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Stoppie!


Puddick

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First BM and I love it (2006 RT), but does anyone else feel the back wheel seems to lift too easily under braking. Coming around a bend this morning, not too fast, and found a Car stopped, the road was damp so not to hard on the front brake, firm pressure to the back and I could feel the back end coming around, then the ABS started. longish skiiiidddd, quick release, skiiidddd, release, it felt quite agricultural, I also thought I was going into the arse end of the Car, so gave the front brake more heave-ho, very squirrelly all in all. The ABS on the Wing was better than this.

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Since the brakes are partially linked you are never using just the front brakes. I don't know if using the rear pedal increases the amount rear braking you get from just using the lever.

 

I've never felt the rear get light on me even under hard use, no full-on panic stops yet.

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Before I got my RT, I had an older (1984) Goldwing with linked brakes. It was a big change because the Goldwing had linked brakes operated by the foot pedal and the RT has linked brakes operated by the hand lever! eek.gif Did your newer ABS Goldwing have linked braking operated by the foot pedal?

 

On the Goldwing, I got used to stepping down on the pedal and getting good braking on both wheels. On the RT, I have gotten use to squeezing the hand lever and getting good braking on both wheels. Now I use the foot pedal very little.

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I can't say that I have noticed any problems with the brakes. I have had to brake pretty hard on occassion and the bike never felt squirrley to me. I had a Honda VFR with linked brakes and ABS and the BMW systems seems as good if not better to me.

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I turn the ignition off while I'm still rolling. The reason I do this from time to time is so I'm used to how the braking feels without servo assist. On the new bikes it's actually quite good. I had a 2002 R1150RS and it was terrible without servo assist.

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It's not so much that the ABS sucks, it's the link system that sucks too.

 

I dissabled my ABS within the first week of ownership. This topic had been beaten to death....some say they love it and it's saved their butt. The other complaint is the servo system sucks too. Why...not enought feel and not enough feedback to the rider of what's REALLY happening.

 

The real issue is, there are riders who do not have the experience to feel and control braking inputs as they are applied as needed for the situation. To this I say bravo to BMW to simulate control for them.

 

For those who have backlogged years of experience on race tracks, do not want a motorcycle to react with it's OWN sense of feel. The BMW ABS surges far more than any other bike I've tested. In the wet, it's pretty good, but at the same time under heavy emergency breaking with irregularities in the dry condition, it goes into a slow oscillating movement that can scare the $hit out of you.

 

It's not perfected, and frankly I don't need a motorcycle to decide for me how to apply my breaking forces.

 

But I still love my RT and my GS...for what they are intended for. thumbsup.gif

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Since the brakes are partially linked you are never using just the front brakes. I don't know if using the rear pedal increases the amount rear braking you get from just using the lever.

 

I've never felt the rear get light on me even under hard use, no full-on panic stops yet.

Someone on this board recently posted that the RT would do stoppies at low speeds. Naturally, this was something I had to try for myself. grin.gif On a stretch of dry road at around 20 mph I grabbed a handfull of the "front brake" and the rear end came clear off the ground. The front ABS never kicked in.

 

At higher speeds my ABS has reacted pretty much as you would expect. thumbsup.gif The deer population in Arkansas has given me several opportunities to test it.

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Coming around a bend this morning...the road was damp so not to hard on the front brake, firm pressure to the back and I could feel the back end coming around, then the ABS started...very squirrelly all in all.
Unless BMW has made some significant advances since my last bike, ABS doesn't work when the bike is leaned over in a turn. In a straight line any modern motorcycle will get the rear wheel light or airborne under hard braking. In a straight line the BMW ABS brakes shouldn't be squirrelly. The on and off again brakinig action takes some getting used to but the rear end should stay in line with the front.

 

Alan

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Hi Paul. i don't think what you felt was a stoppie. under low traction conditions even with abs the wheel will slide until the computer reacts. then roll, then slide, so on. so this is a sort of controled slide rather than locking the rear then having a high side. also when you are braking under low traction conditions you NEED to use both brakes. you were trying to do all the stopping with one tire. the same principle that helps a 4 wheel drive accelerate in snow works in reverse for braking. spread the power/braking to all wheels and that helps to prevent spining/sliding. thumbsup.gif

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I wasn't using just the Front Brake, as I said in my post I had to increase the amount of Front braking as the back brake with gentle front braking was not going to stop me in time, and this isn't the first time I've felt as if the back wheel was losing contact with the road under reasonably heavy braking, maybe the unique suspension set up of the BM hides how hard I’m actually braking?

But going to the post before, who said the ABS doesn't work while on a corner, Is there any fact in the statement, that's exactly when I need to have it’s crutch most, and what my first post described happening, rear wheel ABS cutting in leant over on a Bend. Is there some angle of dangle past which the ABS doesn’t operate, it’s not (I think) in the Handbook, I’ve been swooping around bends, wet and dry, in the serene confidence my ABS is there as back up if things get unexpectedly jiggy!

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The ABS computer will always work in so far as it releases the brakes. The problem is, when a slide initiates whilst leaned over releasing the brake may not stop the slide. This is because the bike is now at a steeper angle and so the side force is greater than before the slide started; added to this is the fact that a sliding tyre has less grip than a rotating one so there may not be enough grip left in the locker to spin the wheel.

ABS on a bike does NOT let you brake/steer like in a car because the forces acting on the tyres are very different.

 

If you MUST brake hard then get the bike upright and go for it. Preferably, you should follow the golden rule: You should always be able to stop, in control, on your own side of the road, in the distance in which you can see. With the exception of traffic/deer/caribou pulling in front of you, if you need to panic brake you have made an error. Something we all do from time to time.

 

Andy

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Hi Paul: just reread your first post. your right. I didn't mean to sound so upity. Sorry. I guess my main point is that alot of folk's out there tend to use way to much back brake. due to the fear of loosing the front on a corner. when i went to road racing school at tskuba in tokyo, they taught us to stay away from the back brake. and that if the front felt like it was sliding then get on the gas to unweight the front tire. so i have always tended towards the judicious use of the back brake. I have yet to have the abs kick in. So i have not felt the pulsing. I imagine it must be rather scary.

 

dopeslap.gif

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who said the ABS doesn't work while on a corner, Is there any fact in the statement
When BMW came out with ABS I remember reading this in magazines as well as in some BMW literature. As I understand ABS, the computer releases the brake when it senses lockup. My guess is that when leaned over this slight lockup might be enough to put you down before the ABS has a chance to work. When upright a little lockup wouldn't have the same dire consequences.

 

Alan

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I have yet to have the abs kick in. So i have not felt the pulsing. I imagine it must be rather scary.

So, why not try it out before you need it in anger? It's pretty uneventful (well, mostly) and takes away the fear of the unknown. On, say, a gravel road, well maintained and with a good even surface. Start off gently, with increasingly harder stops from <10 mph or so.

 

IMO, the OP would benefit from this, too.

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I just found this from BMW announcing the new ABS and stability control system:

 

"Like ABS, ASC is naturally also subject to certain restrictions in bends due to the riding physics of a motorcycle. And it is essential to note that ASC is not able to push forward, let alone override, the physical limits to the stability of a motorcycle when leaning over in a bend."

 

Alan

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25-30mph down a residential street and a car whips out of a driveway in front of you, I will take all of the ABS, Servo-Assist, Linked brakes I can get. True a professional racer would not want any integration in a motorcycle. Most however are not experienced racers, most will benifit from each and every aid there is in helping one stay in control. Case in point, friend of mine was riding an Intruder 800 and locked up his rear brake under hard braking when someone turned in front of him, and the bike slid out from under him. Now I know this can be picked apart a thousand ways to make it his fault and I am not debating that, my point is if he had ABS he would not have gone down. For the masses eveything they are comming out with is benificial to the rider, if you don't want any integration of a computer, buy a GSX-R 1000 and lock up your brakes to your hearts content.

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After a bit of Googling;

 

Motorcycle Brake Testing

U.S. DOT/NHTSA

George J. Soodoo

February 2002

Braking in a Corner – 30 mph

Curve: 200-ft radius on dry asphalt

Sport bike with LBS had shortest stop for rear brake application only

Touring bike with ABS had shortest stops when front or both brakes applied

ABS increased rider confidence

However, during ABS activation, it was difficult for rider to maintain lane position due to different ABS modulation on front and rear wheels.

So you don't go down if the ABS cuts in on a bend?

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25-30mph down a residential street and a car whips out of a driveway in front of you, I will take all of the ABS, Servo-Assist, Linked brakes I can get. True a professional racer would not want any integration in a motorcycle. Most however are not experienced racers, most will benifit from each and every aid there is in helping one stay in control. Case in point, friend of mine was riding an Intruder 800 and locked up his rear brake under hard braking when someone turned in front of him, and the bike slid out from under him. Now I know this can be picked apart a thousand ways to make it his fault and I am not debating that, my point is if he had ABS he would not have gone down. For the masses eveything they are comming out with is benificial to the rider, if you don't want any integration of a computer, buy a GSX-R 1000 and lock up your brakes to your hearts content.

I'll take it as well. I don't have 20 years of track experience behind me either. I have had to brake quite aggressively a few times, mainly to stop for a d@mn yellow light and not get a red light camera infraction, and I think I only felt the ABS kick in once while grabbing lots of brake and rolling over a tar snake, but it was only for a second so I couldn't even tell you if it was the ABS or just slipping on the tar snake.

 

I can tell you that I brake way more aggressively on the RT than I do on my meanstreak w/o abs. I can still stop in time in those situations on the meanstreak, it has awesome brakes for a cruiser, but no way can I can stop as short as I do on the RT.

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a car whips out of a driveway in front of you, I will take all of the ABS, Servo-Assist, Linked brakes I can get. Case in point, friend of mine was riding an Intruder 800 and locked up his rear brake under hard braking
When I took California Superbike School many years ago they advocated only using the front brake since people tend to lock the rear in emergency situations. (Experience taught me they are right!) One of the motorcycle magazines did a test and found that stopping distances were somewhat shorter using both front and rear brakes rather than just the front. I agree that ABS and partially linked brakes are an added safety device for most of us. You won't need them for most riding but when you do they could well make the difference between staying upright and laying your bike down.

 

Alan

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Tried out the ABS in the Car park at work.

Up to 30 MPH on damp Tarmac, big handful of front Brake, one hard judder then a smooth, and very quick stop.

Up to 30 MPH and hard on the back brake, 3(?) long slides interspersed with the ABS releasing the back brake quite violently, there was more skidding than gripping, I'm sure I can stop quicker myself without kicking in the ABS, I'll ask the Shop to check it on the computer at the next service. Has anyone actually tested their ABS, Front and Back independently, what was it like?

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Tried out the ABS in the Car park at work.

Up to 30 MPH on damp Tarmac, big handful of front Brake, one hard judder then a smooth, and very quick stop.

Up to 30 MPH and hard on the back brake, 3(?) long slides interspersed with the ABS releasing the back brake quite violently, there was more skidding than gripping, I'm sure I can stop quicker myself without kicking in the ABS, I'll ask the Shop to check it on the computer at the next service. Has anyone actually tested their ABS, Front and Back independently, what was it like?

Now I'm concerned enough to go try mine on a wet parking lot too! Just so I know what to expect. I assumed the RT rear anti-lock would work better than my old 99R1100S - which after one quick hop would not lock up again, but not brake very powerfully either. Your results sound like a bad design release. Maybe the orifice needs changing in the rear too......

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