Mudman Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I think you will find before cannisters check valves were used to prevent this problem Link to comment
Boffin Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Gentlemen, PLEASE draw breath and consider carefully the wording of your posts BEFORE you hit the submit button. Andy Link to comment
DEF Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Were just gettin' warmed up......... I'll cease my posts and never post on this again once I have seen the canister reinstalled on his bike by boney..... Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I think you will find before cannisters check valve were used to prevent this problem I don't know about BMW but not on any of my mid 70's Honda's or my early '90's Suzuki. Boffin may know if there is a check valve on the European execution of the BMW without the cannister. Link to comment
Boffin Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I think you will find before cannisters check valve were used to prevent this problem I don't know about BMW but not on any of my mid 70's Honda's or my early '90's Suzuki. Boffin may know if there is a check valve on the European execution of the BMW without the cannister. No check valve, just a vent pipe exiting alongside the right-hand riders footrest. Andy Link to comment
Knighthawk Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 There is no canister installed on the European delivered BMWs. Leave the cannister on the bike and slap a NOS sticker on it. Link to comment
Mudman Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I stand corrected if there is no inline check valve/pressure release. The old K engines used to do this. There might be changes in the tank venting on non-us bikes to prevent introduction of contaminants. I am not familiar with non US Bikes. A few years ago a number of US Spec F650's were produced with the lines reversed for the canister and the gas overfill line which vents to atmosphere. Quite a few problems occurred and BMW had to issue a technical bulletin to inspect and correct the problem bikes to reduce failures. Failures were mainly from bikes being ridden in the rain or dusty conditions and sucking that into the fuel tank clogging the filters and corroding the pumps. Same exact issues with a canister equipped bike having it’s fuel tank vented to atmosphere would apply. You take your chances, I'm out of here Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 There is no canister installed on the European delivered BMWs. Leave the cannister on the bike and slap a NOS sticker on it. Like this? Link to comment
KMG_365 Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I really am amazed how people will muck around with things they haven't a clue about, then go on about how this or that has "improved" the bike's performance, when it just ain't possible! True, or pontificate authoritatively on same, poo pooing things others have personal experience with as well! The charcoal cannisters DO clog, I've removed almost a dozen myself . . . as a public service, don't you know! Of those that I've seen FIRST HAND, about half were 50+% occluded and a few seemed to be completely occluded but they were not exhibiting obvious signs. When they do occlude completely the first sign will be a sucking sound when you open your filler cap. When this is neglected for long enough, the vent/RID fuel level dip tube will be the sacrificial anode and the soft metal will crimp. The sign of this stage will be the RID either sticking at one setting (usually in the middle) or travelling through only part of its range (1-5 bars or 5-10 bars). The fix is to perform the cannisterectomy as described in the now-famous IBMWR link, then remove the dip tube, drill a small hole (or two) opposite the crimped portion and use a 3mm T-handle to "pop" the crimped portion back to its proper shape. As evidence/assistance I sumbit the following pictures from a Tech Daze held here in Dry Town recently: The result of an "impossible to clog" emmissions system: Drilling the hole(s): The kiss of the vampire: The fixed tube: Replacing the repaired tube: Interestingly, while many of the hoses were partially to mostly filled with charcoal for some portion of their length (with the exception of the newest bikes), it was also the narrowed openings of the metal nipples over which the tubes attached that were in the process of rusting closed. The system can get water/rain in it from the small drain hole around the filler port (seen in the above pic), as well as raw gas from overfilling at the pump or from tip overs/fuel tank removals (when tipped upside-down) for fuel filter changes. Eventually, the tank will not be able to vent at all (to replace the spent fuel with outside air), the vacuum will overtax the fuel pump and the TB's will not have the required pressure to maintain proper performance. Sorry 'bout that chief, but don't shoot the messenger. Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Just leave the damn thing on the bike and reconnect the hoses where they belong otherwise, you're a lawbreaker. You keep coming back to that, but if you've seen some of the speeding discussions around here, I think you'll understand that "lawbreaker" status will not sway many hoons from their own imperative. Besides, the law is supposed to derive from a moral code, not the other way around; f'rinstance, one does not assert that murder is wrong because it's illegal. Link to comment
RTP Rider Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 KMG_365: Thanks SO MUCH for posting those howto pictures. I suffered the effects of a clogged canister several months ago, and also have the crimped tube problem. My fuel indicator stops at about 3 bars. I haven't taken the tank off since it happened so I just monitor mileage between fills for now, but I'm anxious to fix this once I get my daily rider RT-P up on the table. Right now the table is occupied by my other 99 RT-P with a transmission swap! Anyway, thanks again - I'm bookmarking this page. Link to comment
skinny_tom (aka boney) Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Were just gettin' warmed up......... I'll cease my posts and never post on this again once I have seen the canister reinstalled on his bike by boney..... The parts fiche from Max BMW lists all the parts and prices for a total of $177.86. When you're ready to ship it to me, send a PM and I'll give you my PO box number. Please remember to include the receipt, as only NEW parts and accessories go on my bike. Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 A few years ago a number of US Spec F650's were produced with the lines reversed for the canister and the gas overfill line which vents to atmosphere. Quite a few problems occurred and BMW had to issue a technical bulletin to inspect and correct the problem bikes to reduce failures. Failures were mainly from bikes being ridden in the rain or dusty conditions and sucking that into the fuel tank clogging the filters and corroding the pumps. Same exact issues with a canister equipped bike having it’s fuel tank vented to atmosphere would apply. You take your chances, I'm out of here If you are talking about the gas "over fill" drain near the gas cap opening, which also functions to drain water that collects around the gas cap as well as liquid gasoline, then of course they would have a problem. Water would be draining into the cannister directly! A vent (as opposed to a drain) to the atmosphere, as is the case for the hose next to the footpeg is not comparible to that situation. Link to comment
RFW Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 The charcoal cannisters DO clog, I've removed almost a dozen myself . . . as a public service, don't you know! There was a difference in my mind between clogging (with what??) and a collapse of the internal carbon causing a blockage. The OP referred to clogging, which I took to mean clogging with a foreign substance, which is not likely unless maybe someone puts sand in your tank. In any event it is odd that this is the identical system that all cars have had for at least 20 years, and I am not aware of any real issues there. Odd how bikes would be more affected. Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Sheesh, 7 pages so far and no one has suggested an alternative to just chopping off the canister. It actually was touched upon briefly. A simple little ball check valve, available at most any pet store that sells fish will do the job. Keeps the bad old stuff inside the tank and, as the tank drains, it will allow air in to prevent a vacuum. I doubt that the tank could build any real pressure if left in the sun, even in Death Valley. I would think the check should be placed near the tank to prevent the weight of a column of condensed vapors from keeping it from operating. 'Nother brain storm. How difficult would it be to rewire/replumb the solenoid valve to provide positive closure to the gas tank and then open when the motor is running, venting the tank into the air box. Not ideal as the air box can operate at a couple of inches or so Hg of vacuum but that shouldn't be enough to materially effect engine operation. Might be exciting to see what a puff of gas vapor does to a hot start. Just some alternatives here. BTW, if you really want to make an impact on the enviornment, try changing your air filter often. I just did it on the Blackbird at 25K and fuel consumption went from 34 mpg to 39 mpg (at my usual 90 mph indicated, 84 GPS) with a best so far of 42.8 mpg running at (ahem) 50 mph for 221 miles on the Blue Ridge Parkway. Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 'Nother brain storm. How difficult would it be to rewire/replumb the solenoid valve to provide positive closure to the gas tank and then open when the motor is running, venting the tank into the air box. Check valve in this case would simulate a clogged canister. You'd introduce a problem in topping off the gas tank unless the engine was running (or key turned on) or you'd have to wiggle the bike as you got closer to the top to burp the tank. Link to comment
smiller Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 running at (ahem) 50 mph for 221 miles Yeah, riiiiight... Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Not so sure about the wiggle thing but I drilled a hole in the snorkle on my 1100S to ease the filling to the top problem. My '01 Blackbird had no such device on it. At least I haven't found one yet. Nor does it have that stupid thing in the top of the tank. I know from '02 on, there were some changes to the 'bird to conform to Cali standards, I know they went to closed loop operation and cats so there may well be a charcol canister hung under there somewhere. Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 I mention it as when my R1100RS started having the whooosh sound when opening the cap, I also noticed that filling up the tank to the top then required that I rock the bike on the center stand and I could see the large trapped bubble come to the surface and the fuel level go down. After I removed the cannister both symptoms dissappeared completely. Drilling a radial hole or 2 in the filler neck could probably minimize the need to rock the bike depending on how everything is designed and put together. Link to comment
DEF Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Were just gettin' warmed up......... I'll cease my posts and never post on this again once I have seen the canister reinstalled on his bike by boney..... The parts fiche from Max BMW lists all the parts and prices for a total of $177.86. When you're ready to ship it to me, send a PM and I'll give you my PO box number. Please remember to include the receipt, as only NEW parts and accessories go on my bike. What happened to the one your removed? Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Both things were happening. Water was flowing in to the canister and the fuel tank was sucking moisture and contaminants. Ask you friendly BMW tech and he could probably tell you about it. Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Most common cause is reversing the lines when removing the tank. Water then flows into the cannister causing a breakdown of the charcoal granules and the afortmentioned clogging. Link to comment
Ken H. Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Most common cause is reversing the lines when removing the tank. Water then flows into the cannister causing a breakdown of the charcoal granules and the afortmentioned clogging. Exactly. What happens is people blaming failed canisters that actually resulting from servicing incompetence. Correctly plumbed, and an UNMODIFIED fuel filling system (e.g. no drilling of the filler neck resulting in overfilled tanks) it's about impossible for anything other than vapors to get to the canister. The one possibility might be in a tip over. But then that's not a 'failure' of the emission system either! Link to comment
skinny_tom (aka boney) Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 What happened to the one your removed? Perhaps you missed the part of my first post where I explained why it was removed. It now rests at the bottom of some land fill somewhere, where it does not threaten to damage my bike. I will only entertain the installation of a new one, purchased by someone else since I don't see the use, as I cannot be sure that any used parts will properly perform. Oh, by the way, anyone know what the law says about removing malfunctioning emissions equipment? Does the law say it must be replaced? Also, automobile manufacturers have to warranty the emissions equipment on their cars for (I think) 8 years. If it were the case for motorcycles, BMW would go out of business replacing all the charcoal cannisters that start bleeding black granuals into their hoses. Link to comment
skinny_tom (aka boney) Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 The one possibility might be in a tip over. But then that's not a 'failure' of the emission system either! Yeah, and unfortunately there are probably fewer RT's out there that haven't been tipped over that those that have. If BMW were serious about these charcoal cans, they'd make some that could stand up to some actual use rather than just slapping them on there as a "feel good" measure for the environment. Yet again we see a case where the time spent designing and engineering a part is much greater than the quality of materials used. Link to comment
chrisstroh Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[You know, all this quoting of federal law is really tedious and frankly borderline rediculous. IT IS NOT THE PLACE OF ANYONE ON THIS BOARD TO TELL ANOTHER WHAT S/HE SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO. The attempts to force ones own personal perspective upon another is amazingly annoying. It brings back that old saying that includes opinions and body parts. I believe the OP asked if there is a set of instrucions for removing the can in the 1150RT. AND NOTHING ELSE. It took nine minutes for this thread to go from a "is there a..." to a "your gonna kill us all" hijack. With exception to a select few on this bulliten board, I cannot figure out why so many of us think we are the police. If someone wants to remove the cannister, let 'em do it without all the friggen' annyoance of the self appointed 'emissions police.' Believe me, you're the only ones who want to hear it.]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] AMEN. Boney, we should have a beer sometime. I'm here in Petaluma. Has anyone mentioned the symptoms of a clogged canister. How will it make the bike run?? Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Actually tipping one over introducing raw fuel will not break down the charcoal. If it gets saturated it drys as the bike is operated and the engine drawing the surplus vapers. Water will clog and break down the charcoal on any recovery system that I have seen. Mixing the two lines on the right frame at the rear of the tank will destroy the charcoal in short order. BMW stresses do not mix up! I would pull the line connector from different sides of each connection so they would go back together only the same way. Later models marked one on the lines with XXXXXX to reduce the challenged techs that still had problems. One other thing that seems to happen is people overfilling the tank can subject the canister to long term flooding. This will also cause the canister to fail eventually. I had a 96 RT I sold several months ago with 125000 miles and never a problem with the original canister. I never dropped it either, but I had a partner who was quit fond of drops. Neither bike suffered any issues and bike bikes were un modified. You start modifying for more capacity or perform incorrect service procedures or remove integrated equipment you should understand you probably have your self to blame when these things go bad. Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 You will hear a whoosh when you open the fuel tank cap. It can either be a positive pressure or vacuum build up. Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 What happens is people blaming failed canisters that actually resulting from servicing incompetence. Correctly plumbed, and an UNMODIFIED fuel filling system (e.g. no drilling of the filler neck resulting in overfilled tanks) it's about impossible for anything other than vapors to get to the canister. The one possibility might be in a tip over. But then that's not a 'failure' of the emission system either! This reads like a BMW troubleshooting chart. It's never a fault of the bike but a fault of the owner - Operate Correctly. Sorry to dissappoint but My R1100RS that I had owned since it was new neither tipped over nor had a modified filler neck but the cannister still clogged to the point where the tank would hold a signifant vacuum until the fuel cap was opened. The various hoses were not installed incorrectly for the 42K miles I owned it. I was a law abiding citizen with my 1100RS until the cannister crapped out on me for reasons only known to it. When I got the 1150RS it was one of the first things that I changed. And that's all I have to say about it. Link to comment
Chip Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 with a best so far of 42.8 mpg running at (ahem) 50 mph for 221 miles on the Blue Ridge Parkway 221 miles at 50 mph.... on a Blackbird..... Right..... Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Failures can occur with any part. Taking your account of the history of your bike it sounds like this part failed. Sorry to hear of your loss Link to comment
chrisstroh Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 [[[You will hear a whoosh when you open the fuel tank cap. It can either be a positive pressure or vacuum build up.]]] But it WON'T effect the way the bike runs ever, correct? Link to comment
SAAB93driver Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Failures can occur with any part. Taking your account of the history of your bike it sounds like this part failed. Sorry to hear of your loss Thank you for your condolences but it is not necessary. Nothing to be sorry about. The fix was easy and the price was reasonable. Link to comment
Mudman Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Normally that is correct. The fuel pump is able to overcome those pressures and deliver fuel at 3 bar with adequate flow. The engine doesn't sense any problem with the fuel tank as long as it is getting a constant pressure delivered to the injectors. Link to comment
steve.foote Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Whoa! Eighty-some odd posts about morals, cannisters and the law, and I missed most of it while watching a very boring DVD. Not wanting to be left out of the action, let me just add, "take those good-for-nothing, feel-good, pencil-necked-bureaucratic-geek-created cannisters off your motorcycles and deposit them into the trash receptacle along with the safety guard from your table saw and the first sixteen pages of any household appliance installation manual. To quote one of our founding fathers, "What the f??k happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer... " Link to comment
DEF Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 What happened to the one your removed? Perhaps you missed the part of my first post where I explained why it was removed. It now rests at the bottom of some land fill somewhere, where it does not threaten to damage my bike. I will only entertain the installation of a new one, purchased by someone else since I don't see the use, as I cannot be sure that any used parts will properly perform. Oh, by the way, anyone know what the law says about removing malfunctioning emissions equipment? Does the law say it must be replaced? Also, automobile manufacturers have to warranty the emissions equipment on their cars for (I think) 8 years. If it were the case for motorcycles, BMW would go out of business replacing all the charcoal cannisters that start bleeding black granuals into their hoses. It is NOT my job to maintain your vehicle for you, that is YOUR responsibility.........it IS my job to kick your selfish, self-indulgent backside if you are a miserable, polluting sap who cares only about himself and damages MY and others air and well-being. Replace your canister NOW with a fully operational one or sell you motorcycle to someone who will maintain it correctly and responsibly. Link to comment
DEF Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 [Mod Edit: Y'know Dennis, I think you'd be better off to "quit worrying about others' cats and . . . go ride!" ] Link to comment
Les is more Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Dennis, Please check your PMs. Link to comment
DEF Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Hello Dennis, Please stop pontficating and threatening about caanisters, etc. Your are coming dangerously close to the area of personal attack. It's not your job or right to yell and shake your fist or threaten to kick anybody's behind on this site. You've made your point repeatedly and have now taken it over the top and it's time to back off. Leslie Please remove me from the site and cancel my login and password. Thank you. Dennis Finch Link to comment
Les is more Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Consider it done Dennis, as it would have been anyway since you chose to take my private communication with you public. Link to comment
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