Throttle Body Sync

[Hadabadachada]

R1200R 2013 camhead oil cooled.

 

so I’m running out of space on my adjustments, got some slack in the handle grip, think I transferred it to the throttle bodies, got them balanced at 2000rpm give or take, stopped the gs911 tool, actuators kick back in, idles fine, but when I blip the throttle, and it’s dropping back down to idle, it dips to like 600rpm and comes back up. Weird

 

kinda lost gonna keep messing.

 

the oilhead seemed to be way easier 

[Hadabadachada]

I sat and screwed with it for awhile now. Little here little there since I have no airflow and it’s hot as hell down here.

 

can only mess with it for a bit of time, have to end the process on the gs911, shut it off, start it back, see how it’s not quite right idling. Let it cool, come back, hook up the GS911 again, disable the throttle servos and start again. Loosening, tightening, balancing, check, let it cool, start again. 

 

got it somewhat better. I think…. can’t have another session as it’s too late now, we will see what it’s like riding to work in the morning.
 

Them two nuts are a pain in the ass as well, practically impossible to tighten down without adjusting, there’s no space between these nuts and I don’t have super extra ultra thin wrench, the nuts are right on each other..super pain

[Hati]

I had some issues after syncing (and replacing the cams with CNC bits as they were cracked). Followed book (RSD) and 911 to a T, then I had similar roughish idle. Took it for a short ride (15-20 minutes) and all was good. I think DR said it before that the camheads can do this and it takes a little while to get the system back to normal again. Don't stress too much and don't go and do the sync again and again, I reckon you got it right the first time, just this camhead quirk got you too.

 

Edit: come to think of it some more, I think it was behaving exactly like you describe it, nearly stopping and back to idle. I recall even stopping once or twice while idling. Go for a ride man, see how it acts after that.

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

R1200R 2013 camhead oil cooled.

 

so I’m running out of space on my adjustments, got some slack in the handle grip, think I transferred it to the throttle bodies, got them balanced at 2000rpm give or take, stopped the gs911 tool, actuators kick back in, idles fine, but when I blip the throttle, and it’s dropping back down to idle, it dips to like 600rpm and comes back up. Weird

 

kinda lost gonna keep messing.

 

the oilhead seemed to be way easier 

Morning   Hadabadachada

 

Have you been clearing/resetting the adaptives after your GS-911 involved TB balance? If not then do that as some run pretty bad after a GS-911 involved TB balance.

 

If it still runs bad after clearing/resetting the adaptives then post back & we will use another way to balance the TB's. Personally I don't use the GS-911 balance procedure on the camhead as it has caused me more problems than it solves. 

[Hadabadachada]

Okay, fair enough. Good to see that this isn’t just my bike.

 

so after that ride I figured I’d disconnect the battery just incase that’s what’s going on.

did that and still had the same issue so I messed with the cables again and did the whole process again, reset things and it feels like I got it.

 

one thing I noticed when adjusting the cables was.

id use my throttle lock to lock it at 1800-2100 rpm and when I’d adjust one of the cables far enough, the revs would drop to idle. 
I thought the throttle lock was coming loose, but it wasn’t. I was adjusting the cable far enough that it was dropping the revs. 
so I didn’t know if my adjustment was going too far, and maybe it was pulling the cables tight, and kinda pulling the throttle cable back, “underneath

“ the throttle lock so to say, and back to idle.

It was kinda weird.

whys the throttle locked at 2000rpm but when I make an adjustment on a throttle body, it drops revs. Then I balance the other throttle, now it’s all balanced and feels/looks good. But  once I come out of the Servo lock gs911 thing….I’m having this idle drop now.

 

go back in and try again, get the cables to about where they were before I started and adjust from there…

So yeah, that servo thing makes these bikes a little more finicky for sure.

You can get things balanced looking good,  but once the servos come back, you see something isn’t right.

like how is it doing that, the servos are controlling the idle, why’s it dropping the revs like that…

I’ll see what the ride to work is like today. 

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Okay, fair enough. Good to see that this isn’t just my bike.

 

so after that ride I figured I’d disconnect the battery just incase that’s what’s going on.

did that and still had the same issue so I messed with the cables again and did the whole process again, reset things and it feels like I got it.

 

one thing I noticed when adjusting the cables was.

id use my throttle lock to lock it at 1800-2100 rpm and when I’d adjust one of the cables far enough, the revs would drop to idle. 
I thought the throttle lock was coming loose, but it wasn’t. I was adjusting the cable far enough that it was dropping the revs. 
so I didn’t know if my adjustment was going too far, and maybe it was pulling the cables tight, and kinda pulling the throttle cable back, “underneath

“ the throttle lock so to say, and back to idle.

It was kinda weird.

whys the throttle locked at 2000rpm but when I make an adjustment on a throttle body, it drops revs. Then I balance the other throttle, now it’s all balanced and feels/looks good. But  once I come out of the Servo lock gs911 thing….I’m having this idle drop now.

 

go back in and try again, get the cables to about where they were before I started and adjust from there…

So yeah, that servo thing makes these bikes a little more finicky for sure.

 

I’ll see what the ride to work is like today. 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

Use your GS-911 to clear/reset the adaptives, just a battery disconnect will clear the short term adaptives but not the long term adaptives.  

 

That idle quality thing after a GS-911 TB balance is a real thing that can cause problems if you don't clear the adaptives after the TB balance.

 

I don't lock the steppers for a TB balance, I just use the GS-911 to watch the stepper pintle counts. If they are the same side to side then I go on with the TB above-idle balance. If the stepper counts go into independent control then I abort the TB above-idle balance then do an engine restart (that gives a fair amount of additional time to finish before the steppers go into independent control again). 

 

If you start seeing odd above-idle balance anomalies then STOP & check for cracked throttle body cams. 

 

Also make sure the throttle cables are FULLY seated into the cable splitter box, & fully seated into the throttle body adjusters under the retention clips , if one (cable) is pulled out a little it makes a proper TB balance about impossible.  

 

You should not have to move either cable more than a half a turn or so, if you are moving more than that then STOP & find out what is causing the reason for needing more cable adjustment. 

[Hadabadachada]

How do I clear/reset adaptives?

 

I still had a little drop in my revs going to work, so I’m home now trying to get it right. And it’s reallllly tough this time. I feel like the idlers are acting a fool, and I think I really do need new cables.

 

about to give it another go here again, small adjustments, stop and check. 

[Hadabadachada]

So I’m willing to bet the cams are cracked. Or somethings going on anyway.

I guess I have to get some kinda fancy tool to take the throttle body off to check the cam. Stupid fancy clamps.

 

im trying to make adjustments but I keep ending up at the same place.

balance the sides, re engage the idle servos, idles drop and usually kill the engine. Start it up twist the throttle, sometimes the idle is smooth sometimes not, but revs always drop and sometimes kills the engine. Try and start, revs fall and dies. Really chokes if it does stay running and then kinda just rough. 

calibrate the idle motor only, try and start, kinda the same deal.

 

sometimes I make an adjustment on the left side, revving to 2000ish and revs will just kinda go to idle.

 

adjust the cable too much, the revs stay up off throttle, cable’s too tight. Loosen it up, balance, re engage idle motors, idle drops chokes, may stay running, super rough, may die. Try and start the bike, keeps trying and dying, eventually starts rough. Lol

im about to throw this thing up for sale I don’t have time to mess with this in this heat.

 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

Alright, went out one more time just to make sure the balance is there, regardless what the idle was doing.

took it for a spin, trying to let it adapt, I was getting a bounce in the revs. Let off, revs drop, bounce off idle then come to idle. 
 

came back hooked up the 911 and did the reset you mentioned.

pulled it back out and went for a ride to learn the gear thing. It seemed to be smoothed out more or less. Made a difference, I’ve never done that reset before. Only thing I noticed was, letting off throttle the revs dropped slow. Then once, coming to a stop, blipped the throttle, revved, dropped to idle, then went up to 2k and kinda sat there. Blipped the throttle again and it went away.

 

but I think that reset deal has made a difference.

 

I found some other posts where people mention cleaning the idle actuators. But I remember dirtrider saying it’s tedious and maybe doesn’t really need to be done, so I think I’ll stay away from that.

 

do want to get the tool to remove the throttle bodies and have a look at the cams as you mentioned. 
 

im gonna keep my eyes peeled for an airhead though. The more things like this that are extra complicated, the more I think I’d rather simplicity. 

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Alright, went out one more time just to make sure the balance is there, regardless what the idle was doing.

took it for a spin, trying to let it adapt, I was getting a bounce in the revs. Let off, revs drop, bounce off idle then come to idle. 
 

came back hooked up the 911 and did the reset you mentioned.

pulled it back out and went for a ride to learn the gear thing. It seemed to be smoothed out more or less. Made a difference, I’ve never done that reset before. Only thing I noticed was, letting off throttle the revs dropped slow. Then once, coming to a stop, blipped the throttle, revved, dropped to idle, then went up to 2k and kinda sat there. Blipped the throttle again and it went away.

 

but I think that reset deal has made a difference.

 

I found some other posts where people mention cleaning the idle actuators. But I remember dirtrider saying it’s tedious and maybe doesn’t really need to be done, so I think I’ll stay away from that.

 

do want to get the tool to remove the throttle bodies and have a look at the cams as you mentioned. 
 

im gonna keep my eyes peeled for an airhead though. The more things like this that are extra complicated, the more I think I’d rather simplicity. 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

Your problem now seems like something is slightly sticking in the throttle system. 

 

Are the cables FULLY & SOLIDLY snaped into the throttle body adjusters & held securely by the spring clips? 

 

Do you have a tight cable at idle?????? 

 

Are the cables in the TB cam grooves ALL THE WAY  around the cable cam? 

 

Are the cable adjusters good, not snapped off or broken??? 

 

Is the vacuum cap still on the non hose side, if so is it still blocking vacuum (no cap degradation?) 

 

Are the cables fully pushed into the cable splitter box?

 

On cracked TB cams___ You don't need any tools to check, just slide the TB covers up the cable enough to see the backside of the cams with a light & mirror. 

 

If the above ALL OK. 

 

Ride (or run) the motorcycle until the engine is working hot, then put your balance gauge (or manometer) on the TB's then start the engine & see what the idle balance is (DO NOT LOCK STEPPERS).  Is it well under 25 Millibar (10" of H2o)?      Personally I like to see it at or under 15 Millibar  6" H2o.

 

Then use the twist grip & revv it to about 1800-2000 rpm's, then see what the cross side balance is?   Is it 15 Millibar  6" of H2o or under? 

 

I like to hook my GS-911 to the motorcycle then look at the idle stepper counts while doing the above  to make sure that they are staying at the same counts side to side.

If they manage to go into independent control (different stepper counts side to side) during the sync check then key-Off, then do a restart as that will give more time until they go independent again. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

Check your messages on this site, I included you in a private thread where I worked with a member on a very similar problem  a while back. You might find something useful or helpful in that thread.

 

Please do not add or respond to that thread out of respect to the original poster -- I just thought it might be of some help to you on your problem. It can also help you on how to trap engine data if you need to send trapped data to me (if you need to do that then then send it by a NEW personal message (between you & me) directly to me, please do not put it in that message thread.

[Hadabadachada]

Thank you.

 

im going to have a go again with it this week on my day off while I do the brake pads.

 

I’ll have to go under the tank and have a look at the cables there, not sure of the status there. Have to check out the cams as well.

 

all the cables that I can see are okay. They are tight though, I would say. Not much play. 
thinking I’ll have to loosen them up to get a mm of play before they pull the butterfly open, because pulling up on them now is instant throttle opening.

I guess I’ll have to do that with a warm engine. Loosen the cables to get the play and start the balancing from there. 
what’s the best way? Tighten the adjuster nut until the revs go up then come back a turn or two?

 

on the handle bar, the adjuster has about a cm or so of thread left towards the lever. Not much. 
 

I don’t have a vacuum gauge with readings on it, just the motion pro balancing thing so I don’t know about 15mb or anything like that.

 

 

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Thank you.

 

im going to have a go again with it this week on my day off while I do the brake pads.

 

I’ll have to go under the tank and have a look at the cables there, not sure of the status there. Have to check out the cams as well.

 

all the cables that I can see are okay. They are tight though, I would say. Not much play. 
thinking I’ll have to loosen them up to get a mm of play before they pull the butterfly open, because pulling up on them now is instant throttle opening.

I guess I’ll have to do that with a warm engine. Loosen the cables to get the play and start the balancing from there. 
what’s the best way? Tighten the adjuster nut until the revs go up then come back a turn or two?

 

on the handle bar, the adjuster has about a cm or so of thread left towards the lever. Not much. 
 

I don’t have a vacuum gauge with readings on it, just the motion pro balancing thing so I don’t know about 15mb or anything like that.

 

 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Set the cable free-play with cold engine. 

 

I can't find any BMW info on original (new cable) starting point on the upper cable adjusters at the twist grip. If you have 1cm (10mm) of threads showing that should be plenty to work with. Actually sounds like it is on the tight side based of some I have done before).

 

So try loosening a little on "both cables" (if you have cruise control) to about 2-3mm of twist grip free-play rotation. Or on the main cable adjuster if you don't have cruise control.

 

If you have cruise control then pay attention to the throttle activated cruise control switch activation point (see info I sent you by PM)

 

You need to start with a little (2mm) or so of twist grip free-play at the twist grip & some short cable free play at the throttle bodies with the throttle body cams FULLY & firmly seated on the idle stop screws. 

 

On your motion pro balancing device, you really should find out what it reads in so you know for sure what your base hot engine idle cross side balance is & that it is under 25 Millibar (10" of H2o)?   ___   Personally I like to see it at or under 15 Millibar  6" H2o.___

 

You will never get that thing right if you start with, or continue with, tight cables, or unseated cables, or the throttle body cams not seated firmly on the idle stop screws. 

 

[Hadabadachada]

Noticing every time I hook up the zeroed balance gauge, my RH TB level is always higher than the left. 
when I twist the throttle to 1800-2000 I get it balanced, when I twist it up to 3000ish, the LH goes up higher on the gauge

then I balance the 3000, let off a bit, and the 1800 reading shows the RH Is higher.

 

got it in the vicinity to balanced, unplugged the battery, reset the adaptations twisted the throttle, all that jazz.

took it for a spin for the gear adaptations, felt like it was maybe getting too much fuel almost? Kinda  bogging from a stop, at the low RPM. Or maybe not enough fuel…shrug. Maybe it’s just adapting and that will go away. Feels the same when I twist the throttle 100%, kinda like I’m riding thru spotty deep puddles, like the acceleration is a bumpy road of wacky throttle percentage. Maybe that’s the ECU limiting gas and I never noticed it before. I’ve never reset adaptations though, maybe it’s just learning. Who knows. 

 

im just going to try and get it close enough and call it a day. 

 

[Hadabadachada]

You know what, I should change all the filters too, just went back and checked, it’s been about 12-14,000 miles since I’ve changed air and fuel filters. Couldn’t hurt. 
also just remembered I disconnected the af-xied thing to do the balancing. Maybe that fueling thing I notice is due to that, it sure does feel boggy pulling away from a stop, as well as just twisting the throttle at idle, do it too quick and it sometimes dies, struggles…really sketch when it dies at a light trying to pull away, has happened a few times…shrug

 

always wondered if the injectors were clogged, for being a 10 year old bike with 3500 miles when I bought it… did a lot of sitting…maybe should get them cleaned.

[Hati]

A question for @dirtrider: what is the point of balancing above idle at all? 

 

Like in this case where the balance changes in different rev ranges. If all one does is fiddle with the throttle cable, it's only logical that adjusting them for balance at idle will throw it off balance elsewhere.

 

Is it that you try to achieve a middle ground between the different rev ranges?

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Noticing every time I hook up the zeroed balance gauge, my RH TB level is always higher than the left. 
when I twist the throttle to 1800-2000 I get it balanced, when I twist it up to 3000ish, the LH goes up higher on the gauge

then I balance the 3000, let off a bit, and the 1800 reading shows the RH Is higher.

 

got it in the vicinity to balanced, unplugged the battery, reset the adaptations twisted the throttle, all that jazz.

took it for a spin for the gear adaptations, felt like it was maybe getting too much fuel almost? Kinda  bogging from a stop, at the low RPM. Or maybe not enough fuel…shrug. Maybe it’s just adapting and that will go away. Feels the same when I twist the throttle 100%, kinda like I’m riding thru spotty deep puddles, like the acceleration is a bumpy road of wacky throttle percentage. Maybe that’s the ECU limiting gas and I never noticed it before. I’ve never reset adaptations though, maybe it’s just learning. Who knows. 

 

im just going to try and get it close enough and call it a day. 

 

Morning   Hadabadachada

 

I would help to know exactly how much higher or lower it actually is between sides in Millibars. 

 

A little variance between throttle opening & throttle closing  is not unusual but if a lot then something is still off. 

 

Is your idle smooth & stable?

 

Maybe try riding it for while to see if it acts better.

 

When was the last time you checked/adjusted the valves?  

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

You know what, I should change all the filters too, just went back and checked, it’s been about 12-14,000 miles since I’ve changed air and fuel filters. Couldn’t hurt. 
also just remembered I disconnected the af-xied thing to do the balancing. Maybe that fueling thing I notice is due to that, it sure does feel boggy pulling away from a stop, as well as just twisting the throttle at idle, do it too quick and it sometimes dies, struggles…really sketch when it dies at a light trying to pull away, has happened a few times…shrug

 

always wondered if the injectors were clogged, for being a 10 year old bike with 3500 miles when I bought it… did a lot of sitting…maybe should get them cleaned.

Morning Hadabadachada

 

If definitely wouldn't hurt to change the filters but neither the fuel filter or the air filter will effect the side to side balance to any great degree.

 

On the ride-away bog, both a plugging air filter and/or plugging fuel filter should effect the ride-away without severely effecting the higher RPM power more. 

 

Can you trap some warm engine ride-away & low speed throttle operation with your GS-911 then send me the .CSV data? Possibly I can spot something in the data. 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Hati said:

A question for @dirtrider: what is the point of balancing above idle at all? 

 

Like in this case where the balance changes in different rev ranges. If all one does is fiddle with the throttle cable, it's only logical that adjusting them for balance at idle will throw it off balance elsewhere.

 

Is it that you try to achieve a middle ground between the different rev ranges?

Morning Hati

 

You can't set/adjust the idle balance on the 1200 hexhead/camhead fuel injected motorcycles as that is strictly computer controlled.  The only available adjustment is at open throttle plate using the throttle cables. 

 

The 1800-2000 RPM is probably the most critical but that can't be set correctly if the computer controlled idle is way off. Then a check at 3000 RPM's or so just verifies that the throttle plates are tracking close side to side. 

 

But the throttle body levers must be solidly seated on the base idle screws at idle for all to work correctly.  If a cable is tight & holding a throttle plate slightly open at idle then all bets are off as far as getting a proper cross side balance goes.

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

I should have become a mechanic when I was younger. This stuff is kinda fun in a way. 
 

I would say the bike rides pretty good at this point, shifts smoother with it more or less balanced. Last two rides just had that bogging type of deal. Which got me to check records when I last changed filters. I rechecked the valve clearances a few weeks ago when it was about 6000 miles since I made adjustments and got them in spec. Everything still in spec, all of them are at the looser end of things, higher end of the range. And that’s just because of the shim size options when I did the job initially. Figured I’d leave them on the looser end rather than tighter. 
 

I’ll see if I can ride with the computer.

wish I would have sprung the extra money all these years ago to get the WiFi 911….shucks

 

thanks for the help as always y’all

 I know I just get to typing like crazy on here trying to get my brain to explain. Wish I had a friend or two that I could chat with in person. Y’all are it, so I’m grateful for y’all. 

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I should have become a mechanic when I was younger. This stuff is kinda fun in a way. 
 

I would say the bike rides pretty good at this point, shifts smoother with it more or less balanced. Last two rides just had that bogging type of deal. Which got me to check records when I last changed filters. I rechecked the valve clearances a few weeks ago when it was about 6000 miles since I made adjustments and got them in spec. Everything still in spec, all of them are at the looser end of things, higher end of the range. And that’s just because of the shim size options when I did the job initially. Figured I’d leave them on the looser end rather than tighter. 
 

I’ll see if I can ride with the computer.

wish I would have sprung the extra money all these years ago to get the WiFi 911….shucks

 

thanks for the help as always y’all

 I know I just get to typing like crazy on here trying to get my brain to explain. Wish I had a friend or two that I could chat with in person. Y’all are it, so I’m grateful for y’all. 

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

If you have it running decently then just ride it for a few weeks to see how it acts.

 

If you get a chance maybe build yourself a homemade  "U" tube manometer then in a few weeks re-check your 1800-2000rpm balance. That way we can put some numbers on your idle & 1800 rpm balance delta.

 

It sounds like it is close enough now to use a liquid "U" tube & not suck the water out of it. 

 

[Hadabadachada]

Dang, makes me wish I didn’t throw mine away after I got that motion pro thing…off to Home Depot!

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Dang, makes me wish I didn’t throw mine away after I got that motion pro thing…off to Home Depot!

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

When you go to use the manometer the first time pinch one side hose with needle nose pliers, or a brake hose clamp, or pair of hemostats, or something similar. Then slowly release that clamp after the engine is running. (you only need to clamp off one side)

 

If it looks like it is going to suck the fluid out of the U hose then re-clamp it quickly & find out what is wrong with your existing throttle body balance.  

[Hati]

How long a hose do  you need? Now you got me chasing perfection past of what my electronic manometer can show/do :D

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, Hati said:

How long a hose do  you need? Now you got me chasing perfection past of what my electronic manometer can show/do :D

Morning Hati

 

It depends, 

 

On how high you want to make the manometer? Also depends on how far away from the motorcycle you want to place it.

 

The higher you make the manometer the farther the liquid levels can move before sucking the fluid out. On a single motorcycle that you know is very close to being correct and that you just want to check/verify with accuracy or precision then a 2 foot high manometer will work. 

 

If you want to use it on a number of different motorcycles with  the chance of some not being close then a 3 foot high manometer makes more sense. But a 3 foot high is more difficult to store when not in use. My shop manometer is 4 foot high but it is on a heavy metal frame stand with feet,  my portable is about 2 foot high & I can hang that on about anything. 

 

In any case,  you figure the hose length needed by how high you want to make your manometer so if it is 2 feet high then double that +3 inches. So that would be  4'-3" of hose just for the main U run. Then figure out how far you will be placing the manometer from the FAR SIDE throttle body nipple  (let's say 4 feet), you need a hose run for each side so that would be 8 feet of hose.

 

So, to place a 2' high manometer 4' from the far side throttle body nipple then you would need 12'-3" of hose. 

 

You don't have to make it one piece, you can make the main U tube as one continuous hose run with the connection hose between the manometer & motorcycle as 2 separate hoses.  This is how my personal manometers are built as I use 90° fittings at the top of the manometer so the hoses come off the top of the manometer at 90°. 

 

I also use aquarium bubbler hose close-off clamps that I can adjust down to take most of the liquid column pulses out of the liquid level (twin cylinder 180° firing BMW boxer engines have fairly harsh intake pulses so damping those pulses as they enter the manometer will settle the liquid columns down a bit. 

 

[Hadabadachada]

So I have not gotten the hose deal or checked anymore BUT….

I removed the exhaust flapper valve…

unplugged it first, then went and got a piece of pipe fitted yesterday…I gotta say, that has gotten rid of some of the weird throttle issues I had, like the engine kinda choking on a rev, or the stutter it does sometimes from a stop once the throttle is cracked and clutch engaging.

(which is the worst, because I’ve had it die a few times on a fresh green and the people are expecting you to go when you start moving, then it stalls, almost dropped the bike a couple times when that’s happened in a slow speed turn) 

so if that flapper is for noise, what a safety hazard man…