Zero Speed Drop Phenomena

[Keith S]

We do everything to keep our bikes pristine and the thought of dropping our pride and joy is unthinkable. Having said that, it seems that the “zero speed drop” is a rather common occurrence.

 

It happened to me today.

 

I was about to go into my garage which has a paved lane that is tapered to the center for water drainage (see attached photo). I was just initiating the turn through the transition point of the canter of the lane and the front end started to dive. My first instinct was to hit the front brake to stop the forward motion, which turned out to be the final deathblow in this chain of events. With the bike moving forward at a very low speed and slightly leaning to the right, the application of the front brake compressed the front suspension and there was nothing I could do except control the speed of the drop. Lucky for me I had installed valve cover protectors which took all damage and turned out to be just scrapes.

My question is why is this so prevalent? We are VERY aware of road conditions and the unpredictable driving habits of the cage drivers and yet we fall victim to the infamous “Zero Speed Drop”

 

Keith

[KCSheila]

I feel your pain. Dropped mine and got my foot under the pegs somehow and the whole weight of the bike came down when those pegs hit the side of my foot. I am still paying the price for that one. It is disheartening, even if you don't get injured. Sorry about the drop, glad YOU are ok.If you find the posts I have put on ride well, there is a wealth of information in there and lots to be learned.

[Green RT]

As you have already experienced, but for the benefit of others, you cannot touch the front brake with the handlebars turned at very slow speed. Use the rear brake. This requires being aware of situations where you might need to brake and either having a foot on the right peg, or room to straighten out. On the other hand, in reverse, like backing down my driveway, it is very safe to use the front brake.

 

Incidentally, I don't know what effect integrated brakes have since I don't have them. Maybe the rear brake isn't safe either. Then I suppose you can't brake with the bars turned, at slow speed.

[ESokoloff]

As you have already experienced, but for the benefit of others, you cannot touch the front brake with the handlebars turned at very slow speed. Use the rear brake.

 

 

Per Kye's profile: 1989 ZX10, 2003 RT

 

2003 RT = linked brakes

[Keith S]

Ouch KC, sad to hear about your misfortune. To tell you the truth I didn’t do a search before posting this, kind of figured it was new territory. I will do a search and see your posts.

 

Keith

[Keith S]

Got linked brakes on this RT, but I don't know if I would have been "quick thinking" enough to default to the rear brake in this situation, time frame from situation awareness and execution of corrective measure equals one to two seconds.

 

Keith

[Green RT]

Got linked brakes on this RT, but I don't know if I would have been "quick thinking" enough to default to the rear brake in this situation, time frame from situation awareness and execution of corrective measure equals one to two seconds.

That was my point about thinking ahead. If it is really an unexpected emergency, then braking and letting it fall to the ground may be the only choice. I had this happen to me at Costco about a year ago. I somebody walked in front of me as I was pulling out of my parking spot. I touched the front brake and watched it slowly fall to the ground.

[Keith S]

Will

That is a pretty good description of the feeling that I had during the drop. It was like..situation....action...result... in a blink of an eye.

 

Keith

[Green RT]

In my case the good news/bad news of the drop was that there were a bunch of people watching. So I had lots of help picking it up.

[Green RT]

Sheila, I followed the discussion of your foot injury in the other thread. Sorry to hear about it. I hope you recover fully, and go on to many more years of riding.

[Keith S]

Will

This brings me to second part of this situation.

PICKING UP THE BIKE

I have read threads on the proper way to pick up an RT but I have to tell you that when the embarrassment of the situation and the adrenaline flow kick in one tends to just react. The proper way to pick up a bike involves keeping you back to the bike and letting your legs do the work. My fear in this situation was that I would loose the bike and it would fall away from me once I picked it up. In hind sight it may have been a good idea to have put the side stand down first then pick the bike up from the right side.

 

Keith

[Keith S]

Folks

I will be out of town this week so please continue this thread and I will return next week.

 

Keith

[Bud]

I wish I had not just joined this ZSP (Zero Speed Drop) club.

 

Went out last night about 10:00 PM to adjust the Hella's I put on the bike several weeks ago.

 

Was satisfied that they were properly adjusted and not blinding the on coming drivers (wasn't even getting a high beam flash from anyone I met so that was good) and pulled off on the shoulder (blacktop) of the concrete highway. Had not come to a complete stop and started to make a U turn.

 

BAM

 

Down on the left side. I'm really pissed at myself for being so stupid.

 

This is a State highway, but we live in the country and there wasn't a lot of traffic. The bike is on the left side and pointing north in the south bound lane. Car heading north stops. Woman gets out as asks if she can help. I asked her to look out for south bound traffic while I try to get the bike back up. My lights are still on and my left blinker is flashing even though the mirror pod is off.

 

Car comes along headed south. She flashes her lights. I see it is not stopping and RUN way off the shoulder as it looks like they are not going to even try to stop and I will see my bike demolished in front of my own eyes.

 

Stops about 2 feet from the bike. A man. Drives around the bike w/o stopping.

 

I then have enough adrenalin that I go over and lift the bike up w/o any apparent effort.

 

Here is the damage.

 

 

 

Mirror glass is broken. The lower left edge of the black plastic "dash" is cracked. Is there any glue which will glue that hard, black plastic of the dash? Also scratched up the Hella housing and took a little of the powder coat off of the brand new eMp bracket.

 

I had ridden about 175 yesterday and did several U turns in parking lots. It wasn't like I hadn't practiced just hours before.

 

No damage to me, except for my pride and pocket book.

 

Is there a ten step program for ZSP members?

[Francois_Dumas]

Oooops, no valve cover guards ???????

 

Sorry for your mischief, but glad you didn't get run over while playing on the highway ! Can you do U-turns on them things over in the US !? Golly !

 

I am still firmly in denial myself, and have so far refused to drop the darn thing

[Bud]

Thanks for your concern.

 

Valve cover guards are only used in the US to conceal prior damage. Funny how they are designed that way.

 

Not sure if you mean is it possible to make a U turn with an RT or is it legal?

 

Yes to both.

[steve.foote]

Having said that, it seems that the “zero speed drop” is a rather common occurrence.

 

Think of it this way, Keith. You have 700+ pounds balanced on two contact patches each the size of a quarter. Everything is working against you at slow speed. It's almost inevitable to drop them.

[Stormrider]

Everyone's succumbed to this dreaded phenomena at one time or another. I've done it on more than one ocassion with bikes before. Some were just minor Doh's! and some not so pretty.

It just takes that split second of not so great manuvering etc. Gravel is my number 1 enemy!

[MikeB60]

Everyone's succumbed to this dreaded phenomena at one time or another. I've done it on more than one ocassion with bikes before.

+1

Some were just minor Doh's! and some not so pretty.

Especially ugly when you thought the kick stand was down but it wasn’t and there are about 10 other riders watching as you and the bike hit the ground

[GelStra]

Valve cover guards are only used in the US to conceal prior damage. Funny how they are designed that way.

Amen, bruddah!

Law of motos #1: The force of gravity is in indirect and opposite exponential proportion to the speed of the bike.

[Ken H.]

Got linked brakes on this RT, but I don't know if I would have been "quick thinking" enough to default to the rear brake in this situation, time frame from situation awareness and execution of corrective measure equals one to two seconds.

 

Keith

Might not done you any good anyway. On the linked brakes R1150RT a "stab" of the rear brake pedal would have locked the front one too anyway. A light pressure of the rear pedal might have saved you, but in reality applying brakes at full lock at zero mph is a recipe for a drop on most any bike.

[Alan D]

Linked brakes are not the problem, gravity is the problem.

My 1100rt does not have linked brakes. While astride the bike, I pushed it off the center stand, right in to a small pothole in the asphalt. The bike stopped, then listed to the right. I could not stop 600 plus pounds with might right foot. I have added this experience to my book of knowledge.

[loosecannon]

In probably one of the most embarrassing moments of my life, I dropped my brand new 1150RT in the EXPERIENCED rider course during the quick stop exercise. During the hard stop the bars got slightly turned just as I came to a complete stop, and over I went. As others have said, it was like slow motion. I couldn't muscle the bike to keep it up. I wanted to melt in to the pavement.

[BereIsland]

Welcome, I firmly believe that at zero speed we don't fall off the bike, the bike falls off us

Steve

[drharveys]

Valve cover guards are only used in the US to conceal prior damage. Funny how they are designed that way.

And there's no point in putting them on until there's actual scuffs to conceal.

 

My first tipover was at a stoplight, and assisted by some bar backs that didn't hold up to a sudden corrective movement. Second one was pure parking lot magic...

[ESokoloff]

Linked brakes are not the problem

 

They can be

[E30TECH]

Will

This brings me to second part of this situation.

PICKING UP THE BIKE

I have read threads on the proper way to pick up an RT but I have to tell you that when the embarrassment of the situation and the adrenaline flow kick in one tends to just react. The proper way to pick up a bike involves keeping you back to the bike and letting your legs do the work. My fear in this situation was that I would loose the bike and it would fall away from me once I picked it up. In hind sight it may have been a good idea to have put the side stand down first then pick the bike up from the right side.

 

Keith

 

Yes - you want the side stand down and make sure you are in gear.

 

I dropped my 04 RT at a stop sign due to a bad footing decision. I didn't care that some guy saw the whole I thing, I was upset that my bike is laying on the ground.

 

Thankfully, said guy watching helped me pick it up. That damn thing is heavy! I was able to pick it up, but I had him make sure it didn't fall over the other way.

 

That was 3 months ago and I'm still a little upset about it.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Should I even mention the time that unbeknownst to me, the starter pedal on my '67 HD XLCH had vibrated off and at one of my stops, the starter lever had gone up my bell bottom pants leg. The subsequent stop was a sight to behold as me and the bike toppled, acclerating at various fractions of one G, over to the ground. On the way down, I think I ran through every expletive I knew and probably invented a couple more as the thing lay there on my leg.

[litigator]

When I attampted to get off my GS without putting down the sidestand, the extra height made it catapult me about 8 feet from the bike as it fell.

[NoLongeraK1200RSRider]

In over 200,000 miles of riding all sorts of bikes without mishap.. I dropped my K12RS last summer.. while taking it down off the center stand. Standing alongside that bike is NOT the right way to take it down. First drop in all those miles and many, many starts and stops plus much slow speed, turns, etc.

[Bud]

In over 200,000 miles of riding all sorts of bikes without mishap.. I dropped my K12RS last summer.. while taking it down off the center stand. Standing alongside that bike is NOT the right way to take it down. First drop in all those miles and many, many starts and stops plus much slow speed, turns, etc.

 

Bummer.

 

I almost dropped my bike when trying to take it off the center stand by standing on the left side. Scary. Never did that again.

[KCSheila]

Thanks Will. I am keeping a positive attitude and hoping the Dr. is ready for me to get back out there soon. I do know I have to have a joint replaced at the base of my big toe and possibly another nerve or two removed, but am hoping this can wait until Fall or Winter. I don't believe that either has anything to do with my foot strength, just my comfort level. That would limit the length of my rides, but I have some brushing up to do on the slow speed skills before I even think of heading out again, again, thanks for your concern. If it hadn't happened so fast, I would have bailed, no doubt about it.

[Rusty1945]

We do everything to keep our bikes pristine and the thought of dropping our pride and joy is unthinkable. Having said that, it seems that the “zero speed drop” is a rather common occurrence.

 

It happened to me today.

Done it twice, both times with my now gone Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 Classic. One was a botched U-turn; I actually hit the curb with my floorboard as I missed completing the turn and went right over.

 

The first time I was backing out of a gravel road I had turned left into from a two lane country road. I was trying to turn around to go the other way - knew the road was too narrow for a U-turn. As I backed out and turned the bars to the left down the bike went. I felt it going and just stepped out of it. Now I had a down bike on a narrow country road with absolutely no one around. I heard a car coming and flagged it down before they ran into the bike. Turned out to be a bunch of teens and they helped me get the bike upright and even led me to my destination to be sure the bike and I made it.

 

About a week after I got my new RT I drove it into the garage as normal - I park it next to the left garage wall. Put the side stand down and started to lean the bike to the left . . . and more lean . . . and more lean . . . and whoa, the f___king stand IS NOT down. With adrenalin kicking in I was able to muscle the bike back to verticle. Whew! Now I ALWAYS look to be sure that side stand is really down.

[tobyzusa]

 

 

 

I almost dropped my bike when trying to take it off the center stand by standing on the left side. Scary. Never did that again.

 

I would never take the bike off the center stand without being on the left side. If you are on the right, you'd never know that that the side stand may have moved back from a fully deployed position as the bike rocked down off the center stand.....just my opinion of course....

[DouglasR]

In probably one of the most embarrassing moments of my life, I dropped my brand new 1150RT in the EXPERIENCED rider course during the quick stop exercise. During the hard stop the bars got slightly turned just as I came to a complete stop, and over I went. As others have said, it was like slow motion. I couldn't muscle the bike to keep it up. I wanted to melt in to the pavement.

 

Ha! My buddy Jeff has you beat on this one! He was the INSTRUCTOR in the ERC and was riding his Honda CBR900 (half the weight of an RT) through the course, grabbed a little too much front brake at the wrong time, and dumped it right in front of the other instructor and all the students. Now THAT'S embarassing!

 

We all do it. Get out of it's way, let it fall, pick it up, cuss a bunch, learn something, fix the busted stuff, go ride the darned thing some more. Rest comfortably in the knowledge that you will do it again, just be ready!

 

Doug

[Bud]

 

 

 

I almost dropped my bike when trying to take it off the center stand by standing on the left side. Scary. Never did that again.

 

I would never take the bike off the center stand without being on the left side. If you are on the right, you'd never know that that the side stand may have moved back from a fully deployed position as the bike rocked down off the center stand.....just my opinion of course....

 

Toby, the point I was trying to make that I no longer take it off the center stand from either side.

 

Just too much of a chance (for me) to end up with the bike down. When I sit on the seat while still on the center stand, I use my feet and a little body english to rock foraward. I'm 6'2" and can flat foot it when off the stand and almost with it on the stand.

[tobyzusa]

Got it, Bud.

[Eschelon1]

A phenomena by definition is something you know exists, but can't be explained.

 

I've friggin dropped my K75s in parking lots twice in 15 years on slow speed manuvers.

 

Nada with the 1150 RT so far, go figure...

 

[MCDenny]

You all would appreciate the fins on the Honda ST1100 and 1300. Dropped my ST1100 first day I had it in a gas station - result one tiny scratch on the side case.

 

My SOP with the RT on the side stand is to pull it backwards a couple of inches before dismounting - the scraping noise insures the stand is fully deployed. Haven't dropped it (yet).

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

You all would appreciate the fins on the Honda ST1100 and 1300. Dropped my ST1100 first day I had it in a gas station - result one tiny scratch on the side case.

 

If the 1100/1150 RT gets set down on its engine guard, damage is typically minimal. With about 100 miles on my RT, I tried to do a U-turn, forgetting that the bike was still in third gear. Engine stalled, and I just managed to lower it gently on its left side. No damage apparent.

 

Sometimes even if you don't exactly set it down, there's no damage. Spring '05, as I was putting it up on the centerstand at a gas station, the foot lever snapped and I literally threw the bike onto its right side. I though the damage would be awful, but there was nothing; the engine guard took the entire hit. Part of this was probably due to being on a dead-flat concrete pad at the gas station.

 

Some folks aren't so lucky; either they dump it on uneven pavement, or the roll momentum (as the bike falls over) makes the bike rock up off its wheels so that the mirror pod contacts the pavement. Bad deal, and I guess it's just the luck of the draw.

 

The other possibility, of course, is for the bike to hit something else on the way down. Torrey, spring '03, my parked RT (with no one near it) falls away from its sidestand. The bike immediately to its right is a few feet away, but close enough so that its footpeg catches the driving light mounted over my mirror, jamming it into my fairing. Cracked fairing, bent front subframe, cracked winscreen linkage frame, scratched windscreen, scratched mirror pod, blah blah blah... Damage totaled up to a few thousand dollars. Yikes. Thankfully the other guy's bike was undamaged.

 

Funny followup: the Torrey drop was in the morning, just before everyone was departing for the day's ride. Rather than wait two hours for the county sherriff to show up and take a report, I went riding. That evening, we called the sherriff, and he showed up around 9 PM. As he was taking the report, he asked what time it happened, and I said around 8:00. He started writing "PM," and I corrected him, saying it happened at 8 AM. "Why did you wait so long to report it?" he asked.

 

"I had to go ride."

[Survived-til-now]

Sadly, and as you are now aware, there is a very large membership of the zero drop club....

 

I find new riding boots is a sure precursor to a dropped bike, as is stopping so suddenly that you don't get your foot down in the right place, stopping whilst the bars are turned etc.....

 

I have a theory about turned bars. When the front wheel is straight all the weight is evenly balanced on each side of the central axis. As soon as you turn the bars the rake on the forks shunts the axis to one side and especially with a top heavy 1150RT its a matter of getting your foot down quickly and in the right place - and there is no point in doing that if the bike is still moving cos the bike will move on pass your optimal position. So if you are going to stop - firstly get the bars straight and secondly get you foot down as the bike stops and not before. I now give the brakes an extra squeeze as I am putting my foot down just to make sure the bleep-bleep bike really has finished moving.

 

As far as linked brakes are concerned they do make slow riding more difficult because the secret to success in slow riding is keep the revs up, slip the clutch and do the fine control on the back brake - but it can be done even on full lock with linked brakes.

 

Picking up the bike is another skill I have mastered but it basically involves getting the bar on the fallen side into the tank and grip the handle, firm grip with the other hand on the pannier rail but not the pillion seat, in close - back straight, knees bent and lift whilst cursing loudly but not so much that you overbalance and go over to the other side with the bike.

 

If it has fallen on the other side to the side stand then it really does pay to remember to put it out before the lift cos teetering over a bike trying to nudge it out once the bike is upright is fraught with danger (although i managed it on my 1200RT the other week (but that is another story).

 

By the way, cursing is absolutely essential whilst lifting the bike - unless you are a weight-lifter the chances are you will give yourself a hernia if you hold your breath - cursing loudly forces air out of your lungs and relaxes the diaphram preventing pressure on the internal organs. Tell the LEO that you were doing it on medical advice but try not to do it outside church on a Sunday.......

[Carnadero]

..and started to lean the bike to the left . . . and more lean . . . and more lean . . . and whoa, the f___king stand IS NOT down. With adrenalin kicking in I was able to muscle the bike back to verticle.

No such luck here. The one time I absent-mindedly got off without making sure the sidestand was deployed ended up being an expensive lesson. That I had just brought it home for the first time made the misery juuust a little bit worse.

 

That adrenaline thing does wonders tho, as I quickly picked up the fallen machine with no help, and without using the method outlined on the pinkribbonrides website.

[RFW]

Made the same mistake once. Hitting the front brake are walking speeds or less is a near-guarantee of sliding out. Especially in the rain or on gravelly surfaces. At such slow speeds there is no gyroscopic effect to keep your front wheel properly planted.

[Vrex]

Especially ugly when you thought the kick stand was down but it wasn’t and there are about 10 other riders watching as you and the bike hit the ground

 

I would rather do something like this in front of a bunch of other riders, who know how easy it is to do, than in front of a bunch of non-riders who probably think that all motorcyclists are stupid to begin with . . .

 

Lee

[Keith S]

No damage to me, except for my pride and pocket book.

 

Is there a ten step program for ZSP members?

 

My my cheeky daughter said that it should be the "3 step" program because there would be another ZSD before I got to ten.

[Keith S]

Thanks for all the comments folks, I just got back in town and I'm not sure how to get caught up with replies so I will move forward.

 

My first ZSD was with the ZX10. I had just bought the RT and was in the process of moving the ZX, I put it on the side stand and turned my back, BANG! down it went. That is when I learned to keep the bike in gear when using the side stand.

 

The other thing I have learned is to have riding boots with a hiking boot tread. This help to prevent the dreaded "foot sliding out" due to gravel or sand.

[elwoodpone]

After you have scraped/scuffed/rashed both sides of the bike it will never happen again. Trust me on this.

 

P.S. Repairing said damage voids aforementioned promise.

[ChrisM]

After you have scraped/scuffed/rashed both sides of the bike it will never happen again. Trust me on this.

 

P.S. Repairing said damage voids aforementioned promise.

 

Would that it were so. As the years go by, and the knees grow weaker from the missing cartilege and ligaments (ski accidents) and the inseam grows shorter, it gets easier and easier to step in a hole or trip.

[Keith S]

After you have scraped/scuffed/rashed both sides of the bike it will never happen again. Trust me on this.

 

P.S. Repairing said damage voids aforementioned promise.

 

Kind of like getting the first rock chip/crack in a new windshield, never seems to happen again until you replace it.

[Keith S]

After you have scraped/scuffed/rashed both sides of the bike it will never happen again. Trust me on this.

 

P.S. Repairing said damage voids aforementioned promise.

 

Would that it were so. As the years go by, and the knees grow weaker from the missing cartilege and ligaments (ski accidents) and the inseam grows shorter, it gets easier and easier to step in a hole or trip.

 

Chris

I got back into town on Friday and took the bike out for a ride. I have to admit that I was a tad tentative when it came to a slow stop. I've crashed bikes when I was a kid, even inserted a 350 under the rear end of a car and just shruged it off. The ride on Friday freaked me out a bit.

 

Keith

[GaryIF]

I've never dropped my RT but I've...

- Replaced both bar ends

- Refinished the right mirror housing twice

- Replaced the right mirror housing

- Replaced one system case cover

- Replaced the both engine guards twice

...because the danged pavement keeps leeping up and hitting the left or right side of the bike.

 

By the end of my first year owning an RT, I got to a point where I felt like I'd mastered the art of lifting it (backward walk) a bit too well. Live and learn ( and cry a bit along the way).