Backing down an incline

[Rusty1945]

I have on occasion a need to back my bike down a ramp from a shed. It's a wide ramp so no issue with footing other than dealing with the slope. Some of my riding buddies say the best way to control speed is to use the clutch rather than either brake. I've always thought that when backing down an incline you should use the front brake. Seems like using the clutch is similar to using the rear brake. Would like to know the groups view on this.

[USAF1]

I'd vote for brakes.

 

Pat

[Mike]

I have no doubt how I'd do it: the front brakes (only). I'd want the braking force to be on the tire that's to the rear, relative to your direction of travel. Also, it seems to me that it would seem to me that if you got rolling too fast, using the clutch for braking force could cause you to come to an unexpected, lurching halt if you let it out too fast. Definitely the front brakes.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Seems like using the clutch is similar to using the rear brake.

 

Except if the engine ends up unexpectedly turning through a compression event, the sudden lack of resistance from the driveline might throw your balance off. Not only that, but the 1100/1150 boxer motor reportedly doesn't like to be spun backwards; IIRC, the nylon cam chain guide gets shattered, requiring you to tear the bike apart and split the crankcase for replacement. Very bad deal. Don't know if the 1200's are like this, but until someone knows for certain, it seems risky.

 

I always use front brake when backing down inclines. Did your buddies offer any rationale as to why they though the clutch was the way to go?

[Tasker]

I have no doubt how I'd do it: the front brakes (only). I'd want the braking force to be on the tire that's to the rear, relative to your direction of travel. Also, it seems to me that it would seem to me that if you got rolling too fast, using the clutch for braking force could cause you to come to an unexpected, lurching halt if you let it out too fast. Definitely the front brakes.

 

Yeeahh...definitely...definitely the front brakes. Yeeahh...

[Albert]

Well I know something about this one. I have backed my bikes down my driveway for 30+ years now. Usually between a stone wall and the cars. The driveway's steep and at the bottom I have to negotiate a 90 turn onto my street which slopes steeply up to my left so I have to make sure I've got enough momentum to back up the hill and get straight. If it sounds complicated, it is. I've had more than one friend tip over at one point or another. I've also had more than one friend let me back their bikes out if they pull up to my garage. Here's a couple of things I've learned (some the hard way):

 

1. Brakes are what I use when backing up. No problem there. It is fairly easy to lock the front wheel but again, it's not a problem going backwards.

2. Watch out for full lock turns when going backwards. You'll get a much different reaction to hitting the brakes at full lock when going backwards. It can put you down in a hurry. Leave a little slack near the lock.

3. Inspect the path you're backing down before you start. Leaves, puddles, ice etc. will never be seen once you're backing down a hill.

4. Use the mirrors as much as you can. Craning your neck around backwards is a poor position for balancing. I find I can, on a good day, back most of the way down my driveway using mirrors only and not put my feet down (yes it's practiced).

5.If you have to make sharp turns going backwards try keeping your head up and looking forward (refer to item 3 above first). Your balance when backing is much better if you're using the relative horizon in front of you for input as to level/leaning.

 

As I said I've been forced to learn to back down hills and, like anything else, it's a skill that can be learned and practiced. Plus you'll get some great stares from car drivers watching you back down the driveway with your feet up.

[JoeV]

OK I'm not saying I disagree with "use the front brake" but...

 

Perhap, while backing down a ramp, the rear tire might provide better breaking power.

 

The steeper the ramp the more weight would be shifted to the back tire. Therefore breaking with the back tire would provide the most stopping.

 

That said I think I'd rather keep both feet on the ground, to help balance the bike, and use my hand to grab the front brake.

 

This may be why someone had suggested to the origial poster to use the clutch. Since that would modulate braking the

rear wheel while allowing the rider to keep both feet on the ground.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Perhap, while backing down a ramp, the rear tire might provide better breaking power.

 

The steeper the ramp the more weight would be shifted to the back tire. Therefore breaking with the back tire would provide the most stopping.

 

If we were racing backwards and needed to brake late and hard before entering a backwards corner, I suppose this might be an issue.

 

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

[Couchrocket]

Perhaps, while backing down a ramp, the rear tire might provide better breaking power.

Your idea sounds rational but it doesn't work out that way. If the bike were to try to get away from you and you did hard back braking on a steep incline -- I guarantee you wouldn't like the results. OTOH, I have had situations where I've had the front brake on hard enough to make the front tire skid to a stop . . . coming down an incline back wards. It works just fine.

 

And, as for trying to use the clutch to modulate rearward speed going back wards down an incline... well to be honest -- that's right up there with the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time! You could get into serious trouble in about two nanoseconds if something went wrong.

[Rusty1945]

Seems like using the clutch is similar to using the rear brake.

 

Did your buddies offer any rationale as to why they though the clutch was the way to go?

Here's their rationale (paraphrased): With the bike off, don't use the brakes to slow yourself, use the clutch. It's fairly easy to modulate over a long travel distance to back down just as slowly as you like. It has a dead-man's-trigger effect if things get away from you too (i.e. if your hand comes off, the bike stops), unlike the brake.

 

I don't buy it, but wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

[Tasker]

I can't find where you originally mentioned that the bike would be off, but I'd still use the front brake. Using the clutch with the bike running is dangerous, using it with the bike off doesn't make much sense and is hard on the clutch, IMHO.

[russell_bynum]

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

 

When I'm backing a bike down the ramp from the bed of my truck, the front brake isn't enough. The front wheel easily locks and the bike runs away from you.

 

I use front brake and clutch, with the bike in gear (with the engine off), and that works great.

 

Rear brake isn't an option in that situation since I'm not on the bike.

 

I'm not sure how steep the OP's ramp is, but I'd plan on front brake, but I'd have the bike in gear, engine off, and clutch in ready to use the clutch if necessary.

[Tasker]

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

 

When I'm backing a bike down the ramp from the bed of my truck, the front brake isn't enough. The front wheel easily locks and the bike runs away from you.

 

I use front brake and clutch, with the bike in gear (with the engine off), and that works great.

 

Rear brake isn't an option in that situation since I'm not on the bike.

 

I'm not sure how steep the OP's ramp is, but I'd plan on front brake, but I'd have the bike in gear, engine off, and clutch in ready to use the clutch if necessary.

 

Oh sure, it figures you'd be the one to go against conventional wisdom...

[jfremder]

I'm with Russ on this. I've had a number of situations; i.e. steep/wet/slick ramp, where the front brake isn't enough. I use both.

[russell_bynum]

Oh sure, it figures you'd be the one to go against conventional wisdom...

 

Well...I agreed with conventional wisdom...front brake is your best bet. But sometimes that isn't enough if the ramp is really steep.

 

Wait a minute...the OP has a R1200RT, right? That's got partially-linked brakes, doesn't it?

 

So...turn the key on to energize the servos, and back it down using the front brake lever...which acuates both brakes.

 

Right?

[Tasker]

So...turn the key on to energize the servos, and back it down using the front brake lever...which acuates both brakes.

 

Touche'!

[David]

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

 

When I'm backing a bike down the ramp from the bed of my truck, the front brake isn't enough. The front wheel easily locks and the bike runs away from you.

 

I use front brake and clutch, with the bike in gear (with the engine off), and that works great.

 

Rear brake isn't an option in that situation since I'm not on the bike.

 

I'm not sure how steep the OP's ramp is, but I'd plan on front brake, but I'd have the bike in gear, engine off, and clutch in ready to use the clutch if necessary.

 

Same for me. It would slide way too fast with just the front brake, which is unloaded (since it's up in the air and the weight is transferred to the rear).

[Quinn]

I back out of my basement down a gravel driveway and get turned around at the low point to drive up the rest of it. I pretty much just duck walk it backwards using the front brake and sliding on the gravel. I try to get the front wheel straightened before braking. At some point, I just let it go, turn the wheel to get my butt pointed back uphill. Again, I try to get the wheel straightened before braking.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

 

When I'm backing a bike down the ramp from the bed of my truck, the front brake isn't enough. The front wheel easily locks and the bike runs away from you.

 

I use front brake and clutch, with the bike in gear (with the engine off), and that works great.

 

Rear brake isn't an option in that situation since I'm not on the bike.

 

I'm not sure how steep the OP's ramp is, but I'd plan on front brake, but I'd have the bike in gear, engine off, and clutch in ready to use the clutch if necessary.

 

Same for me. It would slide way too fast with just the front brake, which is unloaded (since it's up in the air and the weight is transferred to the rear).

 

Criminy, is this a 45-degree polished steel ramp slicked with bearing grease?

 

Shows how much I know. this is what I get for riding my RT everywhere.

 

I guess if you gotta use the clutch then ya gotta. But I'd still be concerned about accidentally turning the engine backwards.

[russell_bynum]

But I'd still be concerned about accidentally turning the engine backwards.

 

So what's the risk there. I mean...if you just turn it over slowly, that's no big deal, right? Cam chain tensioners don't just shatter with a little backwards rotation, do they?

[KCSheila]

Sorry just couldn't pass up an opportunity to remark about Joe's change from Joe-Friggin'-Friday to Sanjaya. I am still rolling from that.

 

All that said, hope your other Joe-Friggin' comes back some day,

 

Back to the question at hand. I used to have a very steep concrete driveway and the ONLY way to get down that thing was using the front brake only. I just focused on an object in my garage to keep my head forward and the bike backing down straight and never dumped it there. I tend to drop mine in the easy parking lots, etc. Funny, but not really.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Wow, all this fuss over going in a direction the motorcycle was never designed to go.

 

For the folks with long, steep driveways, and no way to turn around in the garage first, you have my sympathy. Use whatever means is at your disposal. I side with Mitch on using the clutch with, the motor off, as a deterrent on an R-bike if there is any chance that the motor will be turned backwards. Motor running should be no problem and that is what I would choose, astride the bike of course.

 

As to the ramp thing, I would pretty much do the same although here you have a different situation. You really only have one enemy and that is momentum. Don't allow the bike to gain any speed and you'll be fine using the front brake. Even a very steep ramp with a smooth metal surface offers some traction and, so long as you don't get it moving and then try to stop it, you should be fine. Very small increments of wheel rotation and slow progress down the ramp should do in almost all cases. Keep that momentum thing in mind.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

But I'd still be concerned about accidentally turning the engine backwards.

 

So what's the risk there. I mean...if you just turn it over slowly, that's no big deal, right? Cam chain tensioners don't just shatter with a little backwards rotation, do they?

 

I don't know how much it takes. In all honestly, I'm repeating something I read once in the oilhead forum, not sure who wrote it. But the assertion was that if the engine was spun backwards the cam chain would catch an edge of the nylon guide and pull on it until the guide broke. I don't know whether this was due to special circumstances, e.g. cam sprocket off, cam tensioner out, etc. or if it would also happen in a fully assembled condition. It's also possible it was total speculation, and that this has never actually happened to anyone at all under any circumstances.

 

So I'm not saying you'll definitely damage an oilhead if you spin it backwards through a rev. But there isn't exactly a large body of experience that says "no problem" either. It's a bit like running your oil out to 10K miles: can't say it's OK for certain until a few people have actually done it and had their oil tested.

 

If you want to minimze the risk:

 

-keep the gearbox in first gear (hardest to turn the engine with the wheel);

-use the front brake for all it's worth (i.e. lock it up);

-only use the clutch to do what the front brake can't do;

-avoid rapid release of the clutch, during which the momentum of the bike might turn the engine.

[russell_bynum]

That's reasonable, Mitch.

 

In addition, keeping momentum at a minimum helps.

 

Ed, just FYI...I can bring the CBR to a STOP halfway down my ramp using the clutch and front brake. If I let the clutch out, the bike starts to slide backwards with the front wheel locked. Keeping momentum down helps, but it still isn't enough in some cases.

[Ken H.]

Criminy, is this a 45-degree polished steel ramp

Gee Mitch, I thought you've seen David's trailer! One could eat dinner off of it!

[bobbybob]

One thing I didn't see mentioned: you know how your bike wants to go down when you grab the front brake while moving forwards at low speed? Well it works exactly the same way when backing...so *maybe* using the clutch (i.e. REAR wheel) for braking when backing up would avoid that scenario ??

[motoguy128]

I have this issue when unloading my motorcycle off my trailer. The ramps are just painted steel and a little slippery. I typically leave the bike in gear and use the clutch as a rear brake since I cannot use the rear brake while walking it down. The ramp is steep enough that the front wheel will lock-up and the bike would slide all the way down.

 

In 1st gear, I'll lock up the rear wheel before I turn the engine.

[Lineareagle]

I back down a drive, road etc with front brake, engine on, first gear.

The reason, if for some reason you do get off line you release the clutch, reposition and start down again.

I usually do this when doing tight three point turns as well. Astride the bike, drive forward, reverse with feet, drive forward etc.

Guess it is from my trials days where you would find yourself backing steep, slippery as snot inclines when you blew a turn.

As for backing out of a truck, well, I hate doing it. I prefer at least two people to do it.

And if the ramp was slick I would be painting it with sand grip, talk about a quick way to destroy a fairing, bars, bags etc, etc!

Chills down my spine from the number of times I have almost lost a bike on a truck ramp.

[motorman587]

Front brake.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I've been loading and unloading bikes from an assortment of trailers, vans and pickup trucks since I started riding. For a number of years, while I was actively drag racing, that was twice a day, 3 days a week. High pickup trucks were the worst, generally, for a trailer, I'd just ride it up and ride it back off. Most times it was only a 2x10 about 8' long. Later, when I started to use wheelie bars as the bikes got faster, we'd just wheelbarrow the bike up there.

 

I've done many a street bike as well, including HD's which, for some reason really liked to be on the trailers. I never once had a problem on the ramp. Did lock up the front going into a van and skidded clear to the engine hatch (The ramp was pretty steep so I had to get a good bit of momentum going on the way up).

 

Once you get a little practice at it, it really isn't all that hard to just ease the rear wheel onto the ramp, using the front brake to control speed. Come to a stop when feet are about to go over the edge, make sure of your alignment and just pick your feet up, release the brakes and let 'er go. 2 seconds later, your at the bottom of the ramp and can apply some brake. The good news is the caster effect of the backwards moving front end will tend to keep the bars centered and with a nod to the Gods, you will have no problems.

 

I've seen far more bikes dropped while trying to ease them down than by the banzai method.

[LuckyLeif]

For a metal ramp or similar slippery surface I would:

be astride bike,

engine off, key off,

tranny in 2nd gear,

use clutch friction zone to modulate speed of descent

 

Alternatively, if the ramp has good traction I would use the front brake lever.

[mefly2]

Seriously tho, you'd have to be backing down an awfully steep ramp before the front brake would not be able to stop the bike. It is possible to lock up the front wheel briefly if you grab a handful of brake, but if a rider is backing down a ramp so fast that he needs that sort of aggressive braking, he's asking for trouble.

 

When I'm backing a bike down the ramp from the bed of my truck, the front brake isn't enough. The front wheel easily locks and the bike runs away from you.

 

I use front brake and clutch, with the bike in gear (with the engine off), and that works great.

 

Rear brake isn't an option in that situation since I'm not on the bike.

 

I'm not sure how steep the OP's ramp is, but I'd plan on front brake, but I'd have the bike in gear, engine off, and clutch in ready to use the clutch if necessary.

 

Same for me. It would slide way too fast with just the front brake, which is unloaded (since it's up in the air and the weight is transferred to the rear).

I'm with Russ on this. I've had a number of situations; i.e. steep/wet/slick ramp, where the front brake isn't enough. I use both.

Same experiences for me as well!

[Agent_Orange]

Use da brakes. Way too much ado about this.

[pickersgill1]

Hi

I might be wrong but I was uder the impression the BMW RT had a linked braking system, so whether applying the lever or brake pedal the result is the same?

 

Barkes are less expensive to replace than a worn out clutch!

 

With so much engine retardation on BMW RT's there is so much braking through the engine..

 

http://www.suffolk-advanced-motorcyclists.com

[bakerzdosen]

Hi

I might be wrong but I was uder the impression the BMW RT had a linked braking system, so whether applying the lever or brake pedal the result is the same?

Depends on the RT. The newer ones (R1200's) have partially linked brakes. IOW, the front brake operates both, but the pedal only operates the rear brake. However, you are correct about the 1150's and (from what I understand) most of the 1100's.

[Stan Walker]

However, you are correct about the 1150's and (from what I understand) most of the 1100's.

 

And you sir are not. The R1100RT's do NOT have linked brakes. They DO have ABS.

 

Stan

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Further to Stan's post, even the bikes with linked brakes only have them when the ignition is switched on. No power, no linky.

[bakerzdosen]

However, you are correct about the 1150's and (from what I understand) most of the 1100's.

 

And you sir are not. The R1100RT's do NOT have linked brakes. They DO have ABS.

 

Stan

I stand corrected. I went to look that up before posting it and then got distracted and then submitted it anyway. That's one of the differences between the two. Sorry. I got the twin spark and single spark's mixed up with the r1150's and the r1100's... I thought I'd read somewhere that some of the early single spark r1150rt's didn't have linked brakes... However, I can't find that anywhere, so I'm probably mixing that up too.

 

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

Sorry. I got the twin spark and single spark's mixed up with the r1150's and the r1100's... I thought I'd read somewhere that some of the early single spark r1150rt's didn't have linked brakes... However, I can't find that anywhere, so I'm probably mixing that up too.

 

 

Yep! Wrong again. Some 1150's (the early ones like mine) have single spark. Nothing a PC III won't cure though, or that silly plug and a good tune-up I keep reading about.