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Do you use anti-sieze on the rear wheel bolts?


Huzband

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I'll never understand why people who buy BMW because of its reputation for fine German engineering then turn around, ignore the collective wisdom of those same engineers, and do exactly the opposite of what they say to do.

 

 

Are those the same engineers that produced the "surge" lmao.gif

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IMO there is no reason whatsoever to put anti-sieze on lug bolts, either on a motorcycle or a car. Make sure they're clean and dry, torque them to spec and they're very unlikely to seize. Overtightening is the only thing that might make clean lug bolts seize.

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Make sure they're clean and dry, torque them to spec and they're very unlikely to seize.

 

...apart from rain, road salt, drive-in tyre shops and impact wrenches, pot holes and..........whatever......

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Well Ed, once again, thanks for more than just answering the question. Your responses, & Mitch's too, always go beyond the "some do, some don't" answers. The info ya'll give is most appreciated.

 

Thank you both. thumbsup.gif

 

What he said!!! clap.gif

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I've never seen such variance in the nut factor as the numbers reported by mitch. I use .15 to .2 depending on the size of the fastner, quality of the threads, which lubricant, etc. Those of you who don't believe in lubricating fasteners are increasing chance of failure, in my opinion. I'd estimate the 5x as many failures of bolted joints occur becuase of UNDERtorquing than OVERtorquing. I've evaluated many joint that was accidently overtorqued and never found significant damage. However, when a cyclicly stressed joint such as a wheel is undertorqued, it will soon fail.

 

I'm not trying to change the world and if you're happy dry, it's your bike. But I thought I'd give it one more shot at sharing some knowlege from one of my area's of expertise.

 

Good luck,

Jerry

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I've never seen such variance in the nut factor as the numbers reported by mitch. I use .15 to .2 depending on the size of the fastner, quality of the threads, which lubricant, etc. Those of you who don't believe in lubricating fasteners are increasing chance of failure, in my opinion. I'd estimate the 5x as many failures of bolted joints occur becuase of UNDERtorquing than OVERtorquing. I've evaluated many joint that was accidently overtorqued and never found significant damage. However, when a cyclicly stressed joint such as a wheel is undertorqued, it will soon fail.

 

I'm not trying to change the world and if you're happy dry, it's your bike. But I thought I'd give it one more shot at sharing some knowlege from one of my area's of expertise.

 

Good luck,

Jerry

 

Ok, this makes me curious. I tend to always go with Mitch's evaluation of issues like this because he seems to have the most complete and in-depth understanding. But since you brought it up again...I recently had an expert machinist...not an engineer mind you...but a guy who makes his living hand manufacturing custom parts for big companies like Nestle and Frito-Lay around here..and the guy who also regularly rescues my bike from some of the DA things I do to it tell me that, particulary when aluminum is involved, a torque spec will be MORE accurate on a bolt with anti-seize on it because there is no binding. That makes sense to me too.

 

I'm particularly interested in Mitch's response to this if you have time.

 

BTW..my lug bolts are still dry grin.gif

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Joe Frickin' Friday
I've never seen such variance in the nut factor as the numbers reported by mitch.

 

What variation? The nut factor is always high around here. tongue.giflmao.gif (sorry, that was just too dang easy...)

 

Loctite has some K-factors for their products, here on page 5. Depending on which of their products you choose, the K-factor varies from 0.11 to 0.18. They don't offer a representative K-factor for dry threads.

 

Another list of K-factors here, ranging from 0.12 to 0.35, the latter for dirty/rusty threads. This brings up an interesting point: there's no indication that the manual's torque spec was not chosen with slightly rusted (but dry) threads in mind. No one has shown me a compelling reason why I should deviate from what the original design engineer has spec'd for these bolts. Can't loosen the bolts a couple of months later? That's what breaker bars are for. Riding on salt-crusted roads in mid-February? Wash your bike with cold water when you get home, just like the owner's manual says.

 

Those of you who don't believe in lubricating fasteners are increasing chance of failure, in my opinion.

 

If the design engineer gives a torque spec and indicates that the spec is for lubed threads, then yes you should lube it, and you're likely to underload the fastener if you don't lube it.

 

If, OTOH, the design engineer gives a torque spec and indicates that the spec is for dry threads, then you're most likely to load the fastener correctly if you don't lube it.

 

Yes, joints loaded beyond spec may or may not fail, but I'm not sure why you'd think that following the directions (the manual is pretty explicit about providing several "CAUTION" bullets in the procedure regarding not lubing the threads) would give unsatisfactory results.

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This retired MechEngr uses antiseize and the grunt method (non-metric) for wheel bolts. I too have seen many more bolts fail from undertorquing than over torquing. I also look for any signs of fretting in the faying surfaces. Never seen any yet.

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Ever heard the term 'idiot savant'.....

 

O.K. O.K., now does the centrifical force from the spinning wheel,loosen or tighten the bolts?or because they are so close to the center,it dosen't make a difference OR should they be left-hand threads like the old Dodges on the right side had?

Years ago,I worked for a big company from Pa..They were doing a job up here.The mech. engineer(MIT Grad.) called me a "mechanical savant"-I was flattered!!

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Another list of K-factors here,[/url] ranging from 0.12 to 0.35, the latter for dirty/rusty threads. This brings up an interesting point: there's no indication that the manual's torque spec was not chosen with slightly rusted (but dry) threads in mind. No one has shown me a compelling reason why I should deviate from what the original design engineer has spec'd for these bolts. Can't loosen the bolts a couple of months later? That's what breaker bars are for. Riding on salt-crusted roads in mid-February? Wash your bike with cold water when you get home, just like the owner's manual says.

 

Those of you who don't believe in lubricating fasteners are increasing chance of failure, in my opinion.

 

If the design engineer gives a torque spec and indicates that the spec is for lubed threads, then yes you should lube it, and you're likely to underload the fastener if you don't lube it.

 

If, OTOH, the design engineer gives a torque spec and indicates that the spec is for dry threads, then you're most likely to load the fastener correctly if you don't lube it.

 

Yes, joints loaded beyond spec may or may not fail, but I'm not sure why you'd think that following the directions (the manual is pretty explicit about providing several "CAUTION" bullets in the procedure regarding not lubing the threads) would give unsatisfactory results.

 

Mitch,

First I'd say that your design engineers provide you a better product than mine do. My best designs are the one's I produce and have them publish. As for the nut factors, I'll buy .25 and above for rusted, galvanized, or otherwise imperfect threads.

 

Lug nuts, are generally rolled thread on allow steel which gets us back down below .2. The power and petroleum industries generally assume ALL threads will be lubricated and antiseised unless otherwise specified and in fact, we have a general rule that no joint closure threads will be assembled dry in our plant w/o high quality antiseize(no we don't lubricate threads on a light switch cover but anything which get's a torque spec will be lubricated.)

 

As for what BMW assumes, I'd say BMW assumes that the threads are perfect, that you bring it to the dealer ship for all your service, and they replace them at the first sign of rust.

 

I think most experts will say there is no significant difference between a lubricated and a clean new thread. Lubrication/anti-seize is what we use to keep the threads approximately new.

 

And sure the lawyers sprinkle warnings liberally throughout all the literature. But I'm sure that lugnuts have at least a 100% safety factor for when the pimplefacedkid at costco uses the impact wrench before "verifying" with the torque wrench.

 

And one last point. It isn't the stud that we're actually worried about on an aluminum wheel. It is the wheel which is generally damaged when overtorqued.

 

Lastly, I'm hurt that I don't come across as level headed as mitch... lmao.gif

 

--Jerry

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"ever heard the term 'idiot savant'.....

 

No. Centrifugal force in a M/C wheel has a trivial effect on dimensions.

 

Replacing a corroded bolt doesn't replace the mating thread. There isn't even a warning to prep the mating thread of the axle.

 

Lawyers write consumer item instruction manuals - not engineers.

 

I still say lube them - if nothing else to keep the corrosion out of the threaded surfaces.

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I am almost surprised someone didn't recommend LOCKTITE. Red, green, blue. Hell you don't need to take the wheel off at all...You can just shoe on a new set of rubbers and balance on the bike...No problem man!

 

grin.gif

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I am almost surprised someone didn't recommend LOCKTITE. Red, green, blue. Hell you don't need to take the wheel off at all...You can just shoe on a new set of rubbers and balance on the bike...No problem man!

 

I thought I did on page 2!...there is also a purple Locktite for under 1/4 " nuts and bolts

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Oh yeah, green Locktite is used to take up space between 2 surfaces,to make a tight fit .

eg, inner race of a bearing to a shaft,up to .005,sometimes it works.

red is used for a permanent lock-up.

Blue is removable

-industrial crazy glue of different strenghts.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
The power and petroleum industries generally assume ALL threads will be lubricated and antiseised unless otherwise specified...

 

"Unless otherwise specified." You mean like in a service manual? crazy.gif

 

...and in fact, we have a general rule that no joint closure threads will be assembled dry in our plant w/o high quality antiseize...

 

If there's no pre-existing spec, then sure, put whatever you want on the threads, and torque accordingly. But what if there's a pre-existing spec?

 

As for what BMW assumes, I'd say BMW assumes that the threads are perfect, that you bring it to the dealer ship for all your service, and they replace them at the first sign of rust.

 

Few of us have much basis for speculating/assuming what BMW's design engineers were thinking when they wrote their lug bolt specs. That said, your assumptions sound reasonable; in fact, I'll note that your final assumption (replace bolts when rusty) is exactly the suggestion I made earlier in this thread.

 

I think most experts will say there is no significant difference between a lubricated and a clean new thread.

 

eek.gif That statement seems to be very much at odds with all of the references I've been reading (and citing in this discussion) that show a very large variation in the torque coefficient WRT the state of thread lubrication.

 

But I'm sure that lugnuts have at least a 100% safety factor for when the pimplefacedkid at costco uses the impact wrench before "verifying" with the torque wrench.

 

Maybe so. But do you really want to deliberately cut into that safety factor by an unknown amount?

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  • 1 month later...

It'n not even close to winter and we are now starting.

 

What's it going to be like in January? Lubrication on your battery tender plug? lmao.gif

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Jerry Johnston

My grunt's are weaker than yours grin.gif. I got into my second day of riding in Montana and the rear whell almost fell off. This was after changing a tire and using the same method I always did. Now I use the Torque wrench, knowing that as I get older I get weaker (or maybe forgetful - it's possible I forgot to go back and finish tightenning with the spanner).

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  • 6 months later...

This thread has been dormant for way too long!! cool.gif

Recently removed wheels for new tires and found I could not accurately torque the rear wheel nuts because the bolts would bind and cause the torque wrench to "click" prematurely. I decided the only way to get an accurate torque on these bolts was to apply just a little WD40 to the bolt heads to prevent binding. I just don't see anyway around this if the bolts bind during tightening. Grease or anti-seize I wouldn't use.

In no entry along this thread have I seen anyone talk about after cleaning the bolts and the threads in the drive housing, running the clean dry bolts in and out a couple of times without a wheel on to ensure they run in without galling in any way. Then - and only then will the correct torque figure work. Lubing the threads as far as I am concerned is attractive as a loving owner, but as a design engineer - it is a no-no. thumbsup.gif

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Lineareagle
In no entry along this thread have I seen anyone talk about after cleaning the bolts and the threads in the drive housing, running the clean dry bolts in and out a couple of times without a wheel on to ensure they run in without galling in any way. Then - and only then will the correct torque figure work. Lubing the threads as far as I am concerned is attractive as a loving owner, but as a design engineer - it is a no-no.

Absolutely CORRECT.

You should ALWAYS turn the stud or the nut on with your fingers until it seats, dry threads - I have never seen any spec other than dry for wheel nuts and studs - then apply the torque wrench, and re-apply the torque wrench 100 miles or so later.

If you cannot seat the stud or nut with your fingers then you could chase the threads with a thread chaser - NOTE thread CHASER not a tap not a die.

Designed to clean threads not make threads.

 

I won't give all my lofty qualifications, suffice to say I have never had a wheel come loose. Good enough for me!

 

thumbsup.gif

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Stan Walker

Those who know me can attest that I feel no guilt over breaking BMW service requirements when I see a reason. I believe I was the first to report having done my own wizzy brake annual servicing, for which I am sure BMW has me on some list......

 

That being said, I can see NO gain from going against BMW recommendations in this case. They say use dry wheel lugs. I use them dry at the full 105 Nm torque.

 

Like others have said, if you can't turn them in with your fingers, they need cleaning or thread chasing, NOT lubricant.

 

Stan

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I`am with jerry on this one. I work in a power plant where we use anti-seize all the time. I `ve been using anti-seize on my lugs for forty years. I find that the Biggest problem is they do not clean the mating surfaces well enough. Thanks ride Safe Detroit

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