license. He also learned a valuable lesson that hopefully he will take to heart and get some training before he gets back on the bike.

 

The salesman should have steered him toward the Riders Edge counter first to sign up for the MSF course. (Sale #1) Then the salesman should have shown him the Blast. (Sale #2) With roughly half the horsepower of the new Sportster it would have made a much better bike to learn on. Additional safety gear including a real helmet color matched to the bike. (Sale #3) Then 6 months latter sell him the Sportster. (Sale #4) . New helmet, color matched to the bike. (Sale #5) In another 6 months he could sell him the Fatboy. (Sale #6) New helmet, color matched to the bike. (Sale #7)

 

I don’t think it’s wrong for a dealer to sell a starter bike to an unlicensed rider. First let me say that the Sportster does not fit my idea of a starter bike although in the eyes of the Harley crowd it is just that. There was a thread going a few months ago with statistics that indicated self taught riders were just as safe if not safer than MSF students. While not vouching for the authenticity of the report, how is one to be self-taught if you can not purchase a bike? Dirt bikes are not the subject of this thread but since they are not used on the road would it be immoral to sell a dirt bike to an unlicensed rider?

 

When I bought the Yamaha (FZ6 &FZ1) the dealer would not deliver the bike without the state safety inspection sticker. I had to show proof of insurance to get the sticker. The insurance company would not sell me insurance without proof of a motorcycle endorsement on my drivers license. This seems like a reasonable way for the dealer to require license without offending the purchaser. Since they have already made the sale and the check already written the buyer would have to make some fast arrangements before they could take delivery. Underhanded, yes, but it might have saved some carnage on the road in this situation.

[Spike]

I'm curious what your feelings are about required training - similar to required behind-the-wheel training for auto driver's licenses.

 

My feelings ? *snicker* Boy did you open a can of worms. This is a new question for me so Im not positive about my position about this. Im open to good arguments. With that said ...

 

I dont know if I am in support of mandatory training. Thats a sticky and messy ball of wax. Who can teach ? Who writes the curriculum ? Is there more than one type of class ? etc. What I do support is appropriate and realistic licensure testing for people who make use of public roadways, public property, or otherwise endanger those who are not a party to such operations. If a father buys a dirt bike for his son and puts him on trails on his property, takes him to motocross events, etc., I think the government needs to mind its own buisness. Here's my perspective on this. When I got my license to drive trucks, the test was a PITA. I had to do vehicle pre-checks, obstacle courses, pass a knowledge test, and pass an on the road test. However, I feel it was for the most part a realistic test to judge not only my physical ability to manipulate the vehicle, but also my judgement skills, etc. The examiner did not ask which course I took to get those skills. In my mind, where the local jurisdictions fall down is with these cookie cutter driver's test where people dont even leave the parking lot until after they pass. What kind of crapola is that ? Ultimately, the question that this incident poses is if we as a society should prevent people from hurting themselves by stupidity. I dont think so. We have laws that prevent people from hurting other people which is necessary. Else everyone would use their liberties as an excuse to step on those of another. This guy broke one of those laws and as a result should be facing a penalty for it. It seems to me, as harsh as it sounds, he should get a ticket for operating without a license and his insurance (if he had any) should deny the claim. More laws dont teach people anything. Getting their fanny whacked does. The dealership showed a pathetic lack of judgement. Im not talking about the sale of the machine, Im talking about the "education" of the rider and encouraging the rider to ride it off their lot to take "delivery." I think they should be cited for that as an accessory, though I cant see it being done due to the trivial type of crime commited.

 

-- Spike

[PT Steve]

Thing is - true you're required to have an endorsement to ride a moto - but not buy one. That's what confuses me bit.

 

It may not make total sense, but as I recall the argument went something like this:

 

If a license is required to buy a vehicle, then a disabled/aged person who can't drive is not allowed to buy a vehicle for someone else to drive them around (discrimination).

 

And, the dealers shouldn't be required to check for an operators license because that would put them in the position of having to "police" their customers, which they are not qualified to do.

 

As far as I remember, all of this was brought up many years ago by the ACLU in reference to car licenses. I'm sure it would be extended to motorcycle licenses.

 

So, in order to protect the civil rights of a few people, many people are allowed to go out and make very large mistakes (euphemistically speaking ).

[Spike]

The salesman should have steered him toward the Riders Edge counter first to sign up for the MSF course. (Sale #1) Then the salesman should have shown him the Blast. (Sale #2) With roughly half the horsepower of the new Sportster it would have made a much better bike to learn on. Additional safety gear including a real helmet color matched to the bike. (Sale #3) Then 6 months latter sell him the Sportster. (Sale #4) . New helmet, color matched to the bike. (Sale #5) In another 6 months he could sell him the Fatboy. (Sale #6) New helmet, color matched to the bike. (Sale #7)

 

Im curious as to your definition of the word "should". Whats the motivation of the salesperson such that he "should" have done that? I agree that it would have been an appropriate thing to do, but as a fellow rider and human being showing compassion and caring towards another. I dont think it "should" be done if we are implying that any responsibility of rider's safety relies with the sales organization (as long as all equipment sold was in correct operating order).

 

-- Spike

[SteveB]

Im curious as to your definition of the word "should". Whats the motivation of the salesperson such that he "should" have done that? I agree that it would have been an appropriate thing to do, but as a fellow rider and human being showing compassion and caring towards another. I dont think it "should" be done if we are implying that any responsibility of rider's safety relies with the sales organization (as long as all equipment sold was in correct operating order).

 

Perhaps the wrong choice of words. You are correct Appropriate might have been a better choice. (I am writing specifications today and the passive voice isn't appropriate.) I was thinking from the dealerships standpoint of keeping a customer (alive) to come back and purchase other things. Harley Davidson marketing is not just to sell bikes but to sell a lifestyle. My contention is that you have to have a life in order to have a lifestyle. The salesmans motivation for pushing the MSF, riding gear, and appropriate bike for his (lack of) training is the same that prompted him to sell the Sportster to a person with no training, Money, he was just shortsighted.

[sshallen]

Plus, you must have a valid driver's license if you want to buy a car.

 

Absolutely not true. May we never descend that far to protect people from themselves.

 

Prior restraint goes against our legal principles.

 

Anyone able to contract (adult) can buy a car, plane, building, boat, chainsaw, semi-truck, etc. Or a motorcycle. With no requirement to be able or legal to operate it.

 

Why treat motorcycles differently?

[tallman]

Unless there is a statutory prohibition from selling something to the public (nuclear weapons), or there are statutes that regulate the sale of a product to a certain "class" of individuals (handguns/convicted felons), in a free market society some individuals will exercise their right to purchase a product they may be ill suited to use.

We can "infer", correctly or not, what we wish about this episode. For all we know, this customer had been in 20 times before purchasing the bike. The salesman and others may have tried to direct him to training classes and safety gear (regardless of any statement the rider made about knowledge of classes).

Bottom line, the dealer was not prohibited from selling the bike to the customer. Failure to do so could result in a lawsuit against the dealer for not selling the product to the customer.

Where do we draw the line? If dealer A sells one line of protective clothing. And, dealer B sells another line that costs 3 times as much money as dealer A's brand, but dealer B's line of gear is better than dealer A's line.....

should dealer A be held liable if a rider who purchases that protective gear is injured in a crash,

and should the crashee be compensated, if he/she can show dealer A had a "moral" responsibility to only sell the absolute best protective gear available.

I see this as a very "slippery slope".

Even with regulations and prohibitions (see Alcohol, Tobacco) some products are abused, used improperly, used illegally, and result in harm to the purchaser/consumer.

Anyone who purchases a motorcycle has a "moral" responsibility to themself, their family and friends, and society in general, to dress appropriately for the activity, get rider training, and use the bike in a legal manner.

Let those among us who can say they have never violated one of these guidelines cast the first stone.

I wish this had never happened. I wish the man was unhurt and no one had to respond to his poor choice of vehicle and behavior.

In the end, the only control we have....

is over ourself.

[TonyM315]

Sam-

 

That's interesting - I must have been misinformed - as I was told you do have to have a valid driver's license to purchase a car. Then again - you may not need it to get the car... but you may need the license to get insurance... and you need insurance on the car - so - it all connects.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Erick]

Then again - you may not need [a licence] to get the car... but you may need the license to get insurance... and you need insurance on the car - so - it all connects.

Then why isn't that the same for motorcycles?

[Voodoo]

Then again - you may not need [a licence] to get the car... but you may need the license to get insurance... and you need insurance on the car - so - it all connects.

Then why isn't that the same for motorcycles?

 

Erik, It depends on the insurance carrier. Most do require an MC endorsement or learners permit before a policy will be bound and the dealer needs a policy to register the bike in MOST states - unfortunately, not all.

[SDMike]

Also spent some time explaining to him why it was so difficult and risky. He is a sports bycicle rider, but what I have seen from most people regarding riding is that 'isn't it just like a bigger bycicle?'. Most people seem to thing riding is that, very simple.

 

Again, I might just be stupid, but I was not aware of the dangers until I was out on the road nor until I saw what a small crash can do...

 

Of course, we dont want to turn people away from riding nor make this an 'exclusive club', but not throw them on a bike like this salesman did...

 

Regards,

 

Juan Miguel Venturello

 

Re: bigger bicycle comment. Well, it is and it isn't. If your friend is somewhat experienced racing, he shouldn't have too much trouble with the maueuvering/handling part. Ride enough on a bicycle and a motorcycle is cake. After all, you don't have to pedal the thing!

 

The part where it is much different are the speeds. Things happen MUCH quicker at 70mph than they do at 20mph! Every time I switch back and forth, I'm amazed at how much narrower the roads are on the RT.

 

Re: crashing. Yeah, crashes suck. On bicycles, you're wearing lycra and not much else. At least on the RT I'm wearing (at min) jeans, a jacket, a helmet, and gloves.

 

A buncha years ago, my family went to a 4th of July picnic outside DC in the MD 'burbs. The family hosting the picnic had a working horse ranch with lots of land. They had a little 80cc Kaw. motorcycle they were letting kids take out in the field. I jumped on, and scooted away. Evidently, I rotated my wrist around so that the faster I went, the more it rotated the throttle open, so the faster I went. I got myself good and scared before I figured out the solution was to relax my wrist and slow down.

 

Sounds like the Harley-buying dude in the OP did something real similar, but didn't have time to figure out the "let go of the right hand" thing. Too bad.

 

My RT was bought before I had a license. The dealer was going to deliver it to my home, but that meant giving the sales guy a ride the 40mi back to the dealer right before rush hour. Ugh. I took delivery at my office and rode home.

 

I had been riding my Dad's 'Wing for the 6mos previous, so I didn't have any issues with the bike even though I didn't have a license. I didn't go get the darn thing till AFTER I bought the RT.

 

Ya gotta look at it from the dealer's POV. If I don't sell this guy what he's looking for, he's going to go find someone that will and then I'm out the money. Granted, it isn't always the RIGHT attitude, but the bottom line is "my family's gotta eat too." I find the same thing with mortgages and investments. Yeah, I may not agree with your choice of loans or mutual funds, but if I don't get you what you want, you'll find someone else that will.

 

HTH,

 

M

[Spike]

In MD I dont believe you need insurance to buy a car.

[Rider1200RT]

I read with great interest your article about your experience at a dealership. The issue is really about responsibility and that is where the problem lies.

In the good US of A it seems like that no one is responsible for themselves anymore. It is utterly amazing that people get away blaming others for what they do to themselves and to top it off get rewarded too .(remember Macdonald's and the that spilled coffee in her own lap??)

I do at the same time however think that a dealership should have a policy of somesort in place to prevent some moron taking of on a bike without a licence or gear, even if it was to cover their own butts.

But ultimately it is the consumers own responsibility to prevent stupid behaviour that could them hurt or worse. Even if the guy had at least the gear, he still would have crashed the bike. Some people need to learn the hard way and some take an MSF class and get the right gear.

You can't protect everyone from themselves as it pollutes the gene pool too much

[SDMike]

The one thing y'all keep missing here is that it isn't "manly" or "cool" to take the MSF course if you own a cruiser/sportbike/etc. We're in the minority when it comes to being safety conscios on a motorcycle. (I've been seeing more and more sportbike riders wearing at least a jacket around San Diego, so at least some of them have a clue.)

 

Otherwise, we wouldn't shell out big $$ for 'stiches, etc.

 

Even IF the sales guy had recommended the class to the purchaser BEFORE the accident, it probably would've been waved off with an "It can't be that hard to ride a motorcycle." Consider the typical Harley rider in his beanie and black Harley dealership t-shirt. 'Nuff said.

 

AFTER the accident, well, that's another story!

 

What is it that they say? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..."

 

oh, and "hindsight's always 20/20!"

 

M

[Kathy R]

For me, the bottom line is that the man who bought the bike is an adult. He made a mistake. He's paying for it. He's lucky he didn't kill himself.

 

For me, the bottom line is that each and every one of us have to be able to make decisions about our own lives. I, for one, do not ever want more rules. I want people to be accountable for their own actions, in cases like this. If a person is stupid, what can you do? Legislate against smart people?

 

I know it's not as simple as I say it. But rather than go into each and every bit of what I think about it and all the "well, in this case" or "in that case" type of scenario...I've got to keep it simple.

 

If you make bad choices in some situations in this life you are going to pay. That should be your choice.

 

Morally, I like the dealer who said he won't let a rider take the bike if they don't have a motorcycle license. And I like that that particular businessman is free to make that decision.

 

But I hate more laws. I want folks to own up to the responsibility of being out there in the world. I want folks to THINK for themselves.

 

And I don't want to be mommied by the government.

 

I'm glad you shared this Tony...and I'm darn glad folks like you and Kim are on this planet.

[Erick]

AFTER the accident, well, that's another story!

In other words: experience is something you get only just after you needed it!

[russell_bynum]

What PB said.

[sshallen]

That's interesting - I must have been misinformed - as I was told you do have to have a valid driver's license to purchase a car. Then again - you may not need it to get the car... but you may need the license to get insurance... and you need insurance on the car - so - it all connects.

 

Insurance is not required to own a car. In some states, it is required to operate or register a car. In no state is it required in order to own a car.

[Chiconurse]

I am also for what PB said.

Keep the government out of my life as much as possible. You can't legislate the stupidity out of people. If you could I would be for prospective parents taking a test before they could have kids cause we sure got a lot of stupid parents out there. Maybe I feel this way because I work in an emergency room where I meet a lot of stupid parents (and M/C riders), and maybe because I live in California where some are trying to pass a law that says you have to be 18 to use a tanning booth, but it is OK to vote before your 18, you just get half credit on your vote .

I don't even believe in the mandatory helmet law because in this land of freedom, you also have the freedom to be stupid (and do I catch flack at work because of this opinion).

 

I also agree with SteveB.

This dealer does not think at all about the loss of future sales by assisting with killing off his customers. Take time with a customer, take care of them and they are a customer for life.

 

I was very fortunate with my experience. I decided to purchase a RT with no riding experience. I took the MSF course so I would know what I was doing. My dealer wouldn't sell me the bike without it. He also made me take rides with him on smaller bikes until he felt it was OK for me to try an 1100RT. He let me ride this bike whenever I wanted until my bike came in (had 30K miles and a few drop scars). I rode my new bike home from the dealer with my boots, Stitch, gloves and helmet and continue to learn every time I ride (newbie with only 11K of experience).

My dealer also has a customer for life because he cares about me and his other customers!

[panthercity]

Sam-

 

That's interesting - I must have been misinformed - as I was told you do have to have a valid driver's license to purchase a car. Then again - you may not need it to get the car... but you may need the license to get insurance... and you need insurance on the car - so - it all connects.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

In good ol' Tejas, you don't need a driver's license to buy a car. And, if you don't finance it, you don't need insurance to buy it.

 

You are required to show proof of insurance when you register it.

 

Of course, you can get a driver's license and proof of insurance for a few bucks on certain street corners of most cities.

[J Mart]

Like PB, I'm no fan of government intrusion. However, the way I read this story, there is certainly an element of negligence on the part of the dealer. It appears he knew that the rider was unlicensed, but tried to put him on the bike to get the "delivery" check in the block. The rider certainly bears a great deal of responsibility, though. I'm not an attorney, but I do think that this dealer (or the sales rep) could be liable in some manner for his recklessness. If he didn't know that the rider was unlicensed, then the liability goes away. But if I toss my car keys to someone I know is unlicensed and he injures himself in an accident, you can bet I'll be held responsible.

Do I think that the dealer should check licenses at the door? No (although there is plenty of precedent - think alcohol, tobacco or firearms sales, where the seller is responsible for determining the legality of the sale). But to me the story above definitely represents negligence.

 

My long-winded $0.02.

[Z-Man]

Quite an interesting exchange of opinions, and handled quite civilly by all. Way to go! But I'll throw out another opinion: There's plenty of blame to go around. If the dealer knew that the rider was taking off without a license and without insurance, I suspect that the dealer is culpable. Certainly, however, anybody stupid enough to try what that rider tried with no more knowledge about riding than that rider possessed, deserves what he gets and shouldn't complain. Thank goodness no innocent people got hurt out on the roadway.

[David]

Tony, do you wish you had gotten up and inserted yourself, knowing that he wasn't trained to ride, and said something in advance? I wonder if that's part of what's going on, if nowhere else than your subconscious.

[TonyM315]

David-

 

You always have a way of asking the best questions...

 

Actually, for a moment I did find myself wanting to insert myself and say something - but since I didn't personally know either of the individuals... and the fact that I felt it was none of my business... I remained seated. I honestly didn't know if I should or shouldn't interject and say something. I almost did - but didn't. His friends were standing right there - I mean....

 

I felt funny going up to these individuals (one of them being the salesman) at that moment - the moment of delivery - some stranger interrupting them - and telling this guy my thoughts. That's at least what was going through my mind.

 

In retrospect, I could have approached him, pulled him off to the side and quietly told him.

 

At that moment, for whatever reason, I felt I should mind my own business and keep my mouth shut. I honestly don't know if that was the 'right thing' or the 'wrong thing' to do. What do you think? What would you have done in the same scenario?

 

Wish I would have bumped into him at the coffee machine 15 minutes earlier.

 

Great question, David - and as I sit here thinking about it I'm not convinced my inserting myself into this would have changed the outcome - then again - it may very well have. It could have also become a confrontation and I guess when I think about it, that's a big part of what was holding me back too.

[David]

What do you think? What would you have done in the same scenario?

 

I would have said something. I've embarassed my dear wife countless times doing such things. Secretly I know she loves me for it, though she claims the opposite.

 

Based on your description of the interaction you had with salesman, you are ultra diplomatic. So that's probably a tendency to recognize. But you are smart and wise as heck, and it's time to follow your instincts, me thinks. Forget about what people think of you.

 

Some times it takes a brave, courageous move to actually capture someone's attention. They only notice because you've done something so unlike what anyone else has done that you become undismissable.

 

I remember being at a Baskin Robbins not too long ago. A very cute little boy was there with his father. Just the two of them, obviously on an outing.

 

The little boy (about 4?) got his cone first, and promptly dropped it accidentally as his father put in his own order. The boy was aghast, but it was immediately obvious that it wasn't from losing the ice cream but from fear of what his father would do.

 

The boy was shaking by the time the father noticed, and his fears became reality as the father cursed him in a loud voice, humiliating the child in front of everyone else in line.

 

After he was done, I went up to the father and asked him if I could speak with him. He shot me an angry look, muttered under his breath, ans asked what I wanted as he walked to a corner of the store.

 

I handed him a five dollar bill and said I'd like to pay for a replacement ice cream, and that I'd watched the boy drop it and he didn't mean to. I explained that his boy adored him and I expressed hope that they would enjoy the rest of the evening.

 

He got this very funny look in his eye and walked back and bought the boy a replacement cone.

 

I'd like to think that I "reached" him a bit. I'll never know, of course, but leadership is stepping into nasty situations and trying to turn them around. It might not have been possible in this case, but it's always worth trying. Perhaps you could have said: "Can I interrupt, guys? I'm really sorry to spoil the moment, but I can't help noticing how excited you are about the bike. But the explanation I've been watching leads me to believe that maybe you haven't ridden before? I'm a certified motorcycle safety instructor, and I'd be delighted to have you as a student. In fact, I feel strongly that you shouldn't ride this until you've gone through the course. If you don't have the money, I'll be glad to pay for it. I'm sure the dealer will store this here for you."

 

Personally I've missed more of those opportunities than I like, either out of cowardice or uncertainty about what to say, and I often regret them.

[TonyM315]

Thanks, David - you know me a lot better than I thought and quite honestly - pretty much hit the nail on the head for me.

 

When we were sitting there, Kim was even encouraging me to go up and say something - and I remember saying, "No... no... come on..."

 

Sheesh! Further proof that she's my better half...

 

A human resources director I know calls it 'courageous communication' - in the workplace and in life. It's tough and scary - but in some cases necessary.

 

On that day, that customer no doubt learned a tough lesson. Today - I just learned the lesson that was in all of this for me. Even though it doesn't seem like it, there's lessons in everything I guess.

 

I owe ya one. -Thanks.

[becoyote]

When I first moved to Va. I purchased a used k100RT. When I rode it to the local dealer (Adventure BMW) for the first time in a tank top, shorts and tennis shoes, the owner at an appropriate and discreet moment gave me a little talk about gear. Not trying to sell me anything, but just passing on some common sense.

 

I wasn't in a financial situation to buy a stich at the time but I did start wearing boots, jeans, gloves and jacket.

 

My brother bought his first bike ever two years ago. Dealer sold him a brand new softail as his first bike. They required him to buy $1500 in accessories for the privelidge of buying one of the floor and he still walked out with no equipment.

 

Brian