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RT1100 wont start!!!


madbadger

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Hi everyone, first time on here, nice to be a member. I bought my RT1100 in march this year and until now, shes never missed a beat, however last saturday i went and fueled her up, rode back home, loaded her up with gear for our holiday, switched on the ignition and she just cranks over!!! i cant hear the fuel pump energize, so i took off the fairings etc and got to the large electrical connection under the right side, cleaned it but no joy. I removed the alarm system (thought it was that, but it wasnt)i have swopped round the relays and checked that they `click` wtih the side stand and kill switch....all seems to be ok, ive run direct from the battery to the fuelpump and the pump spins over.....ive even tried to start it this way, but she wont fire...any ideas guys.....there is no power getting to the big connector on the right side of the motor...brown, green wires...

 

the local BM shop is miles away and they would charge a fortune....

 

HELP!!!! frown.gif

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Hi everyone, first time on here, nice to be a member. I bought my RT1100 in march this year and until now, shes never missed a beat, however last saturday i went and fueled her up, rode back home, loaded her up with gear for our holiday, switched on the ignition and she just cranks over!!! i cant hear the fuel pump energize, so i took off the fairings etc and got to the large electrical connection under the right side, cleaned it but no joy. I removed the alarm system (thought it was that, but it wasnt)i have swopped round the relays and checked that they `click` wtih the side stand and kill switch....all seems to be ok, ive run direct from the battery to the fuelpump and the pump spins over.....ive even tried to start it this way, but she wont fire...any ideas guys.....there is no power getting to the big connector on the right side of the motor...brown, green wires...

 

the local BM shop is miles away and they would charge a fortune....

 

HELP!!!! frown.gif

 

Your symptoms sound like a classic Hall Effect Sensor failure. Do a search on HES. Also look here for a full description of what has failed and how to carry out a low-cost DIY fix. (Note- the wires fail first and lead to the sensor failing - ensure you change the wires as well!)

 

Andy

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Hi Andy, thanks for that, can you tell me where the plug is?....do i have to take the tank off to get to it?....the guy at the bm shop told me its a corroded wire!! but for it to just stop or pop like it did, i cant see it being a wire! does the wiring from the fuel pump go via the HAL sensor? and what does it do exactly, please excuse the ignorance, i can ride a bike and change the oil, after that im stuffed, although i plan to set the tappets etc on the beemer.....

 

cheers

 

Kev

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Sounds like you've done proper troubleshooting so far. If the fuel pump doesn't operate and you've verified that the fuel pump is good (which you have) and checked the sidestand/kill switches and relays (which you have) then that would start to point towards the HES.

 

however last saturday i went and fueled her up, rode back home, loaded her up with gear for our holiday,
Did you happen to wash the bike anywhere in there per chance? I ask because water/moisture is often involved in HES problems.
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The HES and its wiring live behind the front cover of the engine and is prone to heat damage over time. The most common failure time is when the bike has got wet, as the wiring hardens and cracks allowing the harness to short out. The fuel pump is triggered by a pulse from the HES and so no HES, no fuel pump. The Hall effect sensors (there are two of them) are also responsible for the timing pulse for the ignition.

 

Where in the world are you? If you fill in your profile a bit more we may find a board member who is a) close to you and b) willing to help out.

 

A good start would be to buy either a Haynes, Clymer or BMW(CD) manual which would help you locate the bits and pieces. The BMW manual is available from your dealer or at various online outlets. Motobins of the UK are a good cheap source for this manual even if you are in the USA.

 

Andy

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Hi Andy, thanks for that, can you tell me where the plug is?....do i have to take the tank off to get to it?....the guy at the bm shop told me its a corroded wire!! but for it to just stop or pop like it did, i cant see it being a wire! does the wiring from the fuel pump go via the HAL sensor? and what does it do exactly, please excuse the ignorance, i can ride a bike and change the oil, after that im stuffed, although i plan to set the tappets etc on the beemer.....

 

cheers

 

Kev

Kev,

Yes, you have to lift the tank and pull it to the rear to see the HES connector. It is under a vinyl sheath just to the right front of the ABS module and the Motronic unit. There is a large round connector nearby too, that is your O2 sensor cable connector.

When you first turn the ignition on, do you get 2 seconds of fuel pump running? If not, you might just have a bad fuse or a bad fuel pump relay.

 

Mick

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Ah` i did use a jet washer, but not for long, i did point it at the front of the engine (exhaust area) but that was about 3 weeks ago, could this have damaged the HAL sensor?

 

Kev

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Hi Mick, no there is no noise from the fuel pump, ive checked the fuses and they are ok, the relays i have swopped about as they are all the same, the fuel pump relay clicks if you turn the kill switch on and off, it also clicks with the side stand switch.....i ran the fuel pump indipendantly from the wiring (direct from battery) and tried to start the bike, she wouldnt fire, so maybe the HAL sensor is at fault, i will take the plugs out and see if theres a spark.

 

Kev

 

Kev

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Cheers Andy, im in the UK in Worksop outside of Sheffield...i will fill my details in...

 

cheers

 

Kev

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Ah` i did use a jet washer, but not for long, i did point it at the front of the engine (exhaust area) but that was about 3 weeks ago, could this have damaged the HAL sensor?
Water doesn't damage the HES sensor per se, but can get into heat-damaged insulation of the HES wiring harness (a common problem on higher-mileage bikes) and then cause problems. But the test Mick suggested is important... the pump should run for a few seconds when you turn on the key regardless of the HES condition. If it doesn't then you can look elsewhere.
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Hi Mick, no there is no noise from the fuel pump, ive checked the fuses and they are ok, the relays i have swopped about as they are all the same, the fuel pump relay clicks if you turn the kill switch on and off, it also clicks with the side stand switch.....i ran the fuel pump indipendantly from the wiring (direct from battery) and tried to start the bike, she wouldnt fire, so maybe the HAL sensor is at fault, i will take the plugs out and see if theres a spark.

 

Kev

 

Kev

 

Since you never hear the fuel pump run, what year R1100RT are you working on? We can probably come up with some other things to check.

The two second run of the pump is controlled by the Motronic control unit NOT the HES. Do you have a normal display in your RID?

 

704207-328934-FuseBox.JPG

 

Mick

704207-328934-FuseBox.JPG.5e8b25996c793da1d12fcc0e4a04802f.JPG

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The bike i have a 2000 model. Only done 10,000 miles and to be quite honest, it doesnt look as if its done alot of wet weather riding. But it has only done 800 miles since last march, the guy never rode it!! the display is normal, full tank of fuel and 0 in the gear indicator....its funny how it just stopped working, i had a fuel injected Kawasaki years ago, and the fuel pump relay went on that, same thing, no fuel pump noise, swapped it out and went first press of the button, but ive swapped the relays round, i understand they are all the same, same numbers etc...

 

Kev

 

Kev

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I don't have a wiring diagram in front of me but I'd guess that a specifc Motronic output activates (provides either positive voltage or a ground to) the fuel pump relay. If the fuse and relay are good then you might pull the relay and use a voltmeter to look at the socket contacts for the relay coil and see if you see a pulse. If not the problem is somewhere between that and the Motronic or (ouch) the Motronic itself. If you do see the pulse it's either the relay or something between the relay and the fuel pump.

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When you checked the fuses, did you measure each one with an Ohmmeter? Don't go by physical appearance alone.

Probe for 12V on Motronic relay pin 30 and ground on relay pin 85. Just for a beginning place.

 

Mick

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Will try that but the Motronic relay does click when you turn on the ignition you can feel it, or is it the kill switch, i cant remember off hand Mick . but i will try the electrical test....

 

Kev

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OK,

If it 'clicks' the ground to the relay is good but is it passing 12V via pin 30 (input) and pin 87 (output to the Motronics)?

 

Mick

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Hi Mick, no there is no noise from the fuel pump...

 

If the fuel pump does NOT run briefly when you first turn the key on (and sidestand up and kill switch in "run" position) then the HES is definitely not the problem.

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Mick, in the Haynes manual, the wiring from the plug (green/white tracer) goes to each fuel injector and to a Timing Valve???? but i cant find anything about the Timing Valve, do you know what there on about? or is this the HAL sensor?

 

Kev

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Mick, in the Haynes manual, the wiring from the plug (green/white tracer) goes to each fuel injector and to a Timing Valve???? but i cant find anything about the Timing Valve, do you know what there on about? or is this the HAL sensor?

 

Kev

 

That is the 12V line for the injectors, fuel pump and the charcoal cannister Purge valve (called the timing valve).

 

Mick

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right, mine doesnt have a cat on it, so i can disregard that...i will whip the plugs out when i get home and try for a spark, i can then work from that....ive spoke to a guy at a BMW shop (pidcocks of nottingham) and he has given me some things to try, i will let you know how i get on....a new HAL sensor is £140 frown.gif

 

cheers

 

kev

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Mick, in the Haynes manual, the wiring from the plug (green/white tracer) goes to each fuel injector and to a Timing Valve???? but i cant find anything about the Timing Valve, do you know what there on about? or is this the HAL sensor?

 

Kev

 

The timing valve is for US spec bikes - yours won't have one.

 

Andy

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right, mine doesnt have a cat on it, so i can disregard that...i will whip the plugs out when i get home and try for a spark, i can then work from that....ive spoke to a guy at a BMW shop (pidcocks of nottingham) and he has given me some things to try, i will let you know how i get on....a new HAL sensor is £140 frown.gif

 

cheers

 

kev

 

James Sherlock, Motobins and Motorworks all carry second hand spares.

 

If you spoke to Keith or one of his lads at Pidcocks you will have gotten some good gen.

 

The HES is repaireable with bits bought from RS or Maplins, if nothing else keep the old one and fix it for a spare - I can probably help there but not in a fast turn-round as I am tied up for the next couple of weekends.

 

Andy

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Guys, re-read what Joe_Frickin_Friday posted...

 

The initial power up and pressurization of the fuel system by the pump when the ignition key is first turned on is NOT, repeat NOT controlled by the HALs. The Motronic does not know what position the engine, and thus the HAL trigger wheel, is in at power up when the ignition key is turned on, but the engine has not yet turned over. Therefore it starts the pump and pressurizes the system regardless.

 

If you never hear the pump, including not when you first turn the key on, and you are troubleshooting the HALs, you are going down the wrong path.

 

Figure out why the pump doesn't start.

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right, mine doesnt have a cat on it, so i can disregard that...i will whip the plugs out when i get home and try for a spark, i can then work from that....ive spoke to a guy at a BMW shop (pidcocks of nottingham) and he has given me some things to try, i will let you know how i get on....a new HAL sensor is £140 frown.gif

 

cheers

 

kev

 

And for the THIRD time, you do NOT need a Hall Sensor! First you need to verify you are supplying 12V to the Motronics and you need to find out why the fuel pump doesn't run for 2 seconds when you first turn on the ignition. The HES only comes into play AFTER you start cranking the engine.

Get busy with a meter and tell us ALL the fuses are good before you continue troubleshooting.

 

Mick

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as I am tied up for the next couple of weekends.

 

Andy

 

Sounds kinda kinky Andy!!! Are you gonna get a spanking too?

 

We wanna hear more........

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hi Mick, ive taken out all the fuses and tested them with a circit tester and they are all ok. Im not very good with wiring (only with a pc). Ive taken the plugs out and theres no spark. There is power to one side of the fuse (took out fuse and one lead in fuse connector and one to earth) and it read 12v. The guy at Pidcocks told me to pull the relay unit out of the holder and find the green/white wire coming out of it. Put the test meter to earth and positve to the green/white wire and turn the ignition on, he said it should show 12v for 2 seconds, he then said crank the engine and it should come on for 2 more seconds, ive done this, but im not sure that ive done it right as i dont get a 12v reading only 4-5 volts....as far as i can see, there is no power going to the fuel pump, no current to the block connector under the right side panel, so the problem lies between the connector back to the relay (i think)....But theres no spark and doesnt the Motronic system monitor that? however the relay the supplys the Motronic box does click when the ignition is switched on.

 

I realy am at a loss....

 

Kev

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Mick i tested for 12v on the motronic relay, and it shows 12v....i put the tester on both the contacts and got 12v then on one contact and earth, 12v the other contact and earth no reading, so i suppose that means 12v is getting to the motronic system?

 

Kev

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Doesn't sound like a HES problem to me either, but in case you end up going that direction, here are some additional references that might help (including how to rebuild your HES for a few quid rather replace it for a King's ransom). thumbsup.gif

 

http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/oilhead_hall_sensors.pdf

 

http://www.ebbo.org/2av54.php

 

Electrical troubleshooting for Beemers

 

I sent you a link on a BMW manual via PM.

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Mick i tested for 12v on the motronic relay, and it shows 12v....i put the tester on both the contacts and got 12v then on one contact and earth, 12v the other contact and earth no reading, so i suppose that means 12v is getting to the motronic system?

 

Kev

 

no reading? What does that mean?

Mick

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there is 2 contacts inside the holder for the motronic relay, one contacts there is 12v going to it, the other is dead, the relay allows power through the contacts, if i take the test meter from the 12v contact and the other end of the meter to the green wire going into the fuel tank, there is 12v....but not the other way round. voltage is getting to the relay, but something is stoping the relay from kicking in....

 

Kev

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there is 2 contacts inside the holder for the motronic relay, one contacts there is 12v going to it, the other is dead, the relay allows power through the contacts, if i take the test meter from the 12v contact and the other end of the meter to the green wire going into the fuel tank, there is 12v....but not the other way round. voltage is getting to the relay, but something is stoping the relay from kicking in....

 

Kev

 

PUll the Motronic relay, identify pin #30 and pin #87(they should be marked on the bottom of the relay). Make a temporary jumper to connect pin 30 to 87. This 'should' apply power to pin 33 on the Motronic connector. All you are doing here is bypassing the Motronic relay. Pin 30 gets it's power via Fuse 5.

Next, turn on the ignition and you should hear the fuel pump run for about 2 seconds. If not, get back to us.

 

Mick

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tried bridging the motronic relay Mick, nothing, no pump noise anything.....its the red/yellow trace green/black trace......

 

Kev

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tried bridging the motronic relay Mick, nothing, no pump noise anything.....its the red/yellow trace green/black trace......

 

Kev

 

With that circuit bridged, do you have spark? For some reason the Motronics isn't supplying the ground signal to pick the fuel pump relay.

 

Do you have 12V at pin 86 of the fuel pump relay? That comes through the ignition switch and the sidestand switch.

 

Mick

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right, first of all the bloody probe on the tester was broke! 30-87 is 12v with the ignition on and off, i even went underneath the unit with the relay in situ and still 12v = NO spark....12v at 86-ground on the fuel relay ignition on...0v off

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right, first of all the bloody probe on the tester was broke! 30-87 is 12v with the ignition on and off, i even went underneath the unit with the relay in situ and still 12v = NO spark....12v at 86-ground on the fuel relay ignition on...0v off

 

If you jumper around the fuel pump relay like you did for the Motronic relay (pins 30-87) does the fuel pump run?

 

The Motronic should be sending a ground out on pin #1 that energizes the fuel pump relay (pin 85 is that ground signal).

 

Mick

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jumper on 30-87 and the pump runs!!!! with or without the ignition on...... but no spark still....

 

So I guess you better pull the tank and start verifying voltages at the Motronic connector. Pin 33 on the Motronics connector is 12V and pin 13 is ground, verify those first.

 

Mick

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So do you have a voltage to the input of the relay?

 

When you turn the ignition on can you hear/feel the relay 'click'?

 

Have you tried swapping the pump relay with one of the others? Such as the horn?

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So do you have a voltage to the input of the relay?

 

When you turn the ignition on can you hear/feel the relay 'click'?

 

Have you tried swapping the pump relay with one of the others? Such as the horn?

 

Ken,

I think his problem is that the Motronics unit never sends the initial ground pulse to 'pick' the fuel pump relay when he first turns the ignition on. We have to get that working first . After that initial (presurization) the Hall sensor pulses are used by the Motronics to keep the fuel pump relay energized.

 

Mick

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{slight hijack}

 

I have to say that this thread is fascinating to follow/read: the quick responses, the helpful banter, the depth of knowledge......I only wish I had something to contribute. In the end, we all learn a little more about these machines.

 

Thanks to you "gurus" out there willing and able to help (usually) a complete stranger with, what is sometimes, an unusually difficult diagnosis!!

 

Best of luck. This is an interesting one......

 

{end hijack}

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{slight hijack}

 

I have to say that this thread is fascinating to follow/read: the quick responses, the helpful banter, the depth of knowledge......I only wish I had something to contribute. In the end, we all learn a little more about these machines.

 

Thanks to you "gurus" out there willing and able to help (usually) a complete stranger with, what is sometimes, an unusually difficult diagnosis!!

 

Best of luck. This is an interesting one......

 

{end hijack}

 

I've been thinking the same thing. I'm learning too! thumbsup.gif

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Id like to thank everyone for helping me, ive followed Micks advice and still the bike wont run/spark/fuel.....its the most help ive ever had!!! i had to go out last night Mick so i didnt try the last thing you posted, but i will try it tonight and i will get back to you...

 

thanks you guys

 

Kev

 

i will keep going until i do something silly like `set fire to the damm thing`

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jumper on 30-87 and the pump runs!!!! with or without the ignition on...... but no spark still....

 

Kev,

I went back and re-read the entire thread. You said earlier that the fuel pump relay 'clicks' when you have the ignition on and it also clicks when you move the kill switch or the sidestand. This and the fact that you could make the pump run by jumpering the 30-87 pins in the fuel pump relay socket tells me that the fuel pump relay is dead internally.

With the fuel pump relay installed, does it click TWICE when you turn on the ignition? If so, THAT is the Motronic trying to do the initial pressurization by running the pump motor for 2 seconds. The Motronic sends a ground to pin #85 to pick that relay.

 

Mick

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i have swopped the relays about, all of them apart from the ABS relay are the same and you can use them in any socket. Ive tried every relay and they all do the same, and no they dont click twice just once.....i cant remember now, but the fuel pump relay clicks as well, i think this is when you flick the kill switch and the side stand, the motronic relay clicks when i turn on the ignition....i will have to check this again....ive tested so much ive forgot what ive done...

 

Kev

 

Kev

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Na sod it! i cant get it to work, i spoke to a guy at a bike shop not far from me and he said straight away it was the HAL sensor £200 fitted so im gonna let him sort it, then its for sale....so much for BMW....i will try something else.

 

thanks for all your help guys...

 

Kev

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Na sod it! i cant get it to work, i spoke to a guy at a bike shop not far from me and he said straight away it was the HAL sensor £200 fitted so im gonna let him sort it, then its for sale....so much for BMW....i will try something else.

 

thanks for all your help guys...

 

Kev

 

Kev,

 

Too bad you aren't closer, I would send you a rebuilt HES to try.

It still bothers me that the fuel pump doesn't do it's normal pressurization routine when you first switch the ignition on. That indicates to me you have more than one problem if the HES is indeed dead.

 

These are normally bullet-proof bikes. I have over 200K miles on Beemers and have only been stranded once. That was a factory problem when they were installing the hose clamp at the outlet of the fuel pump in the wrong place. smile.gif

 

Good Luck, I'm off to the RA Rally in Boise, ID

Mick

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would you beleive it!!! my brother turned up today to take the bike to the shop to be fixed and it wouldnt go in the back (too tall) damm i thought.....my brother said `whats up with it` i said theres no spark and when you turn on the ignition, the fuel pump doesnt run. I turned on the ignition and the bloody thing worked!!!!!! i started the bike and i still rode it to the shop, once there i stopped the engine but it wouldnt start again!!!!

 

the mechanic said that the HAL sensor can cause that...anyway they have it now.....the wife wants me to get a K1200LT....anyone know what there like???

 

Kev

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Please let us know what you find out Kev. As many here have noted it doesn't seem that the problem could be due solely to the HES if you don't get the fuel pump charge signal out of the Mototronic when the key is first turned on... but live and learn...

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