Hough vs. Parks ? (vs. "Ride Smart"?)

[Woodie]

So, I've been doing my after-Christmas reading:

Hough - Proficient Motorcycling and More Proficient Motorcycling

Parks - Total Control

 

In all that reading, I managed to find ONE (1) spot where these two have a difference of opinion:

 

Hough, MPM, page 173, 2nd paragraph:

"...before the turn exit, shift your weight back towards the center..."

 

Parks: (Page unknown, since I didn't bring it with me to work)

Keep your body position off-center until you've brought the bike back upright, then center your body.

 

What say the "Ride Smart" veterans?

 

So, who's "right", and why? What's YOUR experience? (track and street opinions both welcome)

[Paul Mihalka]

Just my opinionated opinion, but I would go with Parks. I can't see moving my body around a lot while still leaned over in the middle of the turn.

[David]

Paul is right. You worry about the front before the apex and the rear afterwards (in simplistic terms), and you're most likely to lose the rear under heavy acceleration out of a turn, which means that the bike should be as upright as possible.

[Woodie]

Perhaps I should have quoted a bit more, (in fairness to Dave H.)

"Two or three seconds before the turn exit, shift your weight..."

 

He's clearly talking about after the apex, as you're getting on the gas, and preparing to straighten up. I think both authors are clear that you should seperate the two chassis-affecting motions (shift body weight, straighten bike).

 

I wonder if it's the race-track importance of earlier acceleration coming out of the turn that has Parks say to get the bike upright first? (presuming that if the bike is upright you can give it more gas)

[russell_bynum]

I wonder if it's the race-track importance of earlier acceleration coming out of the turn that has Parks say to get the bike upright first? (presuming that if the bike is upright you can give it more gas)

 

If the bike is more upright, the suspension is working better, and you have more traction.

 

At the track, you can use that to accelerate more. On the street, you can use it to not crash.

 

I agree with David and Paul. Where ever you put your weight before you started the turn, leave it there until you're done with the turn.

[RFW]

Hough makes no sense in this case as it is written. I think what he may mean is to move your weight back slowly at AS YOU ARE COMING BACK UPRIGHT ...all in one fluid motion. Shifting your weight back while still hard over, just BEFORE you start coming back upright, can cause you to loose traction and spin out.

[pmdave]

Let's note that Parks has a background in racing, while Hough has a background in riding public roads. Yes, whatever you do on the bike, it's important to do it smoothly to avoid upsetting traction.

 

The advice to shift weight back toward center (and yes, it should be to smoothly shift,) is because the line toward the exit on public roads is practically a straight line.

 

Having said that, I would also suggest that left turns on public roads require a different technique than right turns due to the camber. Public roads often have more camber toward the ditches than racetracks. The exit from a left turn might have you well over to the right side, on the steeper off-camber. If that's the case, and you're hanging off, keep the bike leaned so the wheels are more perpendicular to the road surface.

 

Likewise, if a right-hand curve is off camber (slants left) hang off as needed to keep the wheels more perpendicular to the surface until it levels out. That's a lot more important in low-traction situations such as oily wet pavement.

 

Let's note that hanging off is more than just conserving leanover clearance and traction. Leaning the bike also relates to steering feedback. If you need to maintain a strong push or pull on the grips, that means you're demanding more front tire traction be consumed for steering/balancing. If shifting weight reduces steering effort, that also results in more traction available for side loads such as cornering.

 

pmdave

[Ken H.]

The last place you want to be shifting your weight is while leaned over (assuming non-emergency riding and such). Even if it is after the apex. The goal is to get the bike upright as quick as possible so as to maximize its available traction as much as possible as you accelerate toward the exit. Indeed, keeping the bike more upright is the whole point of putting yourself inside to start with. Then as the bike gets ‘squares away’ so to speak, follow it with bringing yourself out of the lean.

 

Of course in real life it is all one fluid motion, but the approach, which has priority is important.

 

We need to be more cognizant of the fact that leaning a motorcycle is actually a bad thing. A necessary thing, but never-the-less one to be minimized as much as possible. Keeping your body inside the maximum time possible contributes to that goal.

 

I think Mr. Hough pops in here from time to time, hopefully he will weigh in on his thinking on this!

[Jake]

I don't have the benefit of the context, but I bet Hough isn't referring to hanging off - more likely shifting weight leading with the upper torso. JMHO.

[pmdave]

You lose. Hough is indeed talking about hanging off--as in shifting the butt as well as the shoulders.

 

However, let's note that while riding on public roads, for those interested in surviving the ride, speed is limited mostly by the view ahead rather than by available traction. In other words, it isn't necessary to hang off to maintain leanover clearance, but hanging off may result in more favorable steering feedback.

 

pmdave

[Limecreek]

I am not a ride smart graduate, but....I'd recommend moving the bike up out of the turn and then moving your body back to center. Do not try to make two distinct movements, but one seamless one as you exit the turn.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

The only place I could think of that I might want to shift my weight while on the line from the apex to the exit point is if there is a linked opposite direction corner immediately following. Certainly not if there is any straight road at all. A tight "S" turn will almost demand that you do so, moving your torso back over the centerline of the bike as the bike approaches upright and then knocking your outside knee off the tank with the soon to be outside knee as you transition into the turn-in for the upcoming curve.

 

Thankfully, at sensible street riding speeds, that situation doesn't often present itself. It does show up at almost any race track and it is certainly useful to learn how to do it smoothly so as not to upset the bike. Makes my quads hurt just thinking about it.

[Jake]

You lose. Hough is indeed talking about hanging off--as in shifting the butt as well as the shoulders.

 

You sneak. You're doing that referring to oneself in the third person thing, arentchya???

[pmdave]

Shhhhh.

 

pmdave

[Ken H.]

I don't have the benefit of the context, but I bet Hough isn't referring to hanging off - more likely shifting weight leading with the upper torso. JMHO.

In Ride Smart we're not talking about true hanging off either. Rather moving (mostly) upper body mass inside and foreword. "Kiss the mirror" is the term used.

[Misti]

Perhaps I should have quoted a bit more, (in fairness to Dave H.)

"Two or three seconds before the turn exit, shift your weight..."

 

He's clearly talking about after the apex, as you're getting on the gas, and preparing to straighten up.

 

I have two questions in regards to this topic. 1. What is the reasoning behind his suggestion to shift the weight back to the middle of the bike before the turn exit? To me that seems like added and unnecessary movement while the bike is leaned over, and 2. You mention getting on the gas after the apex....do you alway want to wait till after the apex to get on the gas? What would happen if you got on the gas earlier in the corner?

 

Misti

[Shaun]

The suggestions about minimum extra efforts and smooth movements are taken to heart (and for practice). I transition out of a curve with conscious weight shift and unconscious counter-steering so I’ve got to side with Hough. Getting the bike upright against body weight (unless I misread) seems an unnaturally awkward and ill-timed effort to me.

 

I think both authors are clear that you should seperate the two chassis-affecting motions (shift body weight, straighten bike).

Well then, I guess I can't agree with either. Shows that there's lots of room for improvement in 2007.

[Woodie]

Thanks to all for the inputs...this is turning out to be a very interesting discussion.

 

I personally have had trouble with this: I always want to center my body (shift my weight back to center), before I straighten the bike up completely. While the motions are quite fluid (and smooth of course!), I am still aware of the two distinct motions. I suspect it's because I don't get to see enough twisty roads, so *want* to spend more time leaned over!

 

I think I'm leaning towards the "both methods are acceptable and have their place". Street vs. racetrack?

[Ken H.]

I always want to center my body (shift my weight back to center), before I straighten the bike up completely. While the motions are quite fluid (and smooth of course!), I am still aware of the two distinct motions. I suspect it's because I don't get to see enough twisty roads, so *want* to spend more time leaned over!

 

I think I'm leaning toward the "both methods are acceptable and have their place". Street vs. racetrack?

While agreed, leaned over is fun, low siding isn't! What the idea of keeping the bike more upright, and getting it back upright soonest, is all about is maximizing traction. It's a safety concept in-as-much-as a 'fun' concept. If your body comes upright before the bike, you are in effect increasing the lateral vectors the bike's tires have to overcome to maintain lateral traction. And just after the apex as you increase your acceleration rate toward the exit is just the time when you want to be increasing the available traction for acceleration, not decreasing it.

 

There's another factor too that to me makes the idea of straightening yourself up first a poor idea. And that is chassis dynamics and suspension loading. Moving your weight during the apex to exit part of a curve changes the current loading of the suspension which will effect the dynamic configuration of the bike at the moment. Likely negatively. Which also can lead to a lateral break in tire traction. And a low side if it doesn't hook back up, or worse, a high side if it does.

[Ken H.]

I have two questions in regards to this topic. 1. What is the reasoning behind his suggestion to shift the weight back to the middle of the bike before the turn exit? To me that seems like added and unnecessary movement while the bike is leaned over, and 2. You mention getting on the gas after the apex....do you alway want to wait till after the apex to get on the gas? What would happen if you got on the gas earlier in the corner?

1. Agreed. A lot of us hear a puzzled by that too. It would be interesting to here Mr. Hough's thoughts.

 

2. In an ideal corner / world, you are always accelerating through the entire corner once the tip in has happened, it at least somewhat. It's just after the apex and the bike is beginning and continuing to come back more upright (and getting that done sooner is kind of the point some of us are making) that you can then increase your rate of acceleration, often dramatically, as you head for the exit. Again, because the maximum lean needed to make the corner is past, bike is more upright and more traction is becoming available. It's the old - slow in, fast out mantra.

 

In the real world of street sport riding unknowns may force us to keep the throttle only neutral though a corner, or even decelerating if the unexpected condition warrants it. Then we can only wait until the apex is completed to begin accelerating. But often this situation a undesirable byproduct of being to hot for conditions going into the corner in the first place.

 

I often see people riding on what I call, the "grace of their tires." Modern day tires and bike suspensions are so good, that they will compensate for a lot of bad riding habits of the person sitting on top of them. Habits that 30 years ago would have done them in.

[Woodie]

1. Agreed. It would be interesting to here Mr. Hough's thoughts.

Read the thread...it's here.

 

2. In an ideal corner / world, you are always accelerating through the entire corner once the tip in has happened, it at least somewhat. It's just after the apex and the bike is beginning and continuing to come back more upright (and getting that done sooner is kind of the point some of us are making) that you can then increase your rate of acceleration, often dramatically, as you head for the exit.

First part: agreed. Last line-The response is there: for STREET riding, increasing acceleration is not that important--having options/control is. Limiting factor to acceleration at this end-stage of the turn is far more likely to be sight-line.

 

I often see people riding on what I call, the "grace of their tires." Modern day tires and bike suspensions are so good, that they will compensate for a lot of bad riding habits of the person sitting on top of them. Habits that 30 years ago would have done them in.

 

Have you seen me ride???

 

I usually attribute my survival to angels who protect idiots (and drunks)!

[pmdave]

I'm very pleased to see discussions such as this. I am baffled that so many riders pay no attention to skills. Perhaps this is due to so much "training" by the mainstream motorcycle magazines that motorcycling is all about knee-dragging, wheelie/stoppie bravado, and "if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch."

 

Eventually, most of us realize that motorcycling is primarily a mental activity, and secondarily a matter of the "dance".

 

In terms of cornering, hanging off, body steering, et al., I've also learned that there is often more than one way to "skin the cat."* Of course, it's necessary to get some basic skills between your ears, but then you need to modify your tactics based on the situation. What's the feedback from the bike telling me? Does the limited view mean I should limit my speed? Should I change my line to avoid an oil slick? If I'm able to manage traction better and corner faster, will that increase or decrease my risks? Is Hough right, or is Parks, or Code, or Pridmore? Or, could it be that all the various authors have good suggestions and are correct for different situations?

 

*referring not to pets, but rather to the different techniques for driving a bulldozer.

 

What are your riding priorities? Speed, or controlling risk? How many years do you intend to ride? Is it more important to arrive home in one piece to support your family, or is it more important to have a thrilling ride?

 

I'm suggesting that there is no single "correct" answer to the questions, but rather a number of possible answers, and ultimately you've got to be the "expert". That's what's so great about this discussion.

 

pmdave

[russell_bynum]

I have two questions in regards to this topic. 1. What is the reasoning behind his suggestion to shift the weight back to the middle of the bike before the turn exit? To me that seems like added and unnecessary movement while the bike is leaned over, and 2. You mention getting on the gas after the apex....do you alway want to wait till after the apex to get on the gas? What would happen if you got on the gas earlier in the corner?

 

Misti

 

1. I agree that you shouldn't be moving around other than dropping your upper body down a bit to tighten the corner.

 

2. The main reason you want to get on the gas las late as possible, is when you're on the gas, the bike is more stable. Things that are stable aren't nearly as much fun as things that are unstable, so I like to hold the throttle as long as possible. Sometimes I roll in and out of the throttle multiple times per corner just to add some extra excitement and drama.

 

[Woodie]

Well, it was a nice enough day (not raining), and I had an excuse to go out, so I took the bike out, and tried what we've been talking about here.

 

First, I have to retract a bit I said earlier. It's MUCH easier (for me) to bring the bike upright after a turn, and then continue the motion, bringing my body to the fully upright. I tried several times doing it the other way (bringing the body up, and then continuing the motion bringing the bike up), and it was difficult.

 

Things that I noticed: If I tried to move my body first, I'm know I was putting more pressure on the inside bar as I was moving my body. I couldn't tell if that actually increased the lean angle of the bike, or was merely artifact of moving my body.

 

I did not do any extreme acceleration sort of thing, as this was on public ways. The roads I had available don't provide much in the way of curves, so I wasn't really able to get to "extreme" lean angles by any stretch. I did move both whole body (1/2 butt hanging off) and RideSmart (upper body, kiss the mirrors).

 

pmdave's comments about road camber were on the money. Focus on minimizing the lean angle, using your body is a very effective way to do this. I did hit a couple off-camber curves, and I found that I was far more comfortable keeping my body well off, and letting the tires get vertical first. The steering and control felt more comfortable/controlled.

 

Example: The last turn before I got home is a right hand, blind turn, pretty much level. I set up the turn at a reasonable speed, set up left side of the lane, aiming for that late apex. After the real, and then "imaginary" apex, as I was bringing up my body first, I found water/sand running across the road (maybe 12"). I immediately straightened up, so as to hit the "hazard" with vertical tires, and found myself cross-controlling to get myself back onto my side of the line. (Sight line was good at the time this all happened, so I knew there was no oncoming traffic.)

 

I think that if I had been still hanging off, it would have been easier/faster to bring the tires vertical (smaller angle to close), and then push right back down again to complete the turn on my own side of the road.

 

I couldn't tell if my line of sight was impacted by raising bike first or body first. I think lane positioning has much more impact on that.

 

russell: You're just wrong!

[russell_bynum]

russell: You're just wrong!

 

[Couchrocket]

Well, hello David, and welcome to the DB here!

 

You'll find your writings properly honored here, and often recommended to newbies returning to the riding fold.

 

Folk, we're a little slow on the uptake here on this one... Welcome Mr. Hough, y'all!

[russell_bynum]

Well, hello David, and welcome to the DB here!

 

You'll find your writings properly honored here, and often recommended to newbies returning to the riding fold.

 

Folk, we're a little slow on the uptake here on this one... Welcome Mr. Hough, y'all!

 

Hot diggity! Good catch, Scott.

 

Welcome, pmdave! My copy of Proficient Motorcycling has been read and passed around so many times, it is about to fall apart.

 

Edit: Looks like Jake connected the dots first, but the rest of us were too dense to figure it out.

[fisherman]

Welcome Mr. Hough. It's great to have you around. Your books are on my nightstand and there is good information in them for every level of rider. Thanks so much for your contributions to our sport.

 

Gil Horsley

[Mike]

Shhhhh.

 

pmdave

 

Dear Dav . . . uh, pmdave . . . we hope you'll stick around here, or at least check in from time to time. You'll find that many of our members started off with your Epic.

 

We are, generally speaking, an ill-tempered and hoonish lot, given to excessive speed and intemperate riding. We could use your help.

[Woodie]

Folk, we're a little slow on the uptake here on this one... Welcome Mr. Hough, y'all!

 

 

OK, ok. I admit it: I emailed him and asked him to take a look at our little thread, so I *knew* who it was!

[Woodie]

2. You mention getting on the gas after the apex....do you alway want to wait till after the apex to get on the gas?

Misti

 

Nobody *really* responded to you, so let me take a stab at it. Earlier in PM, the entry speed is defined as the speed at which you enter the turn, such that you can have a slightly positive (increasing) throttle throughout the turn. In effect, you're "on the gas" throughout the turn, although you add more gas as you exit the turn, and accelerate out into the straight-away. Note: This is not a "neutral" throttle, you want the chassis to have some acceleration force being applied, as this helps to stabilize the chassis.

 

A side note: A friend of mine had to the physics proof in college, that showed that the traction is maximized in a turn, when the acceleration is very small, but positive.

 

"more gas" assists the motorcycle in returning to the vertical, as well as the usual fun!

[pmdave]

I apologize for not being transparent. People sometimes tend to hold back when they recognize someone with a reputation.

 

I'll try to "drop by" from time to time. Although I'm supposed to be "retired", I seem to keep busy writing, and some of my latest projects are sucking up a lot of time. Woodie can always pull my chain for hot topics.

 

Here's another thought about cornering: rubber tires have a slip angle. That is, when the vehicle is cornering, the flexible rubber allows the tire to slip toward the outside of the turn.

 

Applying additional force to the tire tends to increase the slip angle. (whether steering, braking or gassing) Rolling on the throttle tends to cause the rear tire to increase slip angle.

 

Wide oval tires shift the contact ring more toward the turn (and away from the bike centerline) That means that engine thrust on the rear tire is off center. Reducing or increasing throttle tends to cause the bike to yaw.

 

OK, put that together with this little tidbit: maximum traction is when the tire is at about 90% slip.

 

What do you think?

 

pmdave

[SteveB]

 

Edit: Looks like Jake connected the dots first, but the rest of us were too dense to figure it out.

 

No, we were just waiting on you to really put your foot in your mouth!

[russell_bynum]

 

Edit: Looks like Jake connected the dots first, but the rest of us were too dense to figure it out.

 

No, we were just waiting on you to really put your foot in your mouth!

 

LOL! Usually doesn't take very long, does it?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Wheeeeeeee.

 

I get to contradict David Hough.

 

 

OK, put that together with this little tidbit: maximum traction is when the tire is at about 90% slip.

 

I think he meant 10% slip. Something drag racers and tire engineers have known for years. You want to leave just a haze of rubber on the pavement.

 

It applies to all forms of acceleration, braking, straight line or lateral. The last being the hardest to master and also somewhere you shouldn't be going on the street.

[tallman]

Will brake for slipped angels.

[pmdave]

My bad. You're correct, according to my source, Tony Foale " Motorcycle handling and chassis design .

 

Foal: "...for braking and accelerating, tests show that we get the maximum amount of grip when the tyre is slipping by between about 10 and 20%. That means that under acceleration the surface velocity of the tyre will be 10% -20% higher than the forward speed of the bike..."

 

Better halfheimers than allzheimers, I suppose.

 

pmdave

[CT_Rider]

I suspect it's because I don't get to see enough twisty roads, so *want* to spend more time leaned over!

Well take a short ride down my way to Route 146 between Guilford and Branford and "twistie" 'til you can "twistie" no more!

[lawnchairboy]

welcome!!!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

BTW, David, I was remiss in not welcoming you first before contradicting/correcting you. You are by no means the first.

 

Do, please, hang out here and contribute as the mood takes you. There are a number of luminaries floating around here already. I wouldn't worry overmuch about this gang being reticent. Nobody gets very much respect, although we are more cordial about it than most places in cyberworld. Think of it as a place you can come to discuss topics of mutual interest with old friends, most of whom you have never met.

 

Having read your book, I would have to say, your input will be greatly appreciated here.

[tallman]

Who are you?

And, what have you done with ED?

 

Welcome Mr. Hough

Love the books.

[pmdave]

I'm in the process of generating another article in a series about the US motorcycle fatality increases. Since that's on my mind at the moment, I think I'll start a new string about it. I welcome your input.

 

pmdave

[russell_bynum]

Dave, You said:

 

The advice to shift weight back toward center (and yes, it should be to smoothly shift,) is because the line toward the exit on public roads is practically a straight line.

 

 

I'm probably just being dense, but I still don't understand. You "hang off" (to whatever degree you do that, whether it is a full race position, dropping a cheek off the seat, or doing the "kiss the mirrors thing...they all accomplish the same thing to different degrees) to minimize lean angle, and therefore maximize traction. If you stop hanging off (i.e. "Shift weight back toward center"), while the bike is still leaned, you will be increasing lean angle...and therefore decreasing available traction.

 

Now...if you're saying that the line from the apex to the exit is straight, then the bike isn't leaned/turning at that point, and it makes perfect sense to get back in the middle of the bike. The turn is effectively over as soon as you pass the apex (assuming you're taking a late apex and squaring the turn off), so naturally there's no reason to have the bike still leaned over, and there's no reason to hang off. Is that what you're talking about?

 

 

On more thing...

 

You said:

Having said that, I would also suggest that left turns on public roads require a different technique than right turns due to the camber. Public roads often have more camber toward the ditches than racetracks. The exit from a left turn might have you well over to the right side, on the steeper off-camber. If that's the case, and you're hanging off, keep the bike leaned so the wheels are more perpendicular to the road surface.

 

Likewise, if a right-hand curve is off camber (slants left) hang off as needed to keep the wheels more perpendicular to the surface until it levels out. That's a lot more important in low-traction situations such as oily wet pavement.

 

I understand keeping your weight inside (hanging off) to keep the bike vertical during right turns. I'm confused about what you said for left turns You said "Keep the bike leaned, so the wheels are more perpendicular to the road surface." If the bike's leaned, the wheels aren't perpendicular to the road surface. Can you clarify?

[pmdave]

Shifting your weight laterally on the bike does more than maintain leanover clearance and preserve traction. Because of the change in the location of the contract rings on the tires, hanging off (or counterleaning) has an effect on steering feedback. Smoother, easier steering happens to conserve traction, so there is a point to adjusting body position based on feedback rather than just on leanover clearance.

 

If following a delayed apex line, the tightest part of the turn will be at the initial turn-in. As you pass the delayed apex, the bike will be on a much straighter line toward the exit. The exit might not be exactly a straight line, but it's "straighter" than near the apex. IOW, the radius of turn will be increasing, so the bike can be lifted up as the side loads dissipate. This happens to work well with the gradual throttle roll-on continuously from the lean-in point. Whether you ease your weight back to center while lifting the bike up, earlier, or later, is up to you, based on circumstances.

 

My suggestion about "wheels perpendicular to surface" is because in low traction situations, if you lose traction, the bike is more likely to slide sideways than suddenly snap roll into a fall-down. Obviously, the bike needs to be leaned to counteract centrifugal force. I'm suggesting that part of the traction equation concerns the camber of the surface. In a left turn, the surface typically slants off to the right, sometimes steeply. If you need to use that part of the pavement, there is some advantage in hanging off farther, not to get the bike vertical, but to get the wheels as perpendicular to the surface as possible while still maintaining your line.

 

In a positively banked turn, the bike might be perpendicular to the surface even when leaned over to the appropriate angle, and without the rider needing to shift weight in the saddle. (Think Daytona banking compared to a level chicane.)

 

pmdave

[russell_bynum]

Good stuff.

Because of the change in the location of the contract rings on the tires, hanging off (or counterleaning) has an effect on steering feedback

 

Yep...absolutely.

 

The exit might not be exactly a straight line, but it's "straighter" than near the apex. IOW, the radius of turn will be increasing, so the bike can be lifted up as the side loads dissipate. This happens to work well with the gradual throttle roll-on continuously from the lean-in point. Whether you ease your weight back to center while lifting the bike up, earlier, or later, is up to you, based on circumstances.

 

OK, gotcha. I agree.

 

If you need to use that part of the pavement, there is some advantage in hanging off farther, not to get the bike vertical, but to get the wheels as perpendicular to the surface as possible while still maintaining your line.

 

I think I see what you're saying, thanks!

 

Here's an interesting question...We often talk about getting the bike upright to "Maximize the contact patch". IOW, the contact patch gets bigger when the bike is more upright. Someone (I think it might have been Keith Code, but I don't recall.) suggested that the contact patch actually gets BIGGER as you lean the bike over due to the shape of the tire. (The exception would be when the contact patch reaches the edge of the tire and you continue leaning father.) And the real reason we want to get the bike veritical is because the suspension is designed to work with the force of the bumps, dips, etc going directly up/down the fork legs/shock shaft rather than having some vector of that force be "wasted" pushing on the side of the forks/shock if the bike was leaned.

 

If that is the case, then is it more important to have the tires perpendicular to the road surface, or to have the suspension vertical?

[David]

The other insteresting thing I'd add to the discussion is this: increasingly, tires are stickier on the side than in the center.

 

Still, suspension compliance is the most important factor in putting power and braking to the ground, so I'm voting for upright.

[russell_bynum]

The other insteresting thing I'd add to the discussion is this: increasingly, tires are stickier on the side than in the center.

 

Good point! Multiple-compound tires have made the transition from MotoGP high-tech wizardry to something that Joe Blow can buy for a couple hundred bucks for his FJR. (BTW, if there was ever an argument in favor of racing as an R&D platform for streetbikes, Tires would be a huge factor.)

 

But...I doubt the extra stick overcomes the extra force trying to make it slide. IOW, Tires with stickier sides than centers aren't less likely to slide while leaned than when they're straight up and down, but they are less likely to slide while leaned than tires with a single compound througout.

 

Note: That statement is not based on any knowledge of facts...just a hunch.

[David]

Note: That statement is not based on any knowledge of facts...just a hunch.

 

No need to state this. We assume this with all your statements.

[russell_bynum]

Note: That statement is not based on any knowledge of facts...just a hunch.

 

No need to state this. We assume this with all your statements.

 

[Woodie]

No need to state this. We assume this with all your statements.

 

 

Not just LOL!

 

Oh...what a civilized place we have here at MRN!