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A manometer convert?


redryder

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Since acquiring my 02 RT in 05, I have always done my own maintanence; including TB synchs. After listening to the well argued (on both sides) of the manometer/TwinMax debate, I decided to go with the TwinMax. Some of you may recall that my first TB synch was an utter and complete failure resulting in me fargin' my bike up so bad that it wouldn't even start. Ken H., a man with the patience of Job, helped me get it going again in just two easy days. (A side note for any of you about to do your first TB synch: the 1100 and the 1150 are NOT the same, and if you do a 0=0 on an 1150, you will spend a few nights howling at the moon and will be called a complete idiot by a few on this forum)

After Ken H.(did I mention that he was a saint????? grin.gif)got me going again I finished off a very meticulous TB synch with my brand new TwinMax. Since that time, I have had a wonderfully surge free 1150 single spark. Since I can't ride right now, I have taken the opportunity, with Red102's assistance, to give Artie a very thourough physical. With TwinMax in hand, I gave Artie another thourough synch. Taking him out for a much, much too short test ride, I found that the surging was back bncry.gifbncry.gifbncry.gif. Hooking up Red102's TwinMax, I found that mine is off by a significant margin. confused.gif Does anyone know of a way to recalibrate a TwinMax? It will zero out, and playing with the sensitivity knob does cause needle deflection, but the box appears to be off calibration now. So, it looks like a manometer is on the horizon.

 

Now for the manometer question. I know Ken and several others prefer water manometers. My nephew has a mercury manometer. I haven't used one myself, but I don't want something thats going to bounce around and fluctuate wildly from the vacuum surges. But at the same time, I don't want something that is going to be so viscous that it won't show the slight changes needed to make the surge go away. So, at the risk of getting a lengthy battle started, what do you good folks use in your manometers?? Water, oil, trasmission fluid, mercury, beer (no wait, that's what you put in YOU before the synch isn't it?)?

 

lurker.gif

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Not that I'm opposed to you building a manometer, but before you ditch the TwinMax are you sure it's an internal problem? Although the twinmaxes do have their quirks, such as the zero point changing when you change the sensitivity, I would not expect it to fail in two years. When you say yours was off by a significant margin, I assume that you:

 

1) set Red102's to the minimum sensitivity and zeroed it, then connected it and got a zero reading.

 

2) set yours to the minimum sensitivity and zeroed it, connected it and got a large imbalance indicated.

 

If so, did you try exchanging the hoses between yours and Red102's and see if the problem stayed "in the box" or moved with the hoses? A large error, which apparently appeared rapidly since it was surgeless on the last sync and way off this time, sounds a lot more like a leaking hose or connection than an electronic drift.

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My "fluid of choice" turned out to be Castrol two cycle pre-mix oil. Nice dark blue/green color and viscosity seems to be a good compromise. I tried 5/30 oil, automatic trans fluid, mineral oil(can't see)and 10/40 oil also.

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Shell two-stoke oil (2 cycle oil) - nice and red and a good viscosity. I damp the system by use of a slightly tight ty-wrap at the bottom centre of the loop.

 

Andy

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Not that I'm opposed to you building a manometer, but before you ditch the TwinMax are you sure it's an internal problem? Although the twinmaxes do have their quirks, such as the zero point changing when you change the sensitivity, I would not expect it to fail in two years. When you say yours was off by a significant margin, I assume that you:

 

1) set Red102's to the minimum sensitivity and zeroed it, then connected it and got a zero reading.

 

2) set yours to the minimum sensitivity and zeroed it, connected it and got a large imbalance indicated.

 

If so, did you try exchanging the hoses between yours and Red102's and see if the problem stayed "in the box" or moved with the hoses? A large error, which apparently appeared rapidly since it was surgeless on the last sync and way off this time, sounds a lot more like a leaking hose or connection than an electronic drift.

 

I set both TwimMaxs in the same way. Min sensitivity, then zero out. Increase sensitivity incrementally while rezeroing as I move toward max sensitivity. We checked both TMs for equall hose length, and condition of the hoses. Now to be fair, I misspoke as to how we came about finding the TM out of rig. I had already buttoned up my RT, and I wasn't in a mood to remove the Tupperware again (being cooped up since Thanksgiving with this crud I've got has made me loose my sense of humor). So when I observed Red102 do his synch on his RT we checked mine against his on his bike. His bike is running very well, much better than mine now, and his TM is showing zero deflection. When I hook up my TM to Reds bike, I get a deflection of nearly one unit to the left of zero. I reset the zero on both Red's unit as well as mine, and get the same error on my TM. When Red102 sets up both units, we still get the same deflection on my TM unit. All I know is that I used my TM to synch my bike, and now the dreaded surge has returned. Red102 used his new TM to synch his bike and it is running, in his words, "better than ever".

 

The only other thing I haven't changed is the battery. I got a new 9 volt out of the drawer, but it may have been there long enough to have gone down some. It does light the internal bulb, but I have heard that only a slightly discharged battery can cause problems. In that same vein, does anyone have a source for 12volt to 9 volt adapters? I wouldn't mind having an adapter that I can plug into Artie's accessory plug and hook up to the 9 volt plug on the TM.

 

In either case, thanks for the comments so far from all of you. I will recheck the hoses and adapter fittings again. When I get to where I can actually ride again, I'll take the Tupperware off and do another synch.

 

Until then, lurker.giflurker.giflurker.giflurker.gif

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A mercury manometer will not fluctuate wildly, because mercury has such a large mass.

 

If you have any problems with the fluid bouncing around, all you need is a restriction in the hose. The easiest way to do this is to get a bolt or screw thatis a tight fit in the plastic tubing, cut the head off it, and shove it into the vacuum tubing. Now the air must negotiate the long very thin passageways formed by the screw threads. This will nicely damp put any residual fluid movement.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
A mercury manometer will not fluctuate wildly, because mercury has such a large mass.

 

Depends on how much is in there. You could get much the same effect by using a water manometer with a total fluid column heigh about 13X as high as a mercury one (since Hg has about 13X the density of water).

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Put a new battery in it. I tried to sync my RS the other day and was surprised that the idle sync was off after I had checked it a week earlier using a friends TM. Then I noticed that the needle seemed to react slowly when I zeroed it. Replaced the battery (it had been used maybe 6 times in the last year - and was removed when not in use) and everything worked as it should.

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A manometer is a simple, reliable, and more accurate tool. A Twinmax is certainly more portable but unless portability is an important requirement I can't think of any other reason to use a Twinmax over a manometer.

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I used trans fluid, but did not have any restriction in line so the bouncing was pretty significant. I have no trouble at all with the TwinMax. It just boils down to what you like.

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To dampen the manometer fluid, you could 1.) buy and use a few more feet of tubing @ ~15 cents/ft., so as to hold more water, making for greater internal mass, and/or 2.) use a paper clip or kink in the line to restrict it, which would have the same practical effect as an internal restriction.

 

Rolled up into a ~3" diameter coil, surely this would be a smaller and lighter package than a TwinMax, don'tcha think? Damn sure cheaper!

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ShovelStrokeEd

I use mercury most of the time. I have about 5 manometers left over from various other jobs. I also use gauge oil, specifically designed for use in a manometer. The mercury will provide more than ample accuracy but has other drawbacks, toxicity and expense being the two chief ones. I am trained in its use and know the proper precautions to take in re storage and the like. The stuff is hard as Hades to get these days unless, like me, you work for a scientific instrument company that keeps it in stock.

 

A water manometer will make it easier to see small differences in pressure as the density of mercury is a little better than 13X that of water. ATF, or any other oils that are less dense than water will magnify the difference even more.

 

In my opinion, you don't really need that level of accuracy to obtain satisfactory results but, that is only my opinion.

 

All of my manometers have built in damping valves so, with a little practice, you can work the bounce out and still get adequate sensitivity. Another easy trick to increase sensitivity is to use the manometer at an angle rather than at the vertical. Not too hard to double sensitivity and you can easily get 4X that way.

 

If you haven't bought or made one yet, look up Dwyer Instruments. They sell a 36" slack tube manometer, with hoses, for around $30.00.

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I use water, but as much for what happens when some gets sucked in as any other reason. And sooner or later you will do something causing it to happen. (Not you specifically wink.gif) Which with water what happens is basically nothing more than a cough. I have very small orifice flow restrictors in mine to help with the dampening. And my U tube is significantly bigger ID than the tubing that connects to the TBs.

 

ATF is a good choice too and it does dampen. When it gets sucked in it creates a bunch of smoke and a dirty TB, which depending upon degree, you may have to clean out.

 

I deplore mercury, but as much as for the environmental hazard that it is as much as anything. Calling HAZMAT if you spill some and having your garage quarantined is not my idea of a good time. And heaven forbid if you suck some of that into an engine, vaporize it and blow it out the exhaust for you and the dog to breath.

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ShovelStrokeEd

Let me re-enforce Ken's comments on mercury. The stuff is mucho dangerous. You don't really want to be around it and, in particular, you don't want to be breathing the vapors or exposing members of your family to same. The long term effects of mercury exposure are really bad and not reversible. It only takes tiny amounts of the stuff around to

 

Why then, would I use it? Short answer is I have access and I'm used to the reactions that my manometer(s) give with it.

 

I prefer my Carb Stix as a tool and they are too short to use water. As I said earlier, I am trained in its use and know how to minimize exposure. I connect the hoses of my manometer to each other and thereby seal the system against emitting vapor, although this doesn't keep the vapor from being sucked into my motor when the system is in use. I keep the tightly sealed 1# plastic jar of the stuff in double zip lock plastic bags. Never handle it without wearing nitrile gloves and a breathing mask with special filters designed to adsorb mercury.

 

Sounds like a lot of trouble doesn't it? It is, go with water. Dwyer also sells a dye for water that has anti-fungal properties. Nice bright green and it fluoresces.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Dwyer also sells a dye for water that has anti-fungal properties. Nice bright green and it fluoresces.

 

Most people have a jug of antifreeze (propylene/ethylene glycol) somewhere in their garage. seems ideal, relatively non-toxic, with a density close to water and a nice bright color, and no anti-fungal dye to buy/mix. Any reason not to use it?

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Most people have a jug of antifreeze (propylene/ethylene glycol) somewhere in their garage. seems ideal, relatively non-toxic, with a density close to water and a nice bright color, and no anti-fungal dye to buy/mix. Any reason not to use it?
Not sure I agree with ethylene glycol being relatively non-toxic. It vaporized into exhaust doesn't seem like it would be that good of an idea either.
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Joe Frickin' Friday
Most people have a jug of antifreeze (propylene/ethylene glycol) somewhere in their garage. seems ideal, relatively non-toxic, with a density close to water and a nice bright color, and no anti-fungal dye to buy/mix. Any reason not to use it?
Not sure I agree with ethylene glycol being relatively non-toxic. It vaporized into exhaust doesn't seem like it would be that good of an idea either.

 

I guess I was thinking in comparison to mercury. It's generally a bad idea to breathe anything coming out of the exhaust pipe, but mercury is gonna be particularly bad; glycols (propylene and ethylene), when sucked into the engine, aren't going to be any worse than any oil.

 

Spills, if promptly cleaned up, shouldn't pose a problem, and don't require any exhorbitant personal protective equipment like mercury does.

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Dwyer also sells a dye for water that has anti-fungal properties. Nice bright green and it fluoresces.

 

Most people have a jug of antifreeze (propylene/ethylene glycol) somewhere in their garage. seems ideal, relatively non-toxic, with a density close to water and a nice bright color, and no anti-fungal dye to buy/mix. Any reason not to use it?

 

..and anti-freeze fluoresces. Just heard a spot on NPR about a doctor that published a paper about diagnosing people who drink it by shining a black light on their urine...

 

 

 

Now what was the question? eek.gif

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ShovelStrokeEd

I can't think of a good reason not to use it. Should do the job fine.

The glycols will mostly break down into CO2, CO and water with maybe a free hydrogen molecule floating around. Biggest danger is temperature decomposition into oxalic acid which is mildly toxic. A far greater danger to pets and small children as it tastes sweet so spills should be promptly cleaned up.

 

I have large quantities of the other stuff so use the dye with water. I also have more than one bike that is not a twin but still needs throttle body synch on an occasional basis so my Carb Stix still get some use.

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Gosh, you guys on this forum never cease to amaze me. I asked for your advice, and got it in spades...as usual. And the thing I like about this particualar post, is that all the advice/info is well educated and well thought out.

 

Let me explain/clear up one item. When I asked about a mercury manometer, I indeed was talking about a commercial CarbStix. I was under the (false?) impression that the mercury was already installed in the unit and I wouldn't have to handle it. Although, I hadn't thought about the vapor sucked off the unit. So, after listening to the wise counsel of those much wiser than I, I will forgo any type of mercury device.

 

As for antifreeze, I never actually thought of that. I have some "environmentally safe" RV antifreeze in the garage that I use for winterizing the ol' inboard boat motor. I like using that due to the decrease in pollutants when I stick the boat in the lake each spring. Even though I first flush out the engine with the Mickey Mouse ears and the garden hose prior to my first lake trip, I still don't like putting ethylene glycol into the water I want to ski, swim and fish in. As far as the fumes go, I'm not sure how toxic it is. When we deice the aircraft in bad weather we use an "engine running" deice program. While it certainly is true that the A/C packs are off and all the external outflow valves are closed, the ethylene glycol used to deice and the propylene glycol (I think that's what it is) used for antiicing is sprayed directly around the running engines being sucked through the intake and circulated through the bleed air system. When deicing is complete, we open the bleed air valves and restore the air condition/pressurization systems which, of course, now smell like not antifreeze. Could be that it's not harmful, but smelly. Could also be that it causes brain damage: maybe that's how the industry managed to leverage 50% of our pay out of us while our unions sat by idly. Who knows?

 

Enough of my soapbox...thank's for letting me rant.

 

Looks like I'll try the manometer and perhaps try a couple of different liquids. What would be wrong with using regular water with some food color in it? Then when finished with the manometer, toss it out and replace with fresh water each time it's used? Also thinking about the same procedure with RV antifreeze.

 

Thanks again for all the well thought out commentary on this post. You folks really give me a lot of outstanding advice/support. This is truly a great forum for those like me trying to catch up on my R bike skills. Thanks to this forum, I have learned to do valve adjusts, TB synch (with the TwinMax), servo brake bleeds, and really everything I need to know to perform my own periodic service and annual inspections. Soon I'll be ordering the spline lube video and mentally prepare myself for that task next winter. That's the one I'm really dreading.

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That's the one I'm really dreading.

With Ted's excellent DVD and a methodical approach it is not too dificult. My biggest tip is to get a digital camera and take too many photographs - especially of cable loom positions and connectors. You will still not have the perfect picture but the rebuild will be so much easier with them.

 

Andy

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Red, a couple of observations as I read this thread. First, you can get equal results from a manometer or a twinmax. They are both vacuum deferential devices and the key is how they are used.

 

First, test either unit with a vacuum "T" to make sure you don't have any leaks. A leaky hose will cause tons of problems with the sync. If the mano columns are even, or the twinmax doesn't vary, you are ready to go.

 

Second, I'm not a big fan of carb sticks. I first started using a Morgan Carbtune and never got a very good sync. After testing with a "T", I found that even with no leakes, the columns were unequal.

 

Finally, leaks in the intake system, throttle cable problems or incorrectly set valves will make all of your efforts finding a sync worthless. Start with the basics of testing your measuring device, and making sure things are right with the bike.

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Since acquiring my 02 RT in 05, I have always done my own maintanence; including TB synchs. After listening to the well argued (on both sides) of the manometer/TwinMax debate, I decided to go with the TwinMax. Some of you may recall that my first TB synch was an utter and complete failure resulting in me fargin' my bike up so bad that it wouldn't even start. Ken H., a man with the patience of Job, helped me get it going again in just two easy days. (A side note for any of you about to do your first TB synch: the 1100 and the 1150 are NOT the same, and if you do a 0=0 on an 1150, you will spend a few nights howling at the moon and will be called a complete idiot by a few on this forum)

After Ken H.(did I mention that he was a saint????? grin.gif)got me going again I finished off a very meticulous TB synch with my brand new TwinMax. Since that time, I have had a wonderfully surge free 1150 single spark. Since I can't ride right now, I have taken the opportunity, with Red102's assistance, to give Artie a very thourough physical. With TwinMax in hand, I gave Artie another thourough synch. Taking him out for a much, much too short test ride, I found that the surging was back bncry.gifbncry.gifbncry.gif. Hooking up Red102's TwinMax, I found that mine is off by a significant margin. confused.gif Does anyone know of a way to recalibrate a TwinMax? It will zero out, and playing with the sensitivity knob does cause needle deflection, but the box appears to be off calibration now. So, it looks like a manometer is on the horizon.

 

Now for the manometer question. I know Ken and several others prefer water manometers. My nephew has a mercury manometer. I haven't used one myself, but I don't want something thats going to bounce around and fluctuate wildly from the vacuum surges. But at the same time, I don't want something that is going to be so viscous that it won't show the slight changes needed to make the surge go away. So, at the risk of getting a lengthy battle started, what do you good folks use in your manometers?? Water, oil, trasmission fluid, mercury, beer (no wait, that's what you put in YOU before the synch isn't it?)?

 

lurker.gif

 

Redrider, having owned many multi cylinder/multi carb motorcycles over the last 45 years or so I have used about every type of manometer, carb stix, vacuum gauge, etc to balance carbs.. I have even used engine RPM per working cylinder to balance “power per cylinder” output..

 

In my opinion, about all the different types of carb balancing systems have their advantages/disadvantages on different engine types & cylinder configurations..

 

If you are working on a 2 cylinder engine that have both pistons coming to top dead center at the same time (BMW Boxer) then you sure can’t beat a simple U tube delta type manometer (water works just fine).. Because of the matched vacuum pulses of the boxer engine with both pistons coming to TDC at the same time you can get very accurate results from a simple U tube delta type set-up.. You can use mercury stix or vacuum gauges & balance against atmospheric pressure but that does not have as fine of a resolution as a delta type U tube.. A couple of inches of water differential on a delta type U tube won’t even show up on a mercury gauge set up balancing against atmospheric pressure..

 

 

 

Now if you are working on a multi cylinder engine with some pistons up & some down at the same time (like a Honda GoldWing) then you can’t use a simple U tube as the vacuum pulses are opposed & will really skew the balance of a delta type U tube.. On those types of engines you really need to use dampened vacuum gauges or 4 independent mercury tubes & balance all 4 cylinder against the same atmospheric pressure..

 

On the 3 cylinder engines, using a balance against atmospheric pressure is a must & the only way to get a decent balance.. 180° twins also pose a problem for U tube manometers as the vacuum pulses are not opposed & will not impose proper phased pulses on the water column to get a decent balance..

 

On most older type motorcycles I much prefer using a cylinder power balance as that balances the actual power produced on one cylinder against another not just the manifold vacuum in the intake manifold..

 

If you have problems dampening the vacuum pulses on a home made U tube manometer try using a cigarette filter pushed into each vacuum line (seems to work out very good).. Or go to your local pet store & buy a package of plastic air bubbler valves (about $3.95 or so) then you can adjust the vacuum restriction to fully dampen the pulses to get a very stable water column..

 

Twisty

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