Automatic transmissions on BMW are coming.

[fourteenfour]

No manual clutch but the ability to shift manually is kept by keeping the foot shifter but it appears the the D/M switch on the right controls will swap between automatic and manual.

 

 

 

[bendbill]

And a shorter print article from BMWUSA:

 

https://www.bmwusanews.com/newsrelease.do?id=4334&mid=

 

 

 

[roadscholar]

I have four buddies with DCT on Africa Twins, all long-time expert riders on and off road, they would never go back.

[JCtx]

With quick-shifters up and down, I MUCH prefer to keep the clutch. Not only is my bike lighter, but less complex, and I'm almost certain I can to a better job of modulating the clutch than the computer. But for those averse to shifting, it's always good to have an option. I hope it's always an option, but if cars are any indication, I wouldn't hold my breath to that. Ha ha. But by the time that happens on bikes, I'll probably be gone, and unable to witness the sacrilege. By the way, Honda has had prior bikes with DCT, like the previous VFR1200 (remember that one?). And Yamaha had it with the FJR1300, with the switches (aka paddles) on the left handlebar, as well as the regular pedal. I'm surprised there aren't more auto bikes by now, especially smaller ones, since women are the most likely buyers of that technology IMO.

[Hosstage]

I read an article years ago in Motorcyclist Magazine. They went into an automatic bike review (probably the Africa Twin) with full disclosure of bias toward regular clutch bikes, no place for an automatic. After a few days with the bike, they felt it was actually pretty nice, but we're still biased toward the standard clutch.

Once the rest was over, they went back to the other bikes in the fleet, and found that they really didn't like the standard as much anymore, they really liked the automatics. They were as surprised as any, and a bit embarrassed, but owned their new appreciation.

[9Mary7]

13 hours ago, JCtx said:

I'm almost certain I can to a better job of modulating the clutch than the computer.

Ride one and you will realize that you cannot......I sold Honda's for 4 years and have ridden several different models/iterations of the DCT. You cannot stall it, can't catch it in the wrong gear, cannot fake it out in any strange situation, even at illegal speeds on a tight and twisty canyon road.......truly excellent tech from Honda

[lkraus]

15 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Memba the Hondamatic.  I rode one when I was 12ish.  My brothers girlfriend had one and tossed me the keys.  Gave me some roads not to cross and let me go on my way.  For a little kid, it was fun ride.

 

If memory is correct, it looked just like this

 

I had a 1980 CB400T with the manual six-speed and also had a 1978 two speed CB400A Hondamatic like that red-orange one for about six months.   The manual was more fun, but the automatic was perfect for my morning commute in heavy stop and go traffic because it was so easy to creep along and balance, feet up, with just a little pressure on the rear brake.

[roadscholar]

On 5/5/2024 at 2:21 PM, roadscholar said:

I have four buddies with DCT on Africa Twins, all long-time expert riders on and off road, they would never go back.

 

8 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

Ride one and you will realize that you cannot......I sold Honda's for 4 years and have ridden several different models/iterations of the DCT. You cannot stall it, can't catch it in the wrong gear, cannot fake it out in any strange situation, even at illegal speeds on a tight and twisty canyon road.......truly excellent tech from Honda

 

They all agree, once you acclimate a little the DCT excels off road in every way. 

 

Automatic bikes have been around awhile, it just took one of the major players to bring them to prime time, and a couple of tries at that. Thank goodness for engineers thinking outside the box and early adopters that paved the way:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_V1000_Convert

 

https://motocrossactionmag.com/long-winding-road-history-of-the-husqvarna-automatic/

 

And to go back further, in cars, the evolution of the automatic stick-shift. Sometimes it takes decades to bring an idea/concept to fruition and in Porsche's case eventually gave us the double clutch transmission now used in all race cars and most high performance street cars these days. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15366473/shift-this-a-history-of-porsches-sportomatic-tiptronic-and-pdk-transmissions/

 

 

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

I would have bought one on the spot during the climb up Fork Mountain on 119 last week.

[AviP]

While the tech is great, old farts like me love the feeling of control that a manual offers. I love my Viper, all the bikes in my stable. I would have gone manual with the other cars I own as well if it wasn't for the wife who does not drive shift. But while I crave 3-pedal driving, I really enjoyed driving my Tesla Model 3 with single-pedal driving. Yes, it has a brake pedal but it is not needed until the very end of a stop light situation. So, perhaps when motorcycles go full electric, then I'll enjoy them as automatics but until then, I'm sticking with the manual.

[John Ranalletta]

My first m/c was a Yamaha 650cc metric cruiser with shaft drive...never an issue with the rear unit.  My first few BMWs had rear drive issues needing rebuilding.  I wondered why BMW just didn't license the proven tech from Yamaha.  LIkely, BMW's rendition of DCT will be overly complicated and priced.  Suggest BMW license Honda's tech.

[roadscholar]

Anyone look at the links I posted above, Honda didn't make the first automatic motorcycles (Husqvarna and Moto Guzzi did) or DCT transmission (Porsche did, in the 70's). What the Japanese excel at is copying European ideas/technology and make it simpler, cheaper, and more reliable. 
 

ETA.. Each company had their reasons (mother of invention), Husqvarna wanted the contract for military use so new riders could adapt quickly, an unexpected by-product was they were quicker in enduros. Moto Guzzi wanted the contract for CHP bikes in the US and at the time considered it a plus for urban use and hopping on and off a running bike. Porsche developed the PDK (DCT) so it’s turbocharged race cars wouldn’t fall off boost between shifts letting them accelerate faster.

[JCtx]

On 5/6/2024 at 6:21 AM, 9Mary7 said:

Ride one and you will realize that you cannot.

Then you're not a real manual guy. I don't have to ride one, because I ride DCT vehicles all the time, and not even my brother's Ferraris and Porsches with DCTs handle low-speed driving better than a clutch. Try putting a DCT up on ramps, and you'd know what I'm talking about. Then open the door, and the damn thing goes into N; geez. Anyway, vehicles have had DCTs since around 2008, so more advanced than bikes. It's a matter of preference, but with some low-speed situations, no computer is going to do exactly what I want, period. But yes, they do shift way quicker than I can on any manual car (bikes with quick-shifters shift just as quickly), and nobody can deny that. I enjoy driving DCTs too, which I do with the paddles all the time, but low-speed maneuvers remain an issue, even with Porsche's PDK (I owned one), which is the best IMO. The good news is modern manual bikes with up/down quick-shifters are almost automatic, since you can basically do all shifts without the clutch, except to take off. So there's a lot less 'need' for an auto bike than a car IMO, but my daughter is one person who would ride an auto bike, but not one with a clutch. Once we 'manual guys' die off, the manual transmission probably will too for good (it's almost there with cars. Ha ha).

[92Merc]

I drove a rental Ford Focus once with their DCT.  Slow speed parking lots were jerky.  Horrible at slow speed.  Once up to speed, it was fine.  But that was a huge POS transmission for Ford.  They should never have gone with that transmission.  It was undersized for the application.  Ford picked it from GETRAG Germany based on that size being a dry clutch, weighing less, and better fuel economy.  But based on torque, they should have moved up to the wet clutch DCT.  That trans was more costly and heavier.  Never mind Ford's transmission control modules were crap on top of that.

 

But no where is BMW saying their auto is a DCT.  So the DCT discussion is all academic.  Everything I'm reading is that it is still a single clutch with electric clutch engagement.  So I'll reserve judgement until I test ride one.

[roadscholar]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:21 AM, Rougarou said:

Did a wee bit of digging.  Honda's automatic history on 500cc cars that was later adopted to motorcycles.  "We [Honda] refuse to depend on anyone else. We will not copy foreign products nor pay royalties for the use of other companies’ patents. We don’t intend to get support from the government, either. I’m making it clear that we will do it our way."

 

First car with DCT was the Hillman Minx  then in tractors until Porsche caught on.

 

thanks for making me dig,....interesting stuff on this evolution.

 

You're welcome : ) yes it is. That article was written by Honda's PR dept. but also said this (in somewhat vague terms).

 

"Lurking behind the system’s sensational debut, however, were several journalists and automotive engineers who assumed that lawsuits would result from patent infringement. This decidedly pessimistic view also was shared by many who were knowledgeable about automatic transmissions.

Hattori was not exactly sure when the Hondamatic transmission made its official debut. Personnel from the Patent Section frequently visited the Patent Information Center in Osaka, which housed the largest collection of patent documents relating to power transmission mechanisms. There they sifted through mountains of data, hoping to find patents pertaining to automatic transmissions. Even Hattori would make occasional trips to Osaka on weekends and holidays. Although everybody had done their best, no one could say for sure that they had checked all the files that had piled up on the shelves of the Patent Information Center.

 

No doubt Honda has innovated more than a few ideas/technologies but they've also copied plenty of others carefully skirting patent infringement or waiting for them to expire. They waited 17 years for Moto Guzzi's patent on linked brakes to expire. I've never seen it written anywhere but in a book on the history of Moto Guzzi there's a photo of an inline four cylinder 250cc from the mid 60's, it is a spitting image of the Honda sohc 750 that debuted a few years later in 1969. Ironic it's the bike that put the British motorcycle industry out of business and almost the Italians. Ask Craig Vetter what he thinks (too late now) of Honda's business practices, I've talked to him at length about it, don't know if lawyers were involved but he was bitter to say the least. They bought his Windjammer fairing and bags in the 70's and sold them as a package thru dealers on new Goldwings. It didn't take long for Honda to plagiarize his concept and develop their own Hondaline fairings for the Goldwing and other models. He had no such issue with Yamaha who continued to use the Windjammer and smaller Quicksiver fairing plus other designs thru the 80's. 

 

Re: DCT, I carefully worded my post not to say Porsche invented the the DCT but were the first to make it work successfully (you have to read between the lines a little : ) the inventor was a Frenchman in 1939 but supposedly ran out of money, the Hillman Minx was a failed attempt by the Brits in the 50's/60's. 

 

This DCT – introduced on the 1961 Hillman Minx (Series IIIC) – used two electro-magnetic clutches, along with analogue electronics and a series of solenoids to implement the gear shifts.^[15][16] The Easidrive was offered as an option on Hillman and Singer models, however it was not a reliable device and many were replaced by conventional manual transmissions.

 

 

 

[Hosstage]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:21 AM, 9Mary7 said:

Ride one and you will realize that you cannot

 

3 hours ago, JCtx said:

Then you're not a real manual guy.

A bit presumptuous, don't you think?

 

You have decreed the automatic motorcycles as inferior, and yet never ridden one.

Either ride one and give first hand feedback, or don't ride one and absorb info given by others.

[wbw6cos]

Take a good long look at the avatar.  It pretty much speaks for itself;  has clutch, will travel!

[9Mary7]

42 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

A bit presumptuous, don't you think?

I'm goin with "Hubris"......