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2004 R11O0S cuts out underway.


Hadabadachada

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Hadabadachada

I highjacked someone with a similar sounding issues post, so here it is again.

I prefer a forum like this, make your own post. 
some forums get on you like, there’s a search button you cork sucker..

This is much better, start a post and give your story.

 

2004 R1100S twin spark 78,500


I’ve recently been having more and more of this. I AM back on the af xied module, it runs noticeably smoother with it.

I only went back after I had this same cut out issue happen twice, the same way, when I ran it stock O2 sensor for several tanks of gas. figured, it’s not the module. 
starts up fine but on the highway, on a backroad, it’s happened all over, running fine and it just dies, like a switch, power is on but bike dies, then won’t crank back for a few minutes but then it starts normal and goes normal. 
last night it did it leaving work. And wouldn’t start for 30 minutes then it started made it 70 feet and died again. Then wouldn’t start for another 30 minutes or so, then cranked right up and rode off. It may have stuttered slightly at one point on the way. 
 it’s just like the fuel is cut.

im cycling they key over and over when I’m trying to get it started, on and off, couple times, bunch of times all of the above. 

 

current fuel pump and filter have less than 15,000 miles on them, hoses are all new. After last night I got in there and replaced the pressure regulator, thinking, I HAVNT changed this, maybe it’s causing a bubble or loss of pressure… but same thing happened out for lunch today, luckily it started after 5 minutes. 
 

ive also felt it stutter too here and there, like gas is cut and back, doesn’t quite die, keeps going.

ive noticed it usually only happens in the later side of the warm up time frame, like the engine is not cold but not fully warm. 
today at lunch, as well as the other day before trying to go fishing, bike had been stopped for about an hour not fully cold but still warm, try to start and it won’t start. Made me wonder if it’s some kinda temp sensor or something, something is faulting. As it doesn’t happen when on the cold part of warm up, and once it’s warm it doesn’t cut  or stutter.

that night when it wouldn’t start after sitting for a little,  I decided to pull the plugs while it wasn’t starting and test them, all sparked beautifully. 

put them back in starts up perfect.
somethibg to do with the fuel flow and/or electric flow…
 

HES is maybe 25,000 miles old ive replaced that with the new one. It’s gotta be some kinda electrical/computer thing. Or maybe the filter has clogged early, maybe the hose has leak, maybe the new pump is faulting/shorting….who knows.

 

oh yeah;  when it dies and I cycle it off and on, I always hear the fuel pump, so that seems to be working, but maybe not. Maybe it cycles but it’s not getting the “pump it” signal on start up? And the signal cuts while semi warm?? Shrug


there just doesn’t seem like an easy way to check these things because it happens randomly and disappears 

 

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19 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I highjacked someone with a similar sounding issues post, so here it is again.

I prefer a forum like this, make your own post. 
some forums get on you like, there’s a search button you cork sucker..

This is much better, start a post and give your story.

 

2004 R1100S twin spark 78,500


I’ve recently been having more and more of this. I AM back on the af xied module, it runs noticeably smoother with it.

I only went back after I had this same cut out issue happen twice, the same way, when I ran it stock O2 sensor for several tanks of gas. figured, it’s not the module. 
starts up fine but on the highway, on a backroad, it’s happened all over, running fine and it just dies, like a switch, power is on but bike dies, then won’t crank back for a few minutes but then it starts normal and goes normal. 
last night it did it leaving work. And wouldn’t start for 30 minutes then it started made it 70 feet and died again. Then wouldn’t start for another 30 minutes or so, then cranked right up and rode off. It may have stuttered slightly at one point on the way. 
 it’s just like the fuel is cut.

im cycling they key over and over when I’m trying to get it started, on and off, couple times, bunch of times all of the above. 

 

current fuel pump and filter have less than 15,000 miles on them, hoses are all new. After last night I got in there and replaced the pressure regulator, thinking, I HAVNT changed this, maybe it’s causing a bubble or loss of pressure… but same thing happened out for lunch today, luckily it started after 5 minutes. 
 

ive also felt it stutter too here and there, like gas is cut and back, doesn’t quite die, keeps going.

ive noticed it usually only happens in the later side of the warm up time frame, like the engine is not cold but not fully warm. 
today at lunch, as well as the other day before trying to go fishing, bike had been stopped for about an hour not fully cold but still warm, try to start and it won’t start. Made me wonder if it’s some kinda temp sensor or something, something is faulting. As it doesn’t happen when on the cold part of warm up, and once it’s warm it doesn’t cut  or stutter.

that night when it wouldn’t start after sitting for a little,  I decided to pull the plugs while it wasn’t starting and test them, all sparked beautifully. 

put them back in starts up perfect.
somethibg to do with the fuel flow and/or electric flow…
 

HES is maybe 25,000 miles old ive replaced that with the new one. It’s gotta be some kinda electrical/computer thing. Or maybe the filter has clogged early, maybe the hose has leak, maybe the new pump is faulting/shorting….who knows.

 

oh yeah;  when it dies and I cycle it off and on, I always hear the fuel pump, so that seems to be working, but maybe not. Maybe it cycles but it’s not getting the “pump it” signal on start up? And the signal cuts while semi warm?? Shrug


there just doesn’t seem like an easy way to check these things because it happens randomly and disappears 

 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

It could be one or more of many things. 

 

My first suggestion is to completely disconnect the af-xied just to get it out of the system so diagnosis can be made without it's interference. 

 

Next, I recommend that your run a fuel return-hose flow test (on a warmish motorcycle if possible).

 

Have you verified that your fuel tank vent is open & allowing in make-up air?  (or try opening the fuel filler cap when the problem is happening)

 

If all looks good per above then maybe look at the little (very fine mesh) filter in the top of the fuel injectors.  

 

You also can't count out a problem with the o2 sensor as that is used in both your riding scenarios__ o2 only & af-xied. So if you just can't find anything else then try riding with the o2 sensor completely disconnected. (kind of a longshot but definitely possible)

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Hadabadachada

I’ll disconnect it again and wait for instructions 

I just remembered the cut out issue still happened and the bike wasn’t as smooth so I went in and reconnected. Bike ran smoother, and still has cut outs.

 

Shortly after I changed the fuel pump/filter, I bought the gauge and ran the test, it flowed whatever the 1L measure thing was, I remember doing it into a measurement bowl and it being on point. Pressure was good too. 
 

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3 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I’ll disconnect it again and wait for instructions 

I just remembered the cut out issue still happened and the bike wasn’t as smooth so I went in and reconnected. Bike ran smoother, and still has cut outs.

 

Shortly after I changed the fuel pump/filter, I bought the gauge and ran the test, it flowed whatever the 1L measure thing was, I remember doing it into a measurement bowl and it being on point. Pressure was good too. 
 

I added more to the above as I was in process & got interrupted.  

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Hadabadachada

I tried opening the tank last night when it wasn’t starting, I was trying to think of anything, still no start. Figured not a vacuum thing. I remember checking both of those hoses when I changed the pump, just to see if there was a clog. I’ll check the injectors, I’d didn’t give them a good look last night.



 

 

 

 

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Hadabadachada

Alright, two days on from the almost tow. 
 

Swapped the pressure regulator that night since I hadn’t done that part of the system yet. Didn’t change anything 

 

 I’ve had the bike start up and ride fine to work, start up after, ride 2-3 miles, dies, I have a video of that. Pulled over, cycled on and off 3 times to make sure I heard the fuel pump, heard it, cranked right up, rode fine.

ride home a few hours later, no issues…THOUGH, when I stopped at the market and came back out, turned key, pump noise is a little funky almost, little louder, maybe “rougher” started and rode home tho. 

this morning start up start riding to work, sounded normal, 2 miles from home, dies, sketch road no shoulder. Made it to the gas station, cycled on and off a few times, started, made a u turn, dies again, sat for a minute cycled on and off, few no starts, then it started and made it to work.

 

need to get in the tank and check the hoses and connections. No real way to test the pump to see if it’s intermittent with the randomness. 
but I’m kinda thinking it may be….

or a short/glitch in the ECU or something.

 

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40 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Alright, two days on from the almost tow. 
 

Swapped the pressure regulator that night since I hadn’t done that part of the system yet. Didn’t change anything 

 

 I’ve had the bike start up and ride fine to work, start up after, ride 2-3 miles, dies, I have a video of that. Pulled over, cycled on and off 3 times to make sure I heard the fuel pump, heard it, cranked right up, rode fine.

ride home a few hours later, no issues…THOUGH, when I stopped at the market and came back out, turned key, pump noise is a little funky almost, little louder, maybe “rougher” started and rode home tho. 

this morning start up start riding to work, sounded normal, 2 miles from home, dies, sketch road no shoulder. Made it to the gas station, cycled on and off a few times, started, made a u turn, dies again, sat for a minute cycled on and off, few no starts, then it started and made it to work.

 

need to get in the tank and check the hoses and connections. No real way to test the pump to see if it’s intermittent with the randomness. 
but I’m kinda thinking it may be….

or a short/glitch in the ECU or something.

 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

It sounds like it is getting serious. 

 

What is the tachometer showing just before, during, & after the engine stall (this could tell us something). What is the tachometer showing during engine cranking right after the stall? 

 

You might try replacing a few of the key fuses in the fuse box as occasionally a fuse can have a crack in the filament that opens & closes due to heat or vibration.

 

What I typically do in cases like yours (I have seen a few act somewhat like you are dealing with) is to install a 12v panel light or similar. With one connected to a fuel injector green wire & ground, one connected to the main coil green wire & ground, & one connected to the fuel pump 12v supply at the fuel pump pigtail connector & ground. If you have separate load relief relay for the upper coils (L/H end of center row in the fuse box) then adding a 12v monitoring light to that circuit also might be a good idea.  

 

Depending what light quits then at least you will know what part of your fuel or ignition system to focus on.   

 

I believe that you mentioned something about a new fuel pump? If so was your problem there before the new fuel pump?  I have seen a few pumps that the pump's plastic impeller would heat then spin free on the armature shaft, then after the pump cooled down a bit the impeller would grip the armature shaft again so the engine would then re-start. 

 

Also, when you go into the tank look closely at the pump intake sock on the fuel pickup, if it is brown replace it, if it looks flattened then also replace it. In certain cases those intake socks can suck down flat (like a collapsing soda straw) therefore stopping the fuel flow. Let it sit for a while & the sock can open up just enough to allow engine re-start.

 

 

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Hadabadachada

tach is working normal as far as I can tell, just watched the video of it cutting, tach is acting normal, cuts, it drops, when it starts it’s normal, no bouncing around or anything.

 

all that wiring sounds involved, I’ll have to break it down and see what I do after I pull the tank apart. 
Will check to see if any hoses are cracked tho they are all brand new. , check all the wires make sure there aren’t any exposed or anything. As well as the strainer. Hoping it’s one of these things. If not maybe I’ll order a new pump. After going through the EME pump issue I had, I’m starting to doubt this quantum pump, who knows, weird shit. Guess I better give myself an extra 10-20 minutes every ride incase I have to sit for awhile.

 

gotta take it easy on the cranking, the other night the battery got pretty drained, probably not the same anymore.

 

 

 

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Hadabadachada

Over the last couple days the bike has started and run with no issues except once two days ago. Went to store turned off came out, wouldn’t start for like 20 minutes then started up and ran fine, no cut outs since then the last two days.

 

I went through my Fuelly records and saw that I was having cold starting issues for a bit before I changed my pump, then continued to have cold start issues for a bit then my reporting it kinda stopped. 

tho it never actually cut out while running like it’s been doing lately. it was only hard cold starting, then it would just start and run fine.
 

so maybe it’s not to do with fuel pump?

 

I just started wondering, could it be maybe a kickstand kill switch? 


any way I can bypass that or just disconnect it to give it a whirl?
 

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Hadabadachada

Maybe not. One of the times it died I was coming up to a red slowing down and pulled the clutch in and it died.
I can’t recall if I was in gear or not though. 
All other times I’m definitely in gear and riding. 

so, maybe? 
well then again, after it dies it’s usually hard to start and all the starting attempts are done in neutral, so maybe not. Side stand kill is just for when it’s in gear and the stand is down right?

so maybe not…
maybe I can just pull it off and clean it up anyway.

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10 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Maybe not. One of the times it died I was coming up to a red slowing down and pulled the clutch in and it died.
I can’t recall if I was in gear or not though. 
All other times I’m definitely in gear and riding. 

so, maybe? 
well then again, after it dies it’s usually hard to start and all the starting attempts are done in neutral, so maybe not. Side stand kill is just for when it’s in gear and the stand is down right?

so maybe not…
maybe I can just pull it off and clean it up anyway.

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

The side stand switch wire colors change at the switch pigtail connector. So on the side stand switch side of the connector just jump the brown wire to the red wire (that by-passes the side stand switch). Caution as it will then start in gear with the clutch engaged)

 

You might try__ With engine running in gear (rear wheel off the ground)   try moving the side stand down while looking at  dash & gauges, the do the same with engine running in gear & clutch lever pulled in. See if dash matches the same as when it did when the problem is happening. 

 

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Hadabadachada

How can I test the Hall effect sensor?

My current one I replaced like 35,000 miles ago to what looked like the heavier duty one, but maybe? 
 

 

I took the tank apart today, everything looked fine, hoses connections wires. 
Only thing that looked off was the little piece of fuel hose, I think it’s the supply, the left one, the lower one. That was all cracked, kinda looked like maybe expanded. It wasn’t the metal lined hose it was some cheaper stuff. But the return hose looked fine, kinda interesting. 
Not sure what to think about that.

 

changed those hoses to proper metal lined stuff I had, put back together took bike in a nice 45 minute ride, fueled up, no issues felt great.

now, about to go meet some people, starts up, makes it like a half mile, dies. Almost wants to start.

I click the kill switch rather than the ignition, I hear the pump. Nothing.

 

earlier I tried to make the bottom fuel hose, the sender I’m pretty sure, accessible, to disconnect if it happens again, it did, so I did. 
Quick disconnected, it’s practically dry, no squirt no nothing. So then I turned the bike on, I hear the pump, I crank the engine, nothing.

now I think the quick disconnect has a block and I didn’t push anything in, but the fact that there were only a couple of drops when I disconnected tells something.

not exactly sure what but something.

 

guess I’m gonna to swap the pump. 
 

I mean, isn’t that sound when you turn the key the fuel pump priming the lines to get things ready? Should be fuel in the lines I thought. 

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12 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

How can I test the Hall effect sensor?

My current one I replaced like 35,000 miles ago to what looked like the heavier duty one, but maybe? 
 

 

I took the tank apart today, everything looked fine, hoses connections wires. 
Only thing that looked off was the little piece of fuel hose, I think it’s the supply, the left one, the lower one. That was all cracked, kinda looked like maybe expanded. It wasn’t the metal lined hose it was some cheaper stuff. But the return hose looked fine, kinda interesting. 
Not sure what to think about that.

 

changed those hoses to proper metal lined stuff I had, put back together took bike in a nice 45 minute ride, fueled up, no issues felt great.

now, about to go meet some people, starts up, makes it like a half mile, dies. Almost wants to start.

I click the kill switch rather than the ignition, I hear the pump. Nothing.

 

earlier I tried to make the bottom fuel hose, the sender I’m pretty sure, accessible, to disconnect if it happens again, it did, so I did. 
Quick disconnected, it’s practically dry, no squirt no nothing. So then I turned the bike on, I hear the pump, I crank the engine, nothing.

now I think the quick disconnect has a block and I didn’t push anything in, but the fact that there were only a couple of drops when I disconnected tells something.

not exactly sure what but something.

 

guess I’m gonna to swap the pump. 
 

I mean, isn’t that sound when you turn the key the fuel pump priming the lines to get things ready? Should be fuel in the lines I thought. 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

You can sort of test the HES with a homemade tester & strip of metal  but that pretty well just tests each sensor's ability to trigger. It doesn't tell you if each sensor actually puts out a usable signal with the timing cup spinning. 

 

You can also get some idea if the HES is working by tuning the crankshaft with the key ON while listening for the fuel pump to turn on & off as the timing windows in the timing cup pass through the sensor. 

 

Problem is: the HES itself seldom goes bad or fails, it is the wiring harness between the HES & the Motronic that has issues causing erratic input into the Motronic. (the 1150 HES causes a lot less problems than the earlier 1100 HES) 

 

Another way (sort of anyhow) is to look a the tachometer with engine cranking or running. If it is acting erratic & crazy that is a sign the HES has problems. Of, with JUST the key ON (engine not running) if the tachometer is acting erratically that can tell you that the HES wiring is cross talking (the usual cause of HES failure)

 

On the quick disconnects, you will either need to hold the internal check valve open on the supply line  pressure side or the return hose (pressure regulator side) to see any fuel flow as the check valves close off the flow as soon as they are disconnected. Or better yet, use another quick disconnect that fits your motorcycles existing quick disconnect with a piece of hose on that extra disconnect, Then just plug that into your existing quick disconnect then look for fuel flow out of the hose.      

 

When the key is turned ON you should get about 2 seconds of fuel flow then pump shuts off, it will probably do this for one or two tries then you might have to wait a while before you can get that 2 second pump run again at key-ON.

 

The pump should run all the time during engine cranking or with engine running.  

 

The ABS servo motors can also run & sound somewhat like a fuel pump so do not touch the brake lever or brake pedal when listening for the fuel pump.  

 

The return hose inside the tank doesn't carry any pressure so a bad return hose inside the tank won't cause a no run condition. If the return hose is plugged or restricted the engine will usually start OK & still run (somewhat)  but it will run pretty darn rich due to excessively high fuel pressure.

 

I'm not sure what you used for the in-tank pressure hose but it needs to a SAE 30R10  (submerged) rated. You also need to use the correct hose clamps as improper hose, or improper clamps, can allow the pressure hose to come off it fitting then you totally lose fuel pressure & flow.  

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Hadabadachada

So as I sit here on the side of the road once again, within 2 miles of a cold start probably less than that, is when it typically happens. Bike dies. Now I’m trying to on off it a million times and wait for it to start up again, it always happens at this distance/temp.

 

What’s happened since the last time.

 

the bike stopped, checked the hose, only couple of drops, think I’m gonna swap pumps, I did. 
 

bike started right up fine and ran fine for several times….

 

 

bike just started up again, I’m on the side, I’ll be back to finish,,,

 

 

image.jpg

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Hadabadachada

Okay, made it.

so, last time I was on here it seemed like the pump wasn’t working and the line was dry. It finally started, made it home, but it died twice on the way, luckily it started fast.

 

pulled the pump and swapped it Wednesday night. Bike started up and rode fine Thursday start and 6 miles to work, start and went downtown and back about 35 miles with a couple cold starts, no issues, Friday morning to work no issues, after work to coconut grove 10 miles no issues, leave the grove, bike dies within two miles of the cold start, luckily it started right back and made it home. Saturday started went to work no issue, ripped apart at work didn’t go in the tank but looked all around for kinked/stripped/loose wires. Nothing stood out. Gave the relays a look, and rigged the lids so I could remove them, easy…
put tank on and rode it to get gas a mile or so, pumped gas, go to leave, bike wouldn’t start.

plastics are off so I pulled the fuel lines, there was gas going, on and offed it for a couple minutes, nothing, tried again, no start, left it on wiggled wires from the right hand grip, bike starts right up…..

hmmmm, maybe it’s a wire. 
go back, look around again forever, nothing obvious. 
 

Left work and went home, no issues, cold started it a few hours later and rode downtown. 25 miles, no issues. Started it up a few hours later, leave, within 2 miles it dies. Pull over. Took an hour of trying till it started, took off, the next mile was stuttering weird fuel issue, dies again. 
I reach in now that I can, and swap the fuel pump and motronic relays around, bike starts right up and we go make it home. 
hmmmm a relay

so now today, start up bike rides fine out to the grove. Leave there, downtown, no issues, leave wynwood, cold start, go, within 2 miles it dies. Always dies the same time/temp 

I’m getting relatively lucky all these times. A couple of them I had to get off and push onto a sidewalk across an intersection but not too bad.

bike starts after about 15-20 minutes this time, leave there it stutters once, and then dies again a little down the road, but starts back thankfully. 
make it home and I don’t really feel like riding this thing anymore.

I ordered new relays but I don’t know if that’s it now either. 
Everytime I do something that seems promising it’s like, nope not that. 
 

I just need to know more about how to work on bikes and need more tools. 

 

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Morning  Hadabadachada

 

I would  bet that you are getting tired of chasing this. 

 

Sooner or later you are probably going to have to rig up some test lights to see what is actually failing when it stalls & won't restart as you can only guess at it so many times before you get totally frustrated.  

 

Your problem seems to be time or time/temperature related. So that somewhat limits what it could be. This doesn't typically point to a relay as those usually work or fail but are not predictably time/temperature sensitive. 

 

Unless you can tell what part of your system is actually shutting down (fuel/ electrical/ electronics) then you are back to guessing (hopefully at least educated guessing) 

 

The o2 sensor is one on those things that can cause an engine stall after about the same time frame that you are seeing the stall. It typically doesn't prevent a restart but that isn't cast in stone as it could prevent a restart until it cools off under the correct stack up. 

 

So try riding a few days with the o2 sensor disconnected as a test. There are circumstances that a failing o2 sensor can give you an engine stall after about the time frame that you seem to be stalling. 

 

You don't have any part of an aftermarket fuel controller (like a Techlusion or AF-XiED) hooked up do you, if so that needs to be completely disconnected. 

 

You can't keep guessing at your fuel flow stopping buy looking at the fuel in the quick disconnects. You need to set something up so you can POSITIVLY  verify enough fuel flow at enough pressure to run your engine. (so either put a tee with a hose & shut-off valve in your fuel return line or carry a piece of hose with a part of a quick disconnect that will quickly plug into your rear fuel return hose. Fuel ACTUALLY flowing out of the rear fuel return hose in a stream when the fuel pump runs is a good positive test. 

 

Another thing to quickly try (after the stall & no restart) is to remove your Motronics fuse (probably fuse # 4 or fuse #1   (depends on your 1100S fuse box set up) for about 2 minutes, then reinstall the fuse, turn key on, then do a throttle-twist TPS relearn, THEN see if it will start. (this might tell us something if it then starts). This resets the Motronic. 

 

Years ago I worked with a rider (similar to your problems as it shutdown a few miles after a cold start then took a long time to get a re-start), we tested & monitored everything (well he did with my guidance anyhow) & nothing smoking-gun-wise showed up.   Finally, when about everything was tested & vetted without finding anything I talked him into buying a used Motronic on E-Bay as a last ditch stab at it.  He didn't want to do it but I sort of convinced him that even if it didn't cure the stalling/no restart issue that at least he would have a spare Motronic if he ever needed it. 

 

After he installed the good used Motronic I didn't hear from him for a while (we were talking every other day of so before), he finally contacted me that his stalling no-quick-restart problem was gone. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hadabadachada

used motronic, that’s what I was thinking last night after all this stuff.


I forgot to mention that I unhooked the O2 that day it died at the gas station.

I Started up with no O2 hooked up, ran fine to the station, filled up, wouldn’t start. 
I said, guess it’s not the O2. I’ve also run it on stock O2, had it happen like that a couple of times, and at this point have just let it run on the xied thinger. 
when I go into the tank again today to change the fuel pump back ( as this new one I put in tends to make loud noise after it runs for awhile through stop and go) (maybe that’s a sign of something too, who knows) gonna go back to the other fuel pump that I replaced, since it’s not that, and also put my last new fuel filter in, should I leave the O2 unhooked or just run it stock O2? 
 

I’ll look into the connections you mentioned to try and get a read on what’s going on.

 

think the gs911 would shed any light? If I carried around a laptop with me and hooked up when it happens?

 

I tried scouring around the ecu, all the wires and connections, looking for something not right and just keep thinking, it’s gotta be in the computer, randomness.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

used motronic, that’s what I was thinking last night after all this stuff.


I forgot to mention that I unhooked the O2 that day it died at the gas station.

I Started up with no O2 hooked up, ran fine to the station, filled up, wouldn’t start. 
I said, guess it’s not the O2. I’ve also run it on stock O2, had it happen like that a couple of times, and at this point have just let it run on the xied thinger. 
when I go into the tank again today to change the fuel pump back ( as this new one I put in tends to make loud noise after it runs for awhile through stop and go) (maybe that’s a sign of something too, who knows) gonna go back to the other fuel pump that I replaced, since it’s not that, and also put my last new fuel filter in, should I leave the O2 unhooked or just run it stock O2? 
 

I’ll look into the connections you mentioned to try and get a read on what’s going on.

 

think the gs911 would shed any light? If I carried around a laptop with me and hooked up when it happens?

 

I tried scouring around the ecu, all the wires and connections, looking for something not right and just keep thinking, it’s gotta be in the computer, randomness.

 

 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

If I was working with that motorcycle the first thing  I would do is (COMPLETELY) disconnect & remove  the AF-XiED, everything involving the AF-XiED & it's wiring. 

 

It might not be the problem but it sure could effect the problem so it needs to be completely removed until you can figure this thing out & it stays running for a few weeks in a row.   

 

A GS-911 won't tell you much on a Ma 2.4 1100S. Pretty darn limited. 

 

Once the AF-XiED is removed you can try running with the o2 disconnected  if the problem is still there. 

 

Also, next time the problem happens try removing the Motronic fuse for 2 minutes.  

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Hadabadachada

Will try and pull the fuse. I think it’s fuse 1 from that funny little mini fuse box. 
I saved this photo from the last time you got me the info 

It’s that little mini box tucked under the left front fairing on my 04

 

thanks again

 

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2 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Will try and pull the fuse. I think it’s fuse 1 from that funny little mini fuse box. 
I saved this photo from the last time you got me the info 

It’s that little mini box tucked under the left front fairing on my 04

 

thanks again

 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

You need to kind of verify that as the later 1100S seems to have used both the early fuse box set up & the later European style fuse box's set up.

 

I worked with an 1100S rider a while back that had the incorrect fuse box label that actually didn't match his bike's actual fuse layout. (drove us nuts until we figured that one out)

 

Try removing a couple of known fuses that you can verify (like lights or horn) to see if your label matches your actual fuse layout. 

 

Do you have the single 8 cavity or the (2)  4 cavity fuse box (one on each side) ?

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Hadabadachada

I can verify the fuse layout is correct, checked hi beams and instrument lights.

 

if it dies tomorrow I will pull #1 for 5 minutes or so and see.

 

left bike at home this morning but took it out this evening for a quick 15 mile jaunt in traffic. Did not die or do anything odd…

 

aside from the new fuel pump I put in, starts up quiet, but after you do 5-10 minutes in stop and go city traffic, it gets super loud like the eme pumps I’ve had. 
I don’t know if the bike is somehow doing that to the pumps or the pumps are just cheap crap.

 

I want to see if maybe someone can rebuild my old OEM pump or something. Pricey item used or new. 
 

didn’t pull bike apart after work, may try tomorrow to swap pumps and filters and hook up stock O2 we’ll see
 

 

E8552F25-5367-4E7F-B3D0-3669E7661B2C.jpeg

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9 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

I can verify the fuse layout is correct, checked hi beams and instrument lights.

 

if it dies tomorrow I will pull #1 for 5 minutes or so and see.

 

left bike at home this morning but took it out this evening for a quick 15 mile jaunt in traffic. Did not die or do anything odd…

 

aside from the new fuel pump I put in, starts up quiet, but after you do 5-10 minutes in stop and go city traffic, it gets super loud like the eme pumps I’ve had. 
I don’t know if the bike is somehow doing that to the pumps or the pumps are just cheap crap.

 

I want to see if maybe someone can rebuild my old OEM pump or something. Pricey item used or new. 
 

didn’t pull bike apart after work, may try tomorrow to swap pumps and filters and hook up stock O2 we’ll see
 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

I haven' heard of anybody rebuilding motorcycle fuel pumps, not much market for a rebuilt pump when you can buy a new aftermarket for $100.00 +/-.  Even if someone could/would rebuild the stock pump they would probably have to use aftermarket parts.  

 

Are you sure that it is the pump itself making the noise & not the pump just grounding out, or touching something inside the tank due to a missing or worn pump isolator, or the pump's position in the holder? A pump that is grounding out to the tank or pump holder can be very noisy in operation. 

 

You really should stop changing things like pumps, filters, or hooking up up the o2 sensor until you ride it a week or two in it's current  condition to see if your stalling is gone. Every time you change something then you need to start over as far as what effect it could have on your stalling. 

 

Get it to stay running first, THEN change only one thing at a time, then give that change a few rides to verify what that change effects in regards to engine stalling/restarting. 

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Hadabadachada

I know it’s for a short time just to see what may be cutting out, but how do you suggest I wire a little led panel light in? Plastic Quick splice connector thing?
I’ve never cut into any wires on a bike before; I gotta pop this cherry. 

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10 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

I know it’s for a short time just to see what may be cutting out, but how do you suggest I wire a little led panel light in? Plastic Quick splice connector thing?
I’ve never cut into any wires on a bike before; I gotta pop this cherry. 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

I seldom if ever actually cut into or splice into circuit wire. 

 

I can usually find an old terminal in my wire terminal collection that is either small enough or  can be trimmed narrower or thinner to slide into the back of the connector I want to put a panel test light on.  I have even flattened a small solid copper wire with a hammer to slide in the rear of a connector.    

 

One of my favorites for connecting to non-sealed connectors is to use a Packard 56 male terminal that is trimmed to be narrower. This can then be slid into the rear of a connector between the existing terminal & the connector body. 

 

Depending on the situation you need to be creative. 

 

NDWMHcP.jpg

 

 

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If you decide to use solid copper beat down flat, just go to your favorite hardware store and buy a couple of feet of Romex. It is well insulated, good copper, and flexible enough. I would not cut into the harness. 

  • Like 2
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Hadabadachada
On 3/3/2023 at 10:46 AM, dirtrider said:

 

 

What I typically do in cases like yours (I have seen a few act somewhat like you are dealing with) is to install a 12v panel light or similar. With one connected to a fuel injector green wire & ground, one connected to the main coil green wire & ground, & one connected to the fuel pump 12v supply at the fuel pump pigtail connector & ground. If you have separate load relief relay for the upper coils (L/H end of center row in the fuse box) then adding a 12v monitoring light to that circuit also might be a good idea.  

 

So I hooked a light to one of the injectors which is active. I’m sure the fuel pump shouldn’t be an Issue, easily accessible , but, Trying to wire one to one of the coils…
you say, to the main coil. since this is a twin spark bike, are you talking about the box under the gas tank that runs the bottom plugs? Or just wire into one of the side coils? 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

So I hooked a light to one of the injectors which is active. I’m sure the fuel pump shouldn’t be an Issue, easily accessible , but, Trying to wire one to one of the coils…
you say, to the main coil. since this is a twin spark bike, are you talking about the box under the gas tank that runs the bottom plugs? Or just wire into one of the side coils? 

 

 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Eventually you want to hook to both the lower coil (main coil) & one of the upper (stick) coils. 

 

Hooking to an upper (stick coil) is difficult without a little break-out harness that goes between the stick coil & the harness connector as the stick coil connector uses small difficult to access terminals.    Or if you are real carful you can probably slide a very thin terminal or thing wire into the back of the stick coil connector.

 

On a warm engine it would probably re-start if given some extra throttle while cranking if either the lowers or uppers were not working as long as one set is working. It won't run very good on just the uppers or just the lowers but it should run given enough throttle.   

 

Another thing you might consider is to carry a NOID light with you, if you have a stall with no re-start then quickly plug that NOID light into one of your fuel injector connectors then crank the engine & look for an injection pulse. If no flashing NOID light during engine cranking then your Motronic is not producing an injection pulse. OR there is no 12v B+ going to the fuel injectors (the lack of 12v B+ you can catch with your panel light monitoring)

 

 

 

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Hadabadachada

Would hooking to a stick coil still give me the same information I’m looking for?

 

all this coil talk makes me think, since I’ve had to replace the sticks quite awhile ago for going bad; maybe the main is having issues.

 

since Wednesday when I hooked up stock O2, I ran it Thursday to and from work with no issues at all, then Friday, less than 2 miles from home, it stuttered, then it died. Was able to just hit the starter without turning the power off, and it started back up and was fine the rest of the short ride.

 

few hours later I cold started it to go to the store like a mile away, got there fine, came back out after maybe 5 minutes, went to start, nothing, tried a few more times before I pulled the fuse. Pulled it, set for 5 minutes, hooked back up, did the throttle deal; started right up. Don’t know if the fuse thing really did something since it was the first time.

few hours later I left work early, within the first 2 miles, it died. Was able to start back up and get home fine.

yeaterday, Saturday, to and from work no issues..

 

hooked up some lights to the fuel pump, the fuel injector and the stick coil last night. 
have taken the bike out three times on a cold start for 5 miles each time with no issues so far…..

lots of fun

 

kinda sucks having to choose my route from or to home, just so I have a chance to pull off with no issues if it might die. There’s already been a few hairy situations trying to get to the side before I run out of momentum in moving traffic. 

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Morning Hadabadachada

 

Would hooking to a stick coil still give me the same information I’m looking for?-- Possibly, depends on the hookup, if you re ONLY hooking to the 12v B+ into the stick coil then that is ALL you will be testing for. That will NOT tell you if the stick coil itself is bad or IF the trigger side from the Motronic  is the problem. 

 

all this coil talk makes me think, since I’ve had to replace the sticks quite awhile ago for going bad; maybe the main is having issues.-- A bad stick coil usually doesn't act like the problem that you currently have. Even if both fail then you can get a stall as you approach idle but you should get a re-start if you give it enough throttle as it should re-start on just the lowers. It should also be somewhat rideable on just the lowers, not great but as long as you don't let it drop to a slow idle it should be ridable. 

 

since Wednesday when I hooked up stock O2, I ran it Thursday to and from work with no issues at all, then Friday, less than 2 miles from home, it stuttered, then it died. Was able to just hit the starter without turning the power off, and it started back up and was fine the rest of the short ride.-- Personally I would keep the o2 sensor & AF-XiED unhooked until you get 100% reliability for about a week straight.  Bad or incorrect o2 input could be part or all of your issue. QUIT changing things UNTIL you have a solid week of reliability. 

 

few hours later I cold started it to go to the store like a mile away, got there fine, came back out after maybe 5 minutes, went to start, nothing, tried a few more times before I pulled the fuse. Pulled it, set for 5 minutes, hooked back up, did the throttle deal; started right up. Don’t know if the fuse thing really did something since it was the first time.--- If your Motronic fueling control was messed up due to a faulty o2 input then removing the Motoric fuse would have allowed the Motronic to clear it's scrambled fueling adaptives.   This is something to work with, if you can equate a good re-start & decent ride off after a stall/no-restart condition by removing the Motronic fuse then THAT can give us a direction to look in.   

 

few hours later I left work early, within the first 2 miles, it died. Was able to start back up and get home fine.

yeaterday, Saturday, to and from work no issues..--- This makes troubleshooting the problem more difficult.

 

hooked up some lights to the fuel pump, the fuel injector and the stick coil last night. 
have taken the bike out three times on a cold start for 5 miles each time with no issues so far…..

lots of fun---  Hopefully the test lights will tell us something if/when next stall/ no-restart happens.

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8 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

Did we ever rule out the side stand switch and the kill switch?

Afternoon Jim

 

He hasn't officially said so but it seems to crank over OK so that pretty well answers that question & the reason I didn't peruse it farther.  

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Hadabadachada

I guess honestly, I haven’t ruled anything out since it happens sporadically.

 

I’ve fiddled with the kill switch when the bike dies and otherwise, that doesn’t seem to be the issue.

the kickstand switch a little tougher, but it doesn’t seem to be the issue either, the way it’ll stutter sometimes and not die, other times it just dies.

seems more like a fuel/spark thing.

 

im pretty much just going off anything dirt rider tells me at this point.

keeping tabs on how much I’ll owe him when we get to the bottom of this!
 

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28 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I guess honestly, I haven’t ruled anything out since it happens sporadically.

 

I’ve fiddled with the kill switch when the bike dies and otherwise, that doesn’t seem to be the issue.

the kickstand switch a little tougher, but it doesn’t seem to be the issue either, the way it’ll stutter sometimes and not die, other times it just dies.

seems more like a fuel/spark thing.

 

im pretty much just going off anything dirt rider tells me at this point.

keeping tabs on how much I’ll owe him when we get to the bottom of this!
 

Evening Hadabadachada.

 

 

I guess honestly, I haven’t ruled anything out since it happens sporadically--  First rule of troubleshooting__  "When in doubt rule it out".

 

Turn the kill switch to off then see if it cranks & acts the same as your failure acts.

 

Put the side stand down then see if it cranks & acts the same as your failure acts.

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Maybe wait until it fails again, then put the sidestand up and down with the bike in gear. If the sidestand switch is working you'll hear the fuel pump prime when it goes up. Same with the kill switch.

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Hadabadachada

Based on that, I can say that the kill switch works fine, and I’ll check the kickstand switch because I can’t recall if I’ve done anything with the kickstand when it’s not starting. 
 

when it dies, I pull over, and when it fails to start for awhile, I’m hitting the kill switch and/or ignition switch on off on off on off, each cycle, I always hear the fuel pump cycle. 
 

I’ll try and post some videos of different instances, on YouTube and link the channel, see if that might give any info. 
 

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12 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Based on that, I can say that the kill switch works fine, and I’ll check the kickstand switch because I can’t recall if I’ve done anything with the kickstand when it’s not starting. 
 

when it dies, I pull over, and when it fails to start for awhile, I’m hitting the kill switch and/or ignition switch on off on off on off, each cycle, I always hear the fuel pump cycle. 
 

I’ll try and post some videos of different instances, on YouTube and link the channel, see if that might give any info. 
 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Test & verify everything, but if you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds at key on then that means the Motronic is powering up. If the Motronic is powering up then the the side stand switch shouldn't be the issue.

 

For the Motronic to power up then the side stand switch is working (with stand-up), or the side stand switch  in conjunction with the  transmission neutral switch in neutral (stand-down). Side stand down with transmission in gear then you shouldn't hear the pump run at key-on. 

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Hadabadachada

Verified. 

will be back on the bike again for normal use now that the  bad weather has passed. 
been riding around with all plastics removed to make it easier to get at things. So haven’t ridden normally in a few days to keep things dry. Just a few quick rides through the neighborhood. 

 

Unhooked O2, when I was under there hooking lights to things.
One of the last times you mentioned it, I took it as, unhook the module and run stock O2, O2 is unhooked completely now. Will be keeping an eye on the lights and see if it can clue me in.

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20 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Verified. 

will be back on the bike again for normal use now that the  bad weather has passed. 
been riding around with all plastics removed to make it easier to get at things. So haven’t ridden normally in a few days to keep things dry. Just a few quick rides through the neighborhood. 

 

Unhooked O2, when I was under there hooking lights to things.
One of the last times you mentioned it, I took it as, unhook the module and run stock O2, O2 is unhooked completely now. Will be keeping an eye on the lights and see if it can clue me in.

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Probably a good place to start,   both o2 sensor & AF-XiED disconnected.  Then ride it for while that way.

 

I you still have issues with the o2 sensor & AF-XiED  disconnected then those are pretty well eliminated so your problem lies elsewhere. 

 

If it runs out OK for a week or two then try re-connecting the o2 sensor (only), it that makes it a week or two without issue then suspect the AF-XiED 

 

 

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Hadabadachada

I think it’s safe to say it’s the O2 sensor. 
since I’ve had it disconnected completely the bike has not died.

vs

Stock O2, dies. Module to O2, dies.

 

it’s been cold started and run enough times at this point to say it’s not going to cut out.

 

Shoulda just unhooked it from the get like doc dirt suggested from the beginning. I was just being lazy and didn’t feel like taking everything apart. Now everything’s apart until I can get a new O2 sensor.

 

im getting close to 80,000 miles 

Can’t remember if I shared this photo a couple months ago.

 

 

 

 

 

22FEDD12-879A-42DA-9E77-D6F259677DE4.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

I think the bike runs better without the O2 sensor. I leave mine disconnected on all my oilheads.

Morning Jim

 

Hadabadachada has an  AF-XiED installed, those don't work correctly without an o2 sensor input. A CORRECTLY functioning  AF-XiED with a correctly working o2 sensor runs so much better than trying to run a twin spark 1150 open loop. 

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Hadabadachada

Okay, well…..

all my last 20 or so rides nothing happened, thought okay, must be O2 sensor then, HA!

 

well this morning going to work it made it like 3 miles and died at the light…huh

no starting. And looking at the lights tells me nothing. They all light when trying to start but it doesn’t turn over. 
granted one is hooked to a side coil and not the main so I dunno about the main.

 

pulled the fuse for probably 3 minutes since I’m on the side of the road, started after but died again and won’t start, waiting 5 minutes now.

 

thought I had the answer obviously not, who knows lol

 

pretty much done with this bike at this point

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Hadabadachada

I guess now it has to be either the main coil or the ECU I dunno

pulled the fuse for 6 minutes, didn’t start, so continued the key on key off shit, then it just cranked right up, rode 300 yards kinda choked stuttered then died again, took another 6 shots and it started, made it back almost home and it died pulling in, managed to start with 3 tries and I’m home.

 

late for work again. 

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37 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

They all light when trying to start but it doesn’t turn over. 

Is this a new condition, or has it not turned over (no starter engagement) before?

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46 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Okay, well…..

all my last 20 or so rides nothing happened, thought okay, must be O2 sensor then, HA!

 

well this morning going to work it made it like 3 miles and died at the light…huh

no starting. And looking at the lights tells me nothing. They all light when trying to start but it doesn’t turn over. 
granted one is hooked to a side coil and not the main so I dunno about the main.

 

pulled the fuse for probably 3 minutes since I’m on the side of the road, started after but died again and won’t start, waiting 5 minutes now.

 

thought I had the answer obviously not, who knows lol

 

pretty much done with this bike at this point

Morning   Hadabadachada

 

That's too bad, I thought you had it solved.

 

If one of the upper coils has 12v (your monitor light is on) that probably says that both sides are powered as they power up from the same 12v source.  It SHOULD start (or at least try to start & stumble along) on just the uppers. 

 

It is sort of pointing a fuel flow issue, or water in the fuel, or  something in the Motronic. 

 

Have you fully drained the fuel tank  & put new fuel in it?  Water can hide down in the lower tank wing then mix with the fuel once you start riding & sloshing the fuel around. Let it sit for a while & the water settles out back to the bottom of the tank allowing a restart. 

 

You might buy a NOID light that fits your fuel injector connector then carry that with you, next time it quits install the NOID light on one of your injector connectors then SEE if it flashes when you crank the engine, if it flashes then the Motronic is commanding fuel injection. 

 

IF you have spark & have an injector command then that pretty well rules out the Motronic, not completely but almost.  

 

 

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Hadabadachada

I have drained the tank a few times at this point, but not 100%. there’s always a little bit left in there, a liter or so, not much I guess. I’ll drain it completely today to rule that out. 

gonna pull the filler cap off today and check the vent hose just to make sure of that too. Did all that hose swap a little over a year ago but let’s circle back.

will check into that NOID light.

 

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Hadabadachada
2 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Is this a new condition, or has it not turned over (no starter engagement) before?

No first started over a year ago as, not cold starting for awhile. Till it finally starts, would only happen once in awhiiiile very rarely. 
Then kinda went away almost. 
now over the last few months it’s been dying within the first few miles after a cold start, maybe 1 out of every 7 starts or do. Pretty well covered in this post, to the best of my story telling ability. 

and the starter engages everytime.

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Hadabadachada

So by the looks of it, the ECU for my bike has the same part number for quite a few others that use the same 2.4 motronic.


but I assume I probably have to look for one from an S as they probably have different tunes for different bikes right? 
GS vs R vs RT etc

 

 

drained tank completely dry last night, and ran a light from the main coil to keep an eye on, also picked up a NOID bulb that seems to fit my connector, now just waiting for the bike to hiccup again to have a look. 
 

also keeping my eyes open for used R1150/R1200 R,RT,RS bikes for a good price. 


(please don’t link me to the one in the classifieds that seems to have the same electrical gremlin as mine lol)

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