For those of you interested in what lane splitting in LA looks like

[ghaverkamp]

The section reads poorly because it appears to prohibit these activities, however, the prohibition applies only to trikes.

 

It reads poorly, because it does prohibit those activities by the Corbin Sparrow.

 

I'm not wholly convinced the statutory interpretation would shake out like you think. That doesn't mean it wouldn't. It's clear not many people take their tickets far on appeal.

 

”Motorcyclists and motorized bicyclists; operation of vehicles; prohibited areas”

 

Thus, the section applies to motorcycles per the heading of the section.

 

An alternative reading is this. The Corbin Sparrow -- and other three-wheeled motorcycles that fall within the specifications -- is a motorcycle, and it is prohibited by the restrictions that follow.

 

(a) Operate the vehicle in any lane established under Section 21655.5 as an exclusive or preferential use lane for high occupancy vehicles.

 

This is the subsection that allows motorcycles (2 wheels) to ride in the carpool lane.

 

Well, no, actually. Cal. Veh. Code § 21655.5(b) allows motorcycles to ride in the carpool lane:

"No person shall drive a vehicle upon those lanes except in conformity with the instructions imparted by the official traffic control devices. A motorcycle, a mass transit vehicle, or a paratransit vehicle that is clearly and identifiably marked on all sides of the vehicle with the name of the paratransit provider may be operated upon those exclusive or preferential use lanes unless specifically prohibited by a traffic control device."

 

The language of the statute strikes me as being very clear. "The driver of a vehicle described in subdivision (f) of Section 27803 shall not do either of the following . . . ." The only way to read that language to allow other motorcycles to do those things is to assume that the legislature intended to allow it through omission.

 

However, geek that I am, this afternoon I read through the various committee, Senate, and Assembly reports on this legislation, and you won't find your position in the legislative history. That they ban one type of vehicle in a class from doing one thing doesn't mean all other vehicles in a class can necessarily do it, or that it doesn't fall under some other restriction. Rather, the legislative history makes it very clear that this legislation started life to allow the Corbin Sparrow to be treated as a motorcycle while being exempt from the helmet law. Along the way, it also got banned from HOV lanes, which was not a Corbin goal.

 

While I like your end result, it strikes me that you're counting a little too heavily on a statutory topic heading to rule the day and to suggest that is otherwise prohibited is somehow permitted because elsewhere it's explicitly prohibited for one class of motorcycles.

[MotorinLA]

The language of the statute strikes me as being very clear. "The driver of a vehicle described in subdivision (f) of Section 27803 shall not do either of the following . . . ." The only way to read that language to allow other motorcycles to do those things is to assume that the legislature intended to allow it through omission.

 

I see your argument as it applies to subsection (a), as the Corbin Sparrow may be considered a motorcycle under VC 400(a) (Definition of a motorcycle). VC 21714 therefore excludes this particular vehicle and others like it from using the carpool lane.

 

However, the presence of subsection (b) makes no sense, unless these activities are accepted practices for other “motorcycles” and motorized bicycles. Why would the legislature create a law that makes it illegal for a certain type of vehicle to do something that is already illegal for all vehicles?

 

I agree that until there is case law to decide this issue, it could be open to interpretation.

[ghaverkamp]

However, the presence of subsection (b) makes no sense, unless these activities are accepted practices for other “motorcycles” and motorized bicycles. Why would the legislature create a law that makes it illegal for a certain type of vehicle to do something that is already illegal for all vehicles?

 

Because legislators are inconsistent, and in their zeal to pass a company-specific law (the original of this section was provided by Corbin), they wanted to be sure to restrict what the Sparrows could do without addressing lane sharing at all. So, they took a quick shot at preventing lane sharing/splitting by Sparrows without referring to some ambiguous, undefined activity.

 

So, sure, I'd turn directly to this language and your argument if I was trying to defend myself against a ticket for riding the paint. I'm just not convinced it's anywhere near a slam dunk.

[Green RT]

-my opinion they are the pigs of the road.(sore subject)

I have the opposite opinion of 18 wheel drivers. I find they are often the best drivers on the road, not surprising since the do it full time for a living. They are courteous, they keep right except to pass, they use their lights to communicate when they pass or are passed. They always wave back when I wave at them on two lane highways.

[Green RT]

What disturbed me the most in the video was the rider’s apparent lack of ever checking his blind spot. It appeared to be a helmet cam, which never looked anywhere but straight forward. If you shoot across multiple lanes in heavy traffic, without checking your blind spot, you’re asking to get creamed by another rider whose also splitting traffic.

 

I agree. The biggest danger when lane splitting is not the cars. They usually are pretty restricted in their mobility by all the congestion. The big danger is some other bike taking a different path filtering through the cars.

[AdventurePoser]

What you are about to see is entirely legal in California. Found this posted on a Harley message board I frequent. Don't know what make of bike, though it hardly matters.

 

 

Sorry, it's not. There are a whole host of vehicle code violations here, and I only watched the first few seconds of the video.

 

Be safe out there,

 

Steve in So Cal

[SteveSardone]

I know this is subjective but in my experience driving mostly from dallas to the east they don't do any of those things. They don't at all stay in the right lane, they constantly change lanes in front of you and they make no effort assist the flow of traffic. I believe they used to be the best, professional drivers on the road but not anymore. I've probably been cutoff by more truck drivers than soccer moms on cell phones.

[OldBoldPilot]

What you are about to see is entirely legal in California. Found this posted on a Harley message board I frequent. Don't know what make of bike, though it hardly matters.

 

 

Sorry, it's not. There are a whole host of vehicle code violations here, and I only watched the first few seconds of the video.

 

Be safe out there,

 

Steve in So Cal

 

Well, Steve, you may be right. But if you read through the entire (admittedly not always entertaining) thread, you'd see that your opinion is open to some quite well-informed debate.

 

Philip

[AdventurePoser]

Hey, my chimp is a "kinder gentler" chimp than yours!

 

Steve in So Cal

[AdventurePoser]

Well, Steve, you may be right. But if you read through the entire (admittedly not always entertaining) thread, you'd see that your opinion is open to some quite well-informed debate.

 

Philip

 

Hmmm...I don't think so. Lanesplitting in the form portrayed in this video is not "entirely legal." The CVC has been cited pretty extensively on this post. The rider in the video is guilty of several CVCs. Check the CVC, watch the video, and draw your own conclusions.

 

Have fun and ride safely,

 

Steve in So Cal

[Quinn]

Okay, I still don't understand the logic. You are afraid that if you stay in your lane some negligent breakfast eating, cellphone using, etc. will rear end you or cause a domino that includes you. Okay, I agree. Yet, how do you depend on those same cellphone using, breakfast eating, negligent drivers to stay centered in their lane? If they can't see a motorcycle or a car in front of them, how do you expect them to see you zipping up on their side from behind?

[ghaverkamp]

Yet, how do you depend on those same cellphone using, breakfast eating, negligent drivers to stay centered in their lane? If they can't see a motorcycle or a car in front of them, how do you expect them to see you zipping up on their side from behind?

 

First, they move left-to-right far more slowly than they are moving forward. There's more time to take action. Second, there are warning signs; they look in their mirrors, or they start to drift over. Finally, I usually try to limit my lane sharing when there's a gap to my right; instead, I fill the gap. If there's no gap, there's less of a problem, because the morons who won't see the motorcycle zipping up their side are still likely to notice the car sitting there.

[russell_bynum]

Yet, how do you depend on those same cellphone using, breakfast eating, negligent drivers to stay centered in their lane? If they can't see a motorcycle or a car in front of them, how do you expect them to see you zipping up on their side from behind?

 

First, they move left-to-right far more slowly than they are moving forward. There's more time to take action. Second, there are warning signs; they look in their mirrors, or they start to drift over. Finally, I usually try to limit my lane sharing when there's a gap to my right; instead, I fill the gap. If there's no gap, there's less of a problem, because the morons who won't see the motorcycle zipping up their side are still likely to notice the car sitting there.

 

+1

 

Though it does occasionally happen, people don't often change lanes into someone who's directly beside them.

 

The other important thing to consider is that most people are not comfortable driving so close to another vehicle that a motorcycle can't fit between them.

 

The risk is when you are splitting when there's an open gap on one side. You can mitigate that risk by moving into the gap rather than splitting right up next to the other vehicle.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

What Russell said. In fact, a good deal of the time, the subject of this rather long topic does exactly that. He doesn't once or twice but, for the most part, when a lane is open for more than a car length or two, he moves into it.

 

One of the biggest arguments in favor of making your speed differential a little higher than would seem prudent is the distracted drivers. They tend to drift rather than make sudden moves and by running a bit faster, you spend less time in the drift zone.

 

Greg pointed this out as well. Splitting isn't so much about riding skills, for the most part, you are going in a more or less straight line with a little weave to even up the gap. It is much more about traffic reading skills. The clues are there, you just have to learn to see them.

[St0nkingByte]

Don't know if any of you guys took a look at part 1...

 

 

The guy that filmed this makes a few comments under that one including...

 

riding a V4 Honda (1986 VFR to be exact.)

 

and...

 

I'll agree that my riding is flawed, but I am a human being and always striving to improve.

Again: I HAVE BEEN SPLITTING LANES 5 DAYS A WEEK FOR OVER 5 YEARS AS A MOTORCYCLE MESSENGER AND HAVE BEEN SAFE AND CAREFUL IN THAT TIME. MY SURVIVAL IS NOT JUST BLIND LUCK. I RIDE 500+ MILES PER WEEK, MUCH OF IT BETWEEN THE LA TRAFFIC. IT IS SAFE AND IT IS LEGAL. Thanks for your thoughts.

A

[St0nkingByte]

This guy is so much better at lane splitting than the first guy!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij_5UPWs9qE

 

[Agent_Orange]

[smiller]

This guy is so much better at lane splitting than the first guy!

Actually, he is... (well, except maybe for the wheelee )

[Jason_H]

The video was entertaining for the 1st couple of mins. becuz the angle of the lens does make it look scarier than it actually is. The rider appears to be well aware of his environment. But after the 4th or 5th min. I realized I just watched some guys daily commute.

Albeit a mellower version, this is daily life for some of us in So.Cal. This is THE reason I own a BMW. No need for coffe when you get to work.

[rrrich]

In LA getting jiggy wid cars came naturally...I actually grew to like the intimacy...kinda like cozying up to tigers...thrilling, illicit, immensly satisfying.

 

Now that I walk to work and watch someone else do it I'm reminded me how close to the edge we live, and miss it.

 

Now instead I play with bolders and pines and old trucks on blind curves in los montanas.

 

Throw your head back and laugh for tomorrow we go to Torrey...

[Dias]

Check out this NYC version!

 

[soboy]

I found that video exhausting to watch - I would imagine that actual lane splitting must require truly intense concentration. I'll bet it is nerve wracking the first time you try it!

 

Seems to me the SV650's closing speed is a tad too high compared to the cages. I just got the feeling he is not long for this world if he does that every day.

 

I'd definitely want some off-road, billet bark-buster handguards like I have on my DR650 if I tried this.

 

The only time I ever saw anyone lane split was in Florida, years ago. I was sitting in stopped traffic and a guy on a UJM was lane splitting thru the mess when he took out a driver's door mirror two cars ahead of me. I remember it like it was yesterday - not a pretty scene.

 

For those of you in CA who lane split on a daily basis - you guys have guts.

[Chris_H]

I decided to to some splitting today, on I-80 West through Berkeley as traffic was probably at about 5-10mph for 3-4 miles. For me, the key is superfocus, and looking ahead about 3-4 seconds if able. Splitting between trucks and SUVs can be (as they say in golf) a game of Milimeters, and the RT isn't the optimal bike to do it. I never cranked out of 2nd gear, and was in 1st most of the time. My right foot is always over the brake and I assume I will have to slam to a full stop at ANY time.

 

Most folks are nice and move over to increase the gap, but once in a while a jack*** will try and squeeze your space. Thing is, if you "expect it" you don't become angry and pissed off - I mean, you are getting special treatment by shooting the gap, and ha ha ha, I'm going home faster than any other commuter.

 

I'll be drinkin' a cold one while others are sitting still on a 5 lane freeway if Mr. Humvee doesn't pull a fast one on me.

 

Couldn't do it everyday though - your are right, too much energy and focus required.

[ESokoloff]

Check out this NYC version!

 

 

I hope this doesn't give ALL bicyclist a bad rap

[MotorinLA]

Check out this NYC version!

 

 

Only in NYC. In LA those guys would get about a block before someone turned them into road-pizza (running red lights on a bicycle is counter-evolutionary (hey, I think I made up a new word...)

[Bonkorama]

Back in 1978, before I was married, I had a roommate who was a NYC transplant.

One day, he received a call from a NYC LEO informing him his mom had been struck by a bicycle messenger while she was crossing the street in the crosswalk, and was killed.

The messenger never stopped.

 

THAT would have taken real bravery (or decency, I forget which).

[texasaggie97]

Wow great post I did not know I could lane split when the traffic was moving. I was told that anything over 15 MPH was illegal to lane split. Well I know now that guy was full of ____. I love to lane split and I have to admite it is a blast.

Thanks for great posts

[Rickster]

Classic LA traffic.

Occasional lanesplitter myself.

The intense focus one must keep to do this successfully, is simply exhausting.

 

 

 

Me too, and it's nerve-wracking. You can't let down your guard at all

[bmwdude]

I think that I hit my shoulder on the mirror of that yellow van while I was watching. I hope that the pace of the video is a bit faster than reality was that day...and the music....I would have picked Tangerine Dream...or Jarre or something....very nice...If I were to do that you all would have seen cars cutting me off and car doors taking me out....

[JonathanE]

Time to go split the usual 30 miles of stop and go traffic to get home.

 

Riding in San Francisco is scary. Splitting lanes on a multi-lane freeway is not, at least not to me.

[Bobnoxous]

When I first came to CA, I wouldn't think about lane splitting, but it grows on you.

 

Stage 1: You're not splitting, you're just moving between 2 lanes as traffic allows. Being on a bike, this is easy to do.

 

Stage 2: Pretty soon, when you switch lanes, you're staying close to the line. No reason to move over if you're just going to come back soon.

 

Stage 3: you don't really move off the line, but you still wait for openings to move forward.

 

Stage 4: I can fit between those 2 Escalades.

 

One thing on the video. The way the rider moves multiple lanes assumes there's not another bike riding that new line. There's simply no way while lane splitting you can check your blind spots before taking a new line. You have to watch the traffic in front. Hence, if there was another bike splitting on that line, you're going to collide.

 

Lane splitting on one line I will do. Jumping between lanes I will not. Not only does it hurt to hit another bike, but bouncing off cars afterwards isn't any fun either (I'm just presuming).

[Twisties]

My mom lived in the Bay area for 20 years and I've driven there and No. Cal. quite a bit, on business too. Never actually saw anyone lane split. Went to LA on a business trip last fall, and just about took out a lane splitter as I made a properly signaled, properly head checked lane change in stop and go traffic. I'd never even heard of lane splitting (incidentally, this is not "lane sharing", lane sharing is riding bikes two abreast in one lane, or one left and one right staggered with less than normal following distance, it is legal in Utah, but I don't do it) at that point.

 

It only takes one of me to take you out. I am a careful driver, but not a CA driver. We do visit..

 

I damn near had a heart attack, it was some minutes before I settled down. It was a very unpleasant and dangerous experience.

 

He was going, I would say, about 50 mph, me about 10. There is absolutely no way I can account for that kind of closing speed with a head/mirror check in that heavy traffic with very limited visibility around the other vehicles, and if he had been dodging in and out of traffic, as in the original video, there is no way to even know he is in the vicinity. You do this, even with experienced CA drivers, you can not assume the cager has the slightest idea you are there.

 

Well I figured out it must be legal because by the time I got out of that traffic, I must have been passed by 30 of them. Mostly all on sport bikes and all going about 40 to 50, with a great deal of zest.

 

If you Californians want to do it, I can see that it would be quite a rush, go for it. I'll be the last one to tell you to stop, just don't try tell me it's safe. It is not even close to safe.

 

Regards the rear end is worse theory: I don't think a 5-10 mph rear-end will kill you.

[wbrissette]

wow! When I lived in CA, I only had to drive in LA a couple of times (I was stuck in 29 Palms where you didn't have to lane split) and I never even considered it. After watching this, I'm not sure I have the guts to do it. I know I don't riding an RT... maybe a nice Buell Lightning or Firebolt, but not the RT. I say this because the RT is pretty wide. It does surprise me that a few people here have done it on RTs. Although I'm sure it's a mental thing, maybe with the bags removed I MIGHT (might being the key word) try it on an RT, but I still think the RTs width wouldn't be helpful in lane splitting.

 

Wayne

[leikam]

I ride with the city cases; the mirrors are the widest part of the bike. My RT is 35" wide and you learn pretty quickly exactly how wide that is: turns out it's a lot narrower than you might think. There are narrower bikes out there (the buell XB's spec says 32") but those 3" aren't a problem in most traffic.

 

Case in point, one day I was splitting along on the RT and a guy on an HD dresser caught up to me. He was going a bit faster than I care to so I let him by. Following him for a while, I could tell that he was in very good control of his bike. He knew how wide it was, where he would fit and how to put it exactly where he wanted. Not long after, we both caught up to a guy on a sportbike who was inching along very tentatively. His bike was physically narrower than either of ours, but both his riding confidence/skill and ability to judge widths kept him back.

[harleyjohn45]

I ride with the city cases; the mirrors are the widest part of the bike. My RT is 35" wide and you learn pretty quickly exactly how wide that is: turns out it's a lot narrower than you might think. There are narrower bikes out there (the buell XB's spec says 32") but those 3" aren't a problem in most traffic.

 

Case in point, one day I was splitting along on the RT and a guy on an HD dresser caught up to me. He was going a bit faster than I care to so I let him by. Following him for a while, I could tell that he was in very good control of his bike. He knew how wide it was, where he would fit and how to put it exactly where he wanted. Not long after, we both caught up to a guy on a sportbike who was inching along very tentatively. His bike was physically narrower than either of ours, but both his riding confidence/skill and ability to judge widths kept him back.

 

 

the guy on the sport bike may not be a lane splitter, he could have been a good rider. i don't know the life expectancy of a lane splitter is, but i do know 50 people personally who would delight in helping a lane splitter into the next world.

[leikam]

i do know 50 people personally who would delight in helping a lane splitter into the next world.

 

I suppose it's a good thing for everybody who rides that murderous thoughts are far more common than murderous actions. But I appreciate the offer.

[DouglasR]

 

Looked wreckless to me.

 

The rider is abusing the gift of lanesharing just a bit.

 

 

I only watched the first 40 seconds!

 

No kidding! I was getting queasy after the first few seconds too! I don't think I would ever get comfy enough with traffic to do that. I've seen so many assinine random maneuvers by car drivers that I could just never ever feel safe enough to do that. Maybe if the other traffic was at a dead stop and I wanted to sneak around a truck or two, but NEVER like that.

 

And I will NEVER live in an area that has traffic like that, period. Thankfully I have that option.

 

I've gotta go change my diaper now.

 

Doug

[Darren]

My ride to work does not involve multi lanes like your highways, but I spend most of my ride between lanes on my R1100RT with both side cases on, and I pass much narrower bikes as well, keep the brakes covered and in 2nd gear and the bike does the work for you, . Its takes me 30 minutes in the car to travel 7 miles, I can get to work in about 15 on the bike

Lane splitting or filtering as we call it in England is about confidence and being alert

ride safe

Darren

[kingpinofdisks]

Interesting.

 

I probably have more lane splitting experience than 99.9% of people - I fix computers, and drive my bike from site to site all day, heavy traffic, lots of lane splitting, to the tune of 21K miles/year of commute (vs 5K miles of fun riding) time.

 

I got clipped on the freeway 2 months ago. It was 25-35mph traffic, and the guy made a quick lane change right into me. I wasen't splitting at the time, but wish I were splitting.

 

In general, lane splitting over 30mph is STOOPID, dangerous, and a great way to get hit. I have tested my own reaction times at different lane splitting speeds (+5, +10,+15,+20,up to +35 mph faster than traffic) and I can't react quickly to a lane change at +10mph faster than traffic. And I have very good road intuition - I read 'car language' (similar to human body language) very quickly and react quickly to possible changes in my traffic environment.

 

However, NOT lanesplitting is also dangerous - my last truck was totaled on the 405 freeway when I was rear-ended - the guy who hit me caused a 5-car chain collission. If I am going with the flow around 35+ mph, I stay to the right of the fast lane, and watch wayyy ahead for brake lites so I can transition in/out of lane splitting mode as needed.

 

Intuition, anticipation, reaction, are all part of the lane splitting equation. But if traffic is moving 20-40mph, and you split quickly thru it, you are asking for major trouble eventually.

[Bonkorama]

I'm a 2nd Gear lane splitter in creeping traffic. As soon as it picks up I get back into the #1 lane, and go with the flow. I prefer the left lane as it gives me a place to go if I need to make a panic stop: the emergency lane.

[MotorinLA]

IMO, contrary to the belief of many contributors in this thread, lane splitting at high speed is actually less dangerous than low speed. Yes, if you do go down at high speed it's going to hurt A LOT more. However, at high speeds drivers generally don't make moves as quickly as at low speeds and their vehicles are much more parallel to the direction of travel, giving the lane splitter a greater number of avenues of escape. The guy who's going to jack you is that guy who decides to change lanes when traffic is moving at 5 mph. He turns his car almost perpendicular to the direction of traffic, as he slowly tries to squeeze into the lane next to him, often leaving his rear end hanging out across the lane divider.

 

Personally I'd rather be splitting traffic in 75+ mph traffic than in traffic moving at 5-10 mph.

[Francis]

Anything approaching this type of activity in this part of the world would have a very short video with an abrupt ending.

[Tony_K]

Personally I'd rather be splitting traffic in 75+ mph traffic than in traffic moving at 5-10 mph

 

No offense but this is a rather irresponsible statement from someone who wears a shield.

[bvaughan]

Personally I'd rather be splitting traffic in 75+ mph traffic than in traffic moving at 5-10 mph

No offense but this is a rather irresponsible statement from someone who wears a shield.

actually, it's a refreshingly candid statement, since CA LEOs split at 80mph+ all the time. but what's a civilian to say to a CHP cager when she pulls him over for a 75mph lane split?

[AviP]

All this talk about lane splitting has got me interested in mounting a camcorder while I lane split 18-wheelers regularly on the Cross Bronx Expy. It's stressful, no doubt, but necessary.

[leikam]

what's a civilian to say to a CHP cager when she pulls him over for a 75mph lane split?

 

Last time I split past a CHP cruiser at 75+, he didn't pull me over. And fwiw, I agree about the increased risk in splitting slow moving traffic on the freeway. The sort of frustration that leads to impulsive, poorly-executed lane changes decreases with speed.

[gottago]

+1 Ed. Couple of thoughts: After Russell told me to look at the hole not the cars and the idea that I'm safer being a (reasonably) moving target, it became easier. (Thx, Russell)

I've only lane split a few times but coming back from Encinatas this morning, freeway stopped. Remembered this post and tried it. Worked great...Thanks Russell & GelStra

[MotorinLA]

what's a civilian to say to a CHP cager when she pulls him over for a 75mph lane split?

 

Last time I split past a CHP cruiser at 75+, he didn't pull me over. And fwiw, I agree about the increased risk in splitting slow moving traffic on the freeway. The sort of frustration that leads to impulsive, poorly-executed lane changes decreases with speed.

 

Unless traffic is light (I which case the discussion about lane splitting is moot in the first place) most CHP officers in cars are not likely to chase you. The chances of catching a motorcycle in medium, or heavy density, fast moving traffic while driving a car are very low. Keep in mind that most CA LE departments have pursuit policies that prohibit/discourage pursuits for infractions only.

 

It is the Chippies on motorcycles you have to worry about.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

I'll agree that lane sharing is less likely to result in an accident when you're travelling at higher speeds. I'll disagree that it's "less dangerous."

 

If I crash while lane sharing at 30 mph, I'm less likely to find myself under the wheels of a nearby car than if I crash lane sharing at 50+. The "less maneuverable" argument used in favor of sharing at high speeds can also be used to point out that you're pretty sure to get run over if you go down.

 

I've set a personal limit of 50 MPH. I'll very rarely share faster than that unless I come across a "rolling roadblock" situation. The risk/time benefit of sharing much faster than 50 MPH doesn't make sense to me- and I'm sure there are a lot of people who will argue that even 50 is too fast.

[MotorinLA]

Returning to the original post for a second. The guy in LA has nothing on this guy from France...

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5610091068213003526&q=pascal+peripherique

 

Average speed around the Peripherique (Freeway that encircles Paris) = 191 km/h, or approximately 120 mph.

 

See, I told you it was safer to split traffic at higher speeds...