2009 RT still starting issues

[bimmers]

Discussed this earlier and now the bike has a new fuel pump and a new controller. No fault codes and good spark but starts intermittently.

so had the controller installed and bike started and ran well consistently (while on trailer, not taken for a ride). Then as I was ready to have it delivered back to my friend (300 miles away) it again didn't start. Took it back to repair Joe Taffuri (local Indy shop) still on my trailer, got there and it started. Got home started it every day on trailer for a few days and it always started. Then again ready to set schedule for returning it to buddy it didn't start and has not started since then, now over two weeks on trailer in garage. So would the shaking on trailer somehow enable to it to start? And after settling fuel in tank (ethanol free 90) water may be on bottom?

Checked spark yesterday and it looks good on main plug, plug bone dry, no unburned fuel. So I guess I am ruling our spark and we are back at fuel supply, or water but I assume also water would show on plug as wet?? 

So if I try to drain tank bottom layer of fuel/water that should remove potential water.

How do I get to the bottom of the tank?

Just still went and compared my 2006 RT sound when turning on ignition to this 2009. 06 seems to have more of a sound like fuel pump runs but for a VERY short time. The 09 sounds more rattling and not sure if it is the fuel pump. (06 of course also spins up brake servo) 

 

So I am at a loss and will now 1) strip Tupperware 2) check for power around fuel pump (assumably replaced already 3) check controller (also replaced to metal colored from original black) 4) checking pump function by removing fuel supply line which is a little of a sticky for me as the pressure should be high (not like in old carbed motors) 

Any fuses, or simple ways to see that fuel gets or not to throttle bodies?????

 

H 

 

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, bimmers said:

Discussed this earlier and now the bike has a new fuel pump and a new controller. No fault codes and good spark but starts intermittently.

so had the controller installed and bike started and ran well consistently (while on trailer, not taken for a ride). Then as I was ready to have it delivered back to my friend (300 miles away) it again didn't start. Took it back to repair Joe Taffuri (local Indy shop) still on my trailer, got there and it started. Got home started it every day on trailer for a few days and it always started. Then again ready to set schedule for returning it to buddy it didn't start and has not started since then, now over two weeks on trailer in garage. So would the shaking on trailer somehow enable to it to start? And after settling fuel in tank (ethanol free 90) water may be on bottom?

Checked spark yesterday and it looks good on main plug, plug bone dry, no unburned fuel. So I guess I am ruling our spark and we are back at fuel supply, or water but I assume also water would show on plug as wet?? 

So if I try to drain tank bottom layer of fuel/water that should remove potential water.

How do I get to the bottom of the tank?

Just still went and compared my 2006 RT sound when turning on ignition to this 2009. 06 seems to have more of a sound like fuel pump runs but for a VERY short time. The 09 sounds more rattling and not sure if it is the fuel pump. (06 of course also spins up brake servo) 

 

So I am at a loss and will now 1) strip Tupperware 2) check for power around fuel pump (assumably replaced already 3) check controller (also replaced to metal colored from original black) 4) checking pump function by removing fuel supply line which is a little of a sticky for me as the pressure should be high (not like in old carbed motors) 

Any fuses, or simple ways to see that fuel gets or not to throttle bodies?????

 

H 

 

Morning  bimmers

 

A lot going on with that motorcycle. 

 

First off__ is it cranking over with authority, or is it cranking over slowly with a slow lumbering turn-over? If a slow lumbering turn-over then possibly not enough battery power remaining to properly run the fuel injections system. (if slow cranking then try jumping it from another vehicle).

 

Have you tried holding the twist grip at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle open while starting? If not then try that.  

 

If it had a low or dead battery try a battery disconnect, then reconnect, then a new TPS relearn (with key-ON fully open the twist grip twice).

 

You would think water in the fuel would  show on the spark plugs wet but if cranking with a closed throttle then it doesn't spray in much fuel.  The lower spark plugs show water the best as they are at the bottom of the combustion chamber.

 

It is fairly difficult to get the hexhead fuel tank drained enough to remove bottom water as the fuel tank has those lower wings. You can try to siphon out as much as you can then add new fuel but you need to get the siphon hose way down in that R/H tank wing.  With that motorcycle just sitting on a trailer you would think that if it has water that would just sink to the bottom.

 

With motorcycle on the trailer possibly try siphoning as much out as you can (put into a clear container then look for water on the bottom). THEN, try strapping the motorcycle as far leaned to the right as possible then take it for a short trailer ride, then with it still leaned to the right as far as possible (even then try L/H trailer tire on a ramp or pile of wood) THEN  try siphoning out the R/H tank wing again (if you have water it should show here) 

 

If you are going to remove the Tupperware then the tank comes off pretty easy after that. 

 

On the FPC, the good one is the black powder coated one, the older silver ones were the FPC's prone to failure. If in doubt try jumping 12v directly to the fuel pump (with FPC removed).

 

You can test for fuel flow at one of the fuel injector fuel lines but that won't show fuel pressure. You can see if you have fuel return fuel flow at the fuel tank return line as that will at least show if you have enough fuel pressure to open the fuel pressure regulator, but the hex head  also uses an electronic fuel pump control so you probably won't get full pump return unless you jump 12v to the fuel pump itself (then test for fuel flow at return hose).

 

Try the 1/8 to 1/4 twist grip opening for starting first then work from there if it doesn't help. 

 

If it is cranking over slowly then get more battery power to it so you get a good engine cranking speed. 

 

If you have a volt meter then check the battery voltage during engine cranking,  if 11.0v or higher then good-to-go. If below 10.0v then cold starting becomes very difficult unless the stars align just right.

 

 

[bimmers]

9 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  bimmers

 

A lot going on with that motorcycle. 

 

First off__ is it cranking over with authority, or is it cranking over slowly with a slow lumbering turn-over? If a slow lumbering turn-over then possibly not enough battery power remaining to properly run the fuel injections system. (if slow cranking then try jumping it from another vehicle). it cranks well and is on charger with full battery, 

 

Have you tried holding the twist grip at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle open while starting? If not then try that.  'it cranks faster when opening throttle

 

If it had a low or dead battery try a battery disconnect, then reconnect, then a new TPS relearn (with key-ON fully open the twist grip twice).

 

You would think water in the fuel would  show on the spark plugs wet but if cranking with a closed throttle then it doesn't spray in much fuel.  The lower spark plugs show water the best as they are at the bottom of the combustion chamber.have not checked lower plugs 

 

It is fairly difficult to get the hexhead fuel tank drained enough to remove bottom water as the fuel tank has those lower wings. You can try to siphon out as much as you can then add new fuel but you need to get the siphon hose way down in that R/H tank wing.  With that motorcycle just sitting on a trailer you would think that if it has water that would just sink to the bottom. that is right which means if siphoning from bottom it should get out. I did siphon some out but no idea how much is left. Since I put in canister I can't see if water would settle in it. Fuel is ethanol free and tank has been kept pretty full but during the winter the temps have been varying of course even down to just above freezing at times.

 

With motorcycle on the trailer possibly try siphoning as much out as you can (put into a clear container then look for water on the bottom). THEN, try strapping the motorcycle as far leaned to the right as possible then take it for a short trailer ride, then with it still leaned tothe right as far as possible (even then try L/H trailer tire on a ramp or pile of wood) THEN  try siphoning out the R/H tank wing again (if you have water it should show here) 

 

If you are going to remove the Tupperware then the tank comes off pretty easy after that.. 

 

On the FPC, the good one is the black powder coated one, the older silver ones were the FPC's prone to failure. If in doubt try jumping 12v directly to the fuel pump (with FPC removed).

 

You can test for fuel flow at one of the fuel injector fuel lines but that won't show fuel pressure. You can see if you have fuel return fuel flow at the fuel tank return line as that will at least show if you have enough fuel pressure to open the fuel pressure regulator, but the hex head  also uses an electronic fuel pump control so you probably won't get full pump return unless you jump 12v to the fuel pump itself (then test for fuel flow at return hose).

 

Try the 1/8 to 1/4 twist grip opening for starting first then work from there if it doesn't help. 

 

If it is cranking over slowly then get more battery power to it so you get a good engine cranking speed. 

 

If you have a volt meter then check the battery voltage during engine cranking,  if 11.0v or higher then good-to-go. If below 10.0v then cold starting becomes very difficult unless the stars align just right. battery is full and cranking strong. I tried to crank it several times a little longer if it would push more fuel through to maybe get an ignition at least in between but no reaction beyond strong cranking. 

I am a little bit at a loss but convinced it is a fuel issue so next is to remove Tupperware to make sure pump is running and also check condition of bottom plugs (cannot recall that they ever would have been replaced, need to check my records. 

 

9 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

 

[bimmers]

Back at tis topic. We are jinxed.

took it back and we replaced the pump again. Bike started fine and was sitting in my garage for about a month maybe a little more. On a trickle charger alternating that between bikes. Starting it at least once a week and all fine. Agreed with the "new owner" that they could pick it up (wanted my space back) go to the garage and it does not start. Checked for spark, strong, cranks well but plugs are dry. I even siphoned out 2 G of gas (as much as I got out) took it for a ride on trailer and added 2G fresh gas more shlossing on trailer but no start.

stripped tupperware off it unplugged pump and controller and plugged back in but no change. 

So what do we have that would stop pump from running? No power? We battery is fully charged, nothing has changed on bike and it has not been run but started frequently. Water in fuel, no since it does not even wet the plugs and it has been changed and moved around. A fuse? Dont know where it would be if there is one. Master engine controller etc. 

Only codes we ever got out were for pump. I dont have a 911 but will now get one that can serve all my bikes here. 06RT, this 09RT and my 21 1250RT. 

 

Any suggestions as my service guy is out for a while and I will talk to him over the phone what we can think of, but not today.

 

thanks for any encouraging thoughts. Bike has about 30k miles on it and had no issues until it had been sitting at friends compound in a shed (no A/C but otherwise fine) 

 

H

[dirtrider]

58 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Back at tis topic. We are jinxed.

took it back and we replaced the pump again. Bike started fine and was sitting in my garage for about a month maybe a little more. On a trickle charger alternating that between bikes. Starting it at least once a week and all fine. Agreed with the "new owner" that they could pick it up (wanted my space back) go to the garage and it does not start. Checked for spark, strong, cranks well but plugs are dry. I even siphoned out 2 G of gas (as much as I got out) took it for a ride on trailer and added 2G fresh gas more shlossing on trailer but no start.

stripped tupperware off it unplugged pump and controller and plugged back in but no change. 

So what do we have that would stop pump from running? No power? We battery is fully charged, nothing has changed on bike and it has not been run but started frequently. Water in fuel, no since it does not even wet the plugs and it has been changed and moved around. A fuse? Dont know where it would be if there is one. Master engine controller etc. 

Only codes we ever got out were for pump. I dont have a 911 but will now get one that can serve all my bikes here. 06RT, this 09RT and my 21 1250RT. 

 

Any suggestions as my service guy is out for a while and I will talk to him over the phone what we can think of, but not today.

 

thanks for any encouraging thoughts. Bike has about 30k miles on it and had no issues until it had been sitting at friends compound in a shed (no A/C but otherwise fine) 

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

THAT, is going to be difficult to track down without setting up some monitoring, or swapping in known good parts. 

 

Have you tried holding the twist grip at 1/8-1/4 open throttle then trying to start it?  

 

If I had that motorcycle in front of me I would buy a NOID light that fit the fuel injector connector then see if it has injector pulses while cranking (when it won't start obviously). 

 

If the injector pulses look OK then next I would probably rig up a fuel pressure gauge to see if actually has fuel pressure (or not) when it won't start.  

 

I'm not sue the side stand switch would effect that if it cranks but you might try moving the side stand up & down when it won't start.

 

Otherwise, a GS-911 might help by showing incorrect engine temperature, or errant TPS signal at engine starting, or by showing a trapped fault code. 

 

It could still be a water in the fuel thing as it is VERY DIFFICULT to get all the water out of that convoluted 1200 fuel tank. Best way is to removal the tank & physically dump the fuel out. 

[bimmers]

I have and no other impact than faster cranking.

I have listened for pump running when turning ignition on with a stethoscope and I can hear absolutely nothing. Compared to my 2006 next to it where both brake and fuel pumps run, servo on 06.

one issue is probably that no codes are trapped after the last shop visit where all was cleared and only a pump code was there, hence another (2nd new) pump was installed. 

But since plugs are dry I dont think it would be water now. I am truing to avoid dismantling all to remove tank but could probably flush brakes then at the same time, unless I could do direct through reservoirs and brake valves (not important for now)

 

I think I will order a 911 anyway this is annoying but also to clear service lights etc on the other bikes. 

 

h

 

[bimmers]

911 on order. Too much else going on at same time car repairs, house repairs etc. but unfortunately the space in garage didn't get vacated yet...................and this one resolved.

H

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I have and no other impact than faster cranking.

I have listened for pump running when turning ignition on with a stethoscope and I can hear absolutely nothing. Compared to my 2006 next to it where both brake and fuel pumps run, servo on 06.

one issue is probably that no codes are trapped after the last shop visit where all was cleared and only a pump code was there, hence another (2nd new) pump was installed. 

But since plugs are dry I dont think it would be water now. I am truing to avoid dismantling all to remove tank but could probably flush brakes then at the same time, unless I could do direct through reservoirs and brake valves (not important for now)

 

I think I will order a 911 anyway this is annoying but also to clear service lights etc on the other bikes. 

 

h

 

Afternoon  bimmers

 

You could always try making (or buying) a fuel pump by-pass harness then try running the fuel  pump with 12 volts direct from the battery. Possibly there is a pump driver problem with the fueling computer, or with the FPC, or in the wiring between them. 

[bimmers]

I may do that just to try and see. But having now replaced the pump twice and the controller I would think I have to look somewhere else for the source. Dealer doesn't touch the bike any longer so I am a little on my own and Joe Taffuri here in town. 

 

H

[dirtrider]

50 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I may do that just to try and see. But having now replaced the pump twice and the controller I would think I have to look somewhere else for the source. Dealer doesn't touch the bike any longer so I am a little on my own and Joe Taffuri here in town. 

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

Yes, you have replaced the majors but you STILL have a problem & without a good idea on what part of the system it is in you will be expensively guessing.

 

Even if a dealer would work on it that would probably be a very expensive experience as you have already had an experienced person look at it. At $100.00+ an hour it won't take long to rack up some pretty healthy diagnostic costs. Especially if the problem is (seemed) fixed but due to the intermittent nature of the problem might take a few returns re-diagnostics.  

 

Until you can define what part of the system is hosting the failure you are guessing & taking long shots. 

 

At least using (trying) a fuel pump jumper you can most likely rule in or rule out a fuel pump circuit issue. 

 

Personally, I would have a fuel pressure gauge & a fuel injector 12v indicator on that motorcycle until I identified if either were involved.

 

A GS-911 might also show you if an engine sensor, like engine (oil) temp is involved, or a TPS sensor is involved. 

 

With no fuses in major components the chassis computer can shut down about any part of the fueling control system if it sees a short & in a lot of cases it won't alert you.   

[bimmers]

Thanks for the advice, we will continue the adventure to find out with some certainty what is causing this, if not it will not be a reliable tourer any longer.

 

H

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Thanks for the advice, we will continue the adventure to find out with some certainty what is causing this, if not it will not be a reliable tourer any longer.

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

If the plastics are removed then next time it won't start pop the air cleaner cover off then give it a little spray of starting fluid. If it THEN fires right off we have learned something useful. If it starts the stalls as the starting fluid is burnt up that tells us something else. If it starts then stays running that  tells us something different & possibly important. 

 

If you want to ride it with the plastics on then with the plastics still on,  you can usually reach in with hemostats or long needle nose pliers then unseat the vacuum hose on one throttle body & unseat the vacuum cap on the other side.

 

Then put remote hoses on those vacuum nipples,  then use a screw or bolt to plug off the open end of those hoses.

 

Next time it won't start just remove the blocking screws then give each hose a shot of starting fluid.   

[bimmers]

I may do that just to try and see. But having now replaced the pump twice and the controller I would think I have to look somewhere else for the source. Dealer doesn't touch the bike any longer so I am a little on my own and Joe Taffuri here in town. 

Ok, this draft sat here by mistake.

so now I did get some starter fluid and and cranked the bike and it started and ran as long as it had some vapor. Started again with some more.... So I gues we are clear about it being a fuel pump / control issue. 

I dont have a tool to open the pump holder with and not trying to jury rig it with pipe wrenches or cross bars etc..... There may even be some tabs that need to be depressed, I dont know. 

I looked over the history during my time with the bike and I did indeed in 2019 with some 29k miles on it (now 34) have the pump replaced at Atlanta dealer. The controller was of bare metal type and now replaced with a black unit. So Pump now replaced twice this year with only a few miles apart. 2nd round we replaced both controller and pump and it ran, sat in the garage being started twice a week and no miles added to it. And now it doesn't start, pump doesn't run. Starts with fluid injection. Would the new controller be the culprit or the pump. GS-911 scan says fault codes 2

 " Fault code value : 10168 (0x27B8), Description: Electric Fuel Pump System faulty " Currently present YES

" Fault code value : 10219 (0x27EB), Description: CAN_bus Timeout: no communication with ZFE (Central Vehicle Electronics ) control unit.  Currently present NO 

 

The other fault codes I show are the ABS ones that have shown coming and going on dashboard as Brake problem. 

 

Code: 24048 (0x5DF0) Pump motor defective, currently present YES

Code: 24049 (05DF1) Power supply to pump motor faulty, currently present YES. 

 

So in short ABS problem we knew about and have not done anything for so far. It brakes but not good compared to the other bikes.

Fuel problem pump/controller

 

Managed to paste the scan below. 

 (Battery is fully charged and shows voltage 12.97V

 

AutoScan : -

 
BMSKP : -
Controller Type : Engine Controller
Controller Name : BMSKP
Controller : 0x6010
Part No. : 07719873
Hardware Index : 0x10
Coding Index : 0x02
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2008-06-30
MCV : 0.6.0
FSV : 0.77.33
OSV : 2.3.1
Manufacturer : Bosch GmbH
Program status : 330I
Date release : 6D10
Fault Codes : 2
  
Fault Code Value : 10168(0x27B8)
Fault Code Description : Electric Fuel Pump System faulty
Currently present : YES
Symptom : Unknown Symptom
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) : NO
Frequency count : 3
Logistic (Healing) count : 40
 Fault Code History : 
    Record number : 0
    Odometer : 54736.0 km
    Fuel pump voltage : 11.49 V
    Fuel pressure :    2 mBar
    Engine RPM : 1160 rpm
    Throttle valve angle relative to throttle valve stop : 0.00 %
    Record number : 1
    Odometer : 54736.0 km
    Fuel pump voltage : 10.83 V
    Fuel pressure :    2 mBar
    Engine RPM :  440 rpm
    Throttle valve angle relative to throttle valve stop : 0.00 %
    Record number : 2
    Odometer : 54736.0 km
    Fuel pump voltage : 10.74 V
    Fuel pressure :    2 mBar
    Engine RPM :  400 rpm
    Throttle valve angle relative to throttle valve stop : 41.80 %
  
Fault Code Value : 10219(0x27EB)
Fault Code Description : CAN-bus Timeout: no communication with ZFE (Central Vehicle Electronics) control unit
Currently present : NO
Symptom : Unknown Symptom
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) : NO
Frequency count : 1
Logistic (Healing) count : 38
 
 Vehicle Order : 
    Date : 0808
    Series : K26_
    Type : 0388
    Paint : 0764
    Upholstery : 0000
    EWords : 
    Extras : 
    416 : ESA
    518 : Seat heating
    519 : Heated handlebar grips
    538 : Cruise control
    539 : On-board computer
    588 : Muffler lowered
    764 : Plug-in socket
    EWords : 
    TANK : 
 
Integral ABS 2(CAN) : -
Controller Type : ABS Brakes
Controller Name : Integral ABS 2(CAN)
Controller : 0x6B00
Part No. : 07711978
Hardware Index : 0xC2
Coding Index : 0x00
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2008-07-01
Manufacturer : Continental Teves
MCV : 0.6.0
FSV : 2.2.0
OSV : 3.3.0
Free programming slots : 1
Serial Number : 68710020A
Hardware No : 07682002
Hardware star No : 07711978
VIN : ZT13692
Fault Codes : 2
  
Fault Code Value : 24048(0x5DF0)
Fault Code Description : Pump motor defective
Currently present : YES
  
Fault Code Value : 24049(0x5DF1)
Fault Code Description : Power Supply to Pump motor faulty
Currently present : YES
 
KOMBI : -
Controller Type : Instrument Cluster
Controller Name : KOMBI
Controller : 0x6100
Part No. : 07713879
Hardware Index : 0xC6
Coding Index : 0x04
Manufacturer : Siemens VDO Automotive
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2007-02-08
MCV : 0.6.0
FSV : 1.8.0
OSV : 3.3.10
Assembly No. : 07713880
Variant : K26
Factory I-Level : K024-08-08-500
Actual I-Level : K024-14-08-500 
VIN : ZT13692
Odometer : 54743.0 km
Fault Codes : 0
No Faults found :  
 
 Vehicle Order : 
    Date : 0808
    Series : K26_
    Type : 0388
    Paint : 0764
    Upholstery : 0000
    EWords : 
    Extras : 
    416 : ESA
    518 : Seat heating
    519 : Heated handlebar grips
    538 : Cruise control
    539 : On-board computer
    588 : Muffler lowered
    764 : Plug-in socket
    EWords : 
    TANK : 
 
ZFE-High : -
Controller Type : Vehicle Electronics
Controller Name : ZFE-High
Controller : 0x6300
Part No. : 07720220
Hardware Index : 0x03
Coding Index : 0x09
Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD) : 2004-04-15
MCV : 0.6.0
FSV : 2.7.0
OSV : 3.3.0
Manufacturer : Loewe / Lear
VIN : 
Load setting : Single
Damper setting : Sport
Factory I-Level : K024-08-08-500
Actual I-Level : K024-14-08-500 
Configuration :  
 : Speed sensor manufacturer is Bosch
 : Speed sensor type is DF11
 : ABS fitted
 : ESA fitted
 : ESA has hall sensor
 : Heated grips
 : Heated seat driver
 : Heated seat passenger
 : Outside temperature sensor
 : Brake light switch status over CAN
 : Film type fuel sensor
 : Manual low beam off switch
 : Storage of temperature indication when engine hot
 : Electronic windscreen present
 : Cruise control present
Fault Codes : 1
  
Fault Code Value : 41778(0xA332)
Fault Code Description : Tank sensor heating element malfunction
Currently present : NO
Symptom : No signal or value
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) : NO
Frequency count : 1
Logistic (Healing) count : 24
 Fault Code History : 
    Record number : 0
    Odometer : 6842.0 km
    Battery voltage : 12.72 V
    Speed : 0.0 km/h
 
 Vehicle Order : 
    Date : 0808
    Series : K26_
    Type : 0388
    Paint : 0764
    Upholstery : 0000
    EWords : 
    Extras : 
    416 : ESA
    518 : Seat heating
    519 : Heated handlebar grips
    538 : Cruise control
    539 : On-board computer
    588 : Muffler lowered
    764 : Plug-in socket
    EWords : 
    TANK : 
 

H

[dirtrider]

Evening 

 

First thing (before your edit ability runs out is to go back & edit (remove) your personal info & VIN number. You don't want that on a public web site. 

 

That  2 mBar is only about 1/4 psi so you definitely have a fuel pump/pressure type issue.

 

With all you have replaced in the fuel pump circuit the pump & FPC probably are not the problem ( not 100% but a darn good chance anyhow).

 

Personally, I would try a direct 12v fuel pump jumper to the battery. If it THEN runs then your problem is most likely on the control side (like broken wire between FPC & the BMS-K , poor connector terminal connection at one end or the other, short to ground in one of the control wires, or something going on in the BMS-K (fueling computer). 

 

See if it will run with a direct fuel pump jump to battery, if so then we (well actually you)  will have to ring out the wiring, check terminal integrity, etc.   

[bimmers]

Thanks, edited. 

[bimmers]

Update

Got my bypass cable took controller out connected direct to battery and no sound from pump. Cranked anyway and of course nothing but cranking.

So conclusion has to be

1) pump is bad again, what pump went in there or why would they go bad "by themselves" only after starting the bike a handful times and running it for a minute or even less?

2) cabling is compromised somewhere between ECU and pump, but wouldn't that have been eliminated with direct power?? Leaving just pump problem??

So waiting for Joe to return so we can take the pump out and bench test it. 

 

H

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, bimmers said:

Update

Got my bypass cable took controller out connected direct to battery and no sound from pump. Cranked anyway and of course nothing but cranking.

So conclusion has to be

1) pump is bad again, what pump went in there or why would they go bad "by themselves" only after starting the bike a handful times and running it for a minute or even less?

2) cabling is compromised somewhere between ECU and pump, but wouldn't that have been eliminated with direct power?? Leaving just pump problem??

So waiting for Joe to return so we can take the pump out and bench test it. 

 

H

Morning  bimmers

 

So conclusion has to be

 

1) pump is bad again, what pump went in there or why would they go bad "by themselves" only after starting the bike a handful times and running it for a minute or even less?--- Yes, it is pointing to something wrong with the pump, or the wires between your by-pass & the pump, or the connections at the pump.  

 

2) cabling is compromised somewhere between ECU and pump, but wouldn't that have been eliminated with direct power?? Leaving just pump problem??--- That is still possible but right now your immediate problem is at the pump itself. 

 

So waiting for Joe to return so we can take the pump out and bench test it.--- Do not run that pump for more than a nano second with it outside the fuel  tank. Those pumps are fuel cooled & fuel lubricated so it doesn't take long to damage one if spun up with no fuel flowing through it.   

[bimmers]

Thanks, 

[bimmers]

Pump replaced. Had frozen and when removed it freed up after knocking on it. But replaced with new one anyway.

Now I need to synchronize the steppers it seems to get it to run smoother. 

 

Thanks for all thoughts and support. 

 

H

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Pump replaced. Had frozen and when removed it freed up after knocking on it. But replaced with new one anyway.

Now I need to synchronize the steppers it seems to get it to run smoother. 

 

Thanks for all thoughts and support. 

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

Just turn the key OFF, then wait a few minutes, then turn the key back on. At that time both side steppers will re-home, then go to "0" counts, then extend back out to starting counts in sync. (it happens automatically at every new engine start)

 

 

[bimmers]

So there is no real other synchronization then? 

In this case it seems to idle rough, what else could it be? Fuel quality? Timing? Plugs? 

H

[bimmers]

I remember having done it with  twin max but may have been on a 2004 Montauk.

[dirtrider]

Just now, bimmers said:

So there is no real other synchronization then? 

In this case it seems to idle rough, what else could it be? Fuel quality? Timing? Plugs? 

H

Afternoon

 

Has it been ridden for a ways at speed since all this starting stuff started. 

 

Possibly it just needs a good run-in to clean the lower spark plugs & clean the o2 sensors. 

 

 

[bimmers]

No it has not even been off the trailer. It has all the Tupperware off and did not want to put it back until all is done.

But that is what I do then and just run it and put fresh fuel in it. Plugs looked fine earlier and fuel should be ok but will fill tank up with new fuel.

 

H

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I remember having done it with  twin max but may have been on a 2004 Montauk.

Afternoon bimmers

 

You can't do anything to change the 1200RT (BMS-K) stepper sync. About all you can do is force a new sync with it running or with key-ON but it does it automatically at each new engine start. 

 

The 1200RT steppers are only 4 wire steppers, (2 wires for fast & 2 wires for slow), there is NO direct position feedback to the BMS-K so the only way the computer knows where the steppers are now is by how many counts that have been moved since the last move. They can get lost, or the engine can be turned off during stepper pintle movement, so they MUST re-home/ re-zero at every engine start so they computer knows where they start from.

 

The steppers can go independent with warm engine (especially during Evap can purging)  but they go back to linked at next engine start. 

[bimmers]

Ok,

I took your advice and went for a short rid, warmed it up to normal temperature. AND Lo AND BEHOLD it started to act like a normal 1200 . Maybe a little rough idle and when letting gas go it seems to more abruptly "loose" power. Anyway fine for now. Next project is brakes, separate thread.