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RT dies after bath


Glacier_g_rt

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Glacier_g_rt

Gave my '96 R11RT it's yearly bath, rode it less than a mile and the engine died and won't restart. I may never wash it again! Anyway, tried to start it after over an hour later and still no joy. Pushed it home to it's comfy garage.

Rode it fairly hard this morning for 200 miles and everything was fine. It just turned over 80K this week.

Anyone had a similar experience or can give me a clue as to where to look? Checked all the fuses and they looked o.k. Bike has to go in for lubes and brake fluid change anyway, but I would rather ride it than truck it there.

Thanks in advance.

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1. Hall Sensor

2. Ignition coil.

 

The ignition coil died on my '96 RT 2 years ago. The Hall is still OK but I just ordered one as a backup.

 

Best Wishes, Mark Shuell.

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duckbubbles

Yeah, Peanuts, the high pressure forces water and soap into places it shouldn't go, like wheel bearings, hall effect sensors, electrical connectors, etc. It's really not a good idea. Nothing beats an good old fashioned hand washing with the garden hose and LOW pressure. For REAL clean, I remove the bodywork and clean underneath and inside the fairings. Usually at a time when I'm doing some maintenance on it.

 

Frank

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I would be very suspicious of the Hall sensor wiring harness. It's very common for your vintage/mileage bike to have the HES harness insulation degraded due to exposure to engine heat and when this happens one of the first symptoms is engine failure when the bike gets wet. The fix (replacing the HES wiring with some stuff suitable for high-temp conditions) is easy, cheap, and permanent. Read about it here. Note that if you have this problem it is probably just in the wiring harness and you probably don't need to replace the HES pickups themselves. Also note that if you have this problem your bike will die the next time you end up riding in the rain. frown.gif

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Gave my '96 R11RT it's yearly bath, rode it less than a mile and the engine died and won't restart. I may never wash it again! Anyway, tried to start it after over an hour later and still no joy. Pushed it home to it's comfy garage.

Rode it fairly hard this morning for 200 miles and everything was fine. It just turned over 80K this week.

Anyone had a similar experience or can give me a clue as to where to look? Checked all the fuses and they looked o.k. Bike has to go in for lubes and brake fluid change anyway, but I would rather ride it than truck it there.

Thanks in advance.

 

David,

I sent you a PM

 

Do you have spark when you crank it? Do you have fuel injection pulses? Does the tach needle wiggle at all while cranking? If you answered no to any of those ?? it could be your HES.

 

Mick

Tucson

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Glacier_g_rt

Removed the tupperware and pulled back the tank. Remove and visually checked the ignition coil. O.K. Checked resistance: primary .7 ohms secondary 7.48k ohms

According to all the info available to me, this coil is bad. Should have 13k ohms resistance on the secondary. Anyone disagree?

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duckbubbles

Hi, Peanuts-

 

That resistance would probably give a weak spark, maybe not enough to jump the gap of the spark plug. Look at the coil for any type of cracking in the outer casing. That is usually a dead giveaway that it is going bad.

 

My cousin has a '97 RT and is on his third coil in 180,000 miles. Always fails after going through heavy rain. A riding buddy just had one fail on his '99 RT in Alaska after lots of rain and, you guessed it, a trip to the car wash!

 

Frank

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Glacier_g_rt

It's an easy enough fix if thats the only problem. It fits the specs for an R1150 coil and the bike just died without any indication of a problem before it happened (plenty of power: 4500rpm for an hour straight in a.m. plus some back road cranking for a good 40 miles). Hope it's not the HES. Bike will have to go to the shop for that fix! Definitly above my pay grade. From what I am told it is either one or the other or both. Just ordered a low mileage coil from Beemerboneyard. $50 and should have it by Wed. Will see if that works. Thanks for your input.

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duckbubbles

Peanuts-

 

All the coil failures I know about happened, and the bike didn't run again until the coil was replaced. Since you were able to run the bike again, it may be something to do with the HES. They can be a bugger to diagnose sometimes when they are intermittent.

 

Frank

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YES! I got sucked into replacing a coil with similar resistance measurements, only to find that the brand new coil measures the same as the old one. I suggest you take your ohmeter along to the dealer before shelling out the $$. I think the manual is wrong on the 13K ohm spec.

 

Good Luck,

Greg

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Hello. From what you had described, it would seems to me you have a Hall sensor failure. The Hall sensor is located in front of the alternator and it picks up the signals to trigger the ignition coil to fire the spark plugs.

 

I ride quite a bit with the BMW Club guys in Singapore. We do have occassional heavy downpours here and often in such conditions it is possible to have a Hall sensor failure. When it fails, there is nothing you can do about it.....grab the cell phone and call for a tow truck.....

 

It has happened to me before after riding in a heavy downpour for some 2 hours on the highway. The failure comes with no apparent warning. My guess is that you used high pressure jet to wash your bike and moisture or water might have gotten to the Hall sensor shorting it in the process.

 

Hope this helps... dopeslap.gifconfused.gif

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Hope it's not the HES. Bike will have to go to the shop for that fix!
Naw, it's an easy DIY replacement. Do a search here for many post on how to do so.
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The Hall sensor is located in front of the alternator
Well close. Sort of.

 

The HES assembly is located on the front of the cam aux. shaft, the bottom most pulley on the front of the engine.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
The Hall sensor is located in front of the alternator
Well close. Sort of.

 

The HES assembly is located on the front of the cam aux. shaft, the bottom most pulley on the front of the engine.

 

Actually, it's on the front end of the crankshaft; the cam aux shaft is below both of these items. HES is item #1 in the attached picture.

 

That picture makes the replacement procedure look somewhat daunting, but it's not. Most of that stuff stays put; once you get the tupperware and tank off, the only other parts that need to be removed are:

 

-alt belt cover (remove a "shark fin" to allow cover to slide out)

-loosen alternator

-remove alt belt

-remove alt belt drive pulley

-remove HES trigger wheel (behind pulley)

 

connector for HES is a rectangular thingie under a plastic weather hood directly in front of ABS unit (round connector in same location is for O2 sensor). Mark the exact orientation of the dead sensor, install new one in same orientation. Put other stuff back on and go for a ride. thumbsup.gif Check back here if you have questions.

721011-HES.thumb.gif.a6cf0a0f45dd60b3e64130b23390e7da.gif

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Did I miss something here? Did we get any description of the failure? confused.gif

If the bike tries to turn over, then HES or Coil could be the culprit.

If it won't turn over, it is probably water in the side stand switch, which is truly a known non-problem.

Poor HES is always catching crap for something it didn't do. You should all be ashamed for this blatant HES-bashing. grin.gif

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Glacier_g_rt

Good call. Just finished talking with Jim at Beemerbone yard and he suggested checking out the kickstand switch. I guess by unplugging it the bike should start if that were the problem. Jim also checked the resistance on the coil he was going to sell me and it was the same as mine. He had been through this before and is pretty sure that the 13K reading is with the plug wires attached.He was kind enough to cancell the order for me. 80k miles is about right for the HES to fail he mentioned. Will check out the kickstand switch tonight and if thats o.k. may actually try to remove the HES. A friend of mine says "the lord hates a coward".

Thanks again all, you've been a great help. smile.gif

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Removed the tupperware and pulled back the tank. Remove and visually checked the ignition coil. O.K. Checked resistance: primary .7 ohms secondary 7.48k ohms

According to all the info available to me, this coil is bad. Should have 13k ohms resistance on the secondary. Anyone disagree?

 

No,

That coil is perfectly OK. 0.5 Ohms primary and 7.5K Ohms secondary is spec. The earlier coils had the 13K Ohm secondary.

 

As for the HES replacement, it is well below your pay grade. smile.gif Just take pictures as you disassemble it and put it back the same way.

If you install the new HES with the adjustment slots centered on the retaining screws, it will run just great. Let the dealer check the timing when you RIDE it in for service. Be careful to get the timing cup in the correct position. It has an index tab that CAN be bent if you are not careful. Also, making a TDC lock tool (or using a suitable sized allen wrench) will be helpful for removing/installing the lower pulley bolt.

The first time I had to remove my Alt belt cover, and found that I had to remove the LEFT shark fin, I split my cover horizontally. I cut it just below the reinforcing on the inside of the cover. If you use a thin blade, there is only about 1/32" of a gap and you can add a piece of tape across the seam to somewhat seal it. Doesn't really matter since that cover is vented at the bottom.

 

Don't hesitate to ask for help if you get stuck.

 

Mick

Tucson

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incidently, disconntecting the sidestandswitch isn't going to help, you'll need to short the connection, to allow power to reach your starter button and assorted stuff.

 

but, i'm somewhat unsure after reading this thread, is the engine turning over without firing, or is it not turning over?

 

makes a big difference in troubleshooting..

 

HTH, Daniël

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Glacier_g_rt

ignition coil and Halls sensor checked out o.k. Kickstand switch works or it wouldn't turn over in the first place.

Don't know where to go from here. dopeslap.gif

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ignition coil and Halls sensor checked out o.k. Kickstand switch works or it wouldn't turn over in the first place.

Don't know where to go from here. dopeslap.gif

What method did you use to check the Hall sensor? And also be advised that when mine failed I checked it out (with an LED tester) right and left and up and down and couldn't get it to fail, but upon tearing it apart I found the insulation to be almost completely disintegrated in the problem area under the point where the harness clamps to the HES plate. When the insulation fails it can be very tricky to test the HES... it can seem to be good but the engine may operate erratically, not at all, or run but fail again the next time it gets wet. Sometimes physical inspection of the HES is the only way to know for sure.
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Glacier_g_rt

Looked at it closly and still don't see anything wrong. have only had the bike a year and don't have any record of the work previously done on it. The HES looks new but dirty. The coil looked good also. I have put on 7k miles in the last year. confused.gif

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Looked at it closly and still don't see anything wrong.
Meaning that you just held it in your hand and looked at it, or..?
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Did you check the wires under the heat shrink tubing (unfortunately this requires removing the heat shrink tubing) in the area that is under the clamp that holds the main harness cable to the HES plate? If there is a problem with the insulation this is where it will be.

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removed the clamps and bent back the wires were they attach to the sensor

 

Dave,

That doesn't mean anything. You need to build the test box described at the Dana Hager site above to test them and even that is not a sure fire test.

 

Mick

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Glacier_g_rt

did build the tester, didn't have red led so used green. even put heat to it. the whole device looked new. hard to say how strong the spark is with the Bosch Platinum 4418's,but my gut says to look at the fuel pump next. I have the tank completely off and the fuel filter removed so I could change it on Tues. when the local beemer shop opens. am also changing the alternator belt. Could use a little direction on the fuel pump diagnostics. blush.gif

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did build the tester, didn't have red led so used green. even put heat to it. the whole device looked new. hard to say how strong the spark is with the Bosch Platinum 4418's,but my gut says to look at the fuel pump next. I have the tank completely off and the fuel filter removed so I could change it on Tues. when the local beemer shop opens. am also changing the alternator belt. Could use a little direction on the fuel pump diagnostics. blush.gif

 

Did you remove the pump and put 12V on it? It should spin nicely. Just have a fire extinguisher handy.

 

The Motronics should spin the pump for about 2 seconds when you turn the ignition on. If that doesn't happen, find out why.

 

Mick

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Glacier_g_rt

O.K. the fuel pump works! tried blowing through the fuel filter and got quite a bit of resistance. Could this be it I wonder? a clogged fuel filter? picking one up tomorrow. what a learning experience this is turning out to be! grin.gif

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O.K. the fuel pump works! tried blowing through the fuel filter and got quite a bit of resistance. Could this be it I wonder? a clogged fuel filter? picking one up tomorrow. what a learning experience this is turning out to be! grin.gif

 

That pump is a roller cell pump. It will put out an impressive amount of pressure(100psi). That filter would have to be totally plugged to keep it from running at idle.

 

Mick

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Glacier_g_rt

perhaps you are correct. have done enough for one day. will install filter then tank and try to start it again. thanks for sticking with me on this Mick.

Dave

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Glacier_g_rt

Back at it. Called Canton Cycle in Winstead, CT service dept. and asked what the ignition coil secondary resistance value should be. 13k ohms was the reply, same as all documentation I have on said ignition coil. Ordered a new one to replace mine with 7.5 ohms secondary.

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Back at it. Called Canton Cycle in Winstead, CT service dept. and asked what the ignition coil secondary resistance value should be. 13k ohms was the reply, same as all documentation I have on said ignition coil. Ordered a new one to replace mine with 7.5 ohms secondary.
And now you are about to experience an expensive lesson in learning that the information you receive here is usually more correct than the dealer.
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Glacier_g_rt

Well actually not. Put in the new fuel filter and she fired right up. Problem solved and will maybe have to pay a restocking charge on the ignition coil if that. grin.gif This has been a great lesson on the RT. Again, many thanks to everyone contributing. Wouldn't have had the confidence to try it on my own.wave.gif

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That's great news.

 

But... from the symptoms you described I have a sneaking suspicion that a problem may still exist. Or, let's just say that I'd suggest you have your cellphone with you the next time you ride in the rain. wink.gif

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Glacier_g_rt

Would you suggest I spray some water on to the cover for the alternator belt before replacing all of the tupperware? Took it for a short ride without the plastic, runs fine, hot and dry out though.

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Glacier_g_rt

There is something to be said for being thorough. Sprayed the alternator belt cover with effort to get water into the vent slots left and right. Sprayed for about 3 min. with the engine off and being that the engine was cold, another 2 or 3 min. with it running. No problems. The bike is now completely serviced, by myself I might add, and ready to ride again with confidence. (Always bring the cell with me anyways grin.gif). Massachusetts to Tennesee and back this fall is planned. Will mention it in Ride Talk after the fact.

Best regards to Mick and smiller.

Dave '96 RT Glacier Green

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duckbubbles
Well actually not. Put in the new fuel filter and she fired right up. Problem solved and will maybe have to pay a restocking charge on the ignition coil if that.

 

My experience with clogged fuel filters is that the bike will lose power at speed on the road and quit. After several minutes it will start and run normally for a couple of miles or maybe more, then repeat the drill. I think you said that it restarted the next day and ran ok, is that right? If so, you probably have fixed it.

 

Frank

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That's great news.

 

But... from the symptoms you described I have a sneaking suspicion that a problem may still exist. Or, let's just say that I'd suggest you have your cellphone with you the next time you ride in the rain. wink.gif

 

 

Where have I head THAT statement before? smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

 

I agree Seth, it may take a few rides but his problem will be back.

 

Mick

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Glacier_g_rt

Old saying, "don't fix it if it ain't broke" HES will be changed this winter (if not sooner). Going to ride it till it breaks again. "the Lord hates a coward" Y'all have a great day! clap.gif

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