Harley down nearly nine thousand in sales for 2022 for the US

[fourteenfour]

world wide they were flat but US sales are down nearly nine thousand units and inventory up by over thirteen thousand.  Worse they no longer can economically produce their own bikes for their rider academy and instead will import bikes from China that are just Harley' badged Benelli models (X350)  Their financial arm set aside 145m for credit losses.

 

[Skywagon]

Im not a Harley rider, but still like to look at them and wish them well.  Afterall, they are truly an American Institution.  If they clocked out at say 550lbs, I would have one.

[Calvin (no socks)]

The demographics have changed.. Post WWII baby boomers were all in love with the bikes. The younger crowd is satisfied with scooters, electric bicycles and crotch rockets for the more daring ... HD lots are full.... Slow down on production to meet demand is the only possible life jacket... Some dealerships here in Florida are HUGE beyond belief.... I have a HD for 500 mile or less days... anything between 500 and 1000 I take the BMW.

[Rinkydink]

I just don’t get the fascination with 1930s technology. I get it, they now have ABS and can include all the bells and whistles but the 45° thing, 3” suspension travel, crappy brakes, ill handling, and farm implement performance is just lost on me. Of course this is America and it’s whatever floats your boat. 

[Hosstage]

1 hour ago, Rinkydink said:

I just don’t get the fascination with 1930s technology. I get it, they now have ABS and can include all the bells and whistles but the 45° thing, 3” suspension travel, crappy brakes, ill handling, and farm implement performance is just lost on me. Of course this is America and it’s whatever floats your boat. 

So you're saying the opposed twin from the 30's is so much more advanced than the V-twin from the 30's?

[TEWKS]

3 1/2 more years is all I need for HD to build up a stockpile of bikes. (Discounts  )I’ve said this for a lot of years now, I’m going to use my sick-time buyback money and drop on a new Ultra Limited when I retire.  We’ll see. 

[Rinkydink]

7 hours ago, Hosstage said:

So you're saying the opposed twin from the 30's is so much more advanced than the V-twin from the 30's?

Not necessarily but they sure make up for it in handling and brakes. My late brother was an HD fanatic. I rode his bikes from the 60s to 2014 and overall I didn’t see much difference from year model to year model. (Except more chrome!) I do know my ‘22 RT is miles ahead of my ‘76 90/6 in every way including the motor. 

[TEWKS]

My experience is with a 92 Ultra Classic (mine) and a demo on last year’s Ultra Limited. The new Harley is refined in every way but it’s still a Harley Davidson. I rented an R 100 RT some years back and my 2014 RT. Anyway IMO, BMW probably surpassed Harley in development just a wee bit. 

[Veefore]

After years on sport bikes and Gold Wings a friend bought an Electra Glide.  After a spirited ride to breakfast one Sunday I asked how it was……flushed and sweaty he said (and I qoute) - “You don’t charge corners, they charge you.”  😂😂

[TEWKS]

I rode out to Lake George on my Harley with a buddy on an older Valkyrie. We swapped bikes for a bit somewhere along the ride. I loved the Valkyrie. It took him months to figure out a nice way to tell me my bike was a piece of shit!  

[Scott9999]

I was recalling the old Honda's I had way back when (CB360 and CB600, if I recall).  I had a blast with those little bikes.  With an aftermarket fairing on the CB600, I felt like I was king of the road.  Then I compared it to my space age 2018 RT, and almost wanted to cry.   I understand nostalgia, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what I liked about those old bikes, back then.   The new(er) RT is unbelievably better in every regards.  

 

Same applies to the old Plymouth Duster I had in high school and college.   My friend back then salivated, and even now, I hear people wistfully speaking wonderful thoughts about it.  I just remember that it handled like a boat, absolute crap, and an intake manifold leak cost me an expensive valve job at 25K miles.   I bought a Camaro as my next car, which I got a deal on 'cause my dad knew the owner of the dealer, and they had a special order on the lot that went sideways.   Upside.  Beautiful car (trying to remember, maybe a 1976, 1978, dunno anymore), albeit with a six cylinder engine.  (The guy who ordered it had intended to pull the engine and transmission out and put in a custom job.)   Unbelievable handling.   And .... being an American car from the '70's, the front rubber dash warped and pulled away from the firewall almost from day one.  The dealership threw some more bolts into it under warranty, but it was deformed/defective, and should have just been replaced.   Anyhow, I flipped that to my sister, who totaled it a year later. 

 

So, yeah,  although there are drawbacks to modern technology, what we have today is still MUCH better than "way back when" - almost true across the board.   I assume that's true of the Harley's as well.

[Hosstage]

HDs are an acquired taste....

Still pretty simple to work on, no valve adjustments needed. Best paint of any brand. Suspension sucks. Loud exhaust optional, though it seems mandatory.

I run a Thunderheader exhaust. It is as loud as the name suggests. It matches my ape hangers.

Yes, I'm that obnoxious dope with hands up to my ears that rips past on a nice day and causes you to say "friggin' a-hole." I'm not above laying down a good burnout bouncing the motor off the rev limiter.

I still have fun doing it!

[TEWKS]

38 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

HDs are an acquired taste....

True, I also rode it down south (my HD) and after a few long days on the slab it felt like home sitting on that bike.  And my buddy really didn’t say it was a POS, he just couldn’t get over how slow (stock) it felt compared to the Valkyrie.

 

edit… In saying that, it will comfortably cruise at 80 MPH all day long.

[Hosstage]

I agree, HDs are not fast, don't handle great, but are certainly set up for long haul cruising.

[Hosstage]

Some of us dopes like to set up our HDs to be much faster than they should be. The new ones have good power from the factory, and with a little work can be made much better. Weight will always be a handicap, but that leads to good stability.

There is no perfect motorcycle.

 

Do not buy a motorcycle from Slow Joe.

 

[TEWKS]

I visited Dudley Perkins many years ago. IIRC, the oldest HD dealership in existence.

[Hosstage]

25 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

I visited Dudley Perkins many years ago. IIRC, the oldest HD dealership in existence.

It was. Sadly it is now closed.

[fourteenfour]

and the newest edition to the Harley line up features this beauty, designed and built in China..

 

[KDeline]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:37 AM, Rinkydink said:

I just don’t get the fascination with 1930s technology. I get it, they now have ABS and can include all the bells and whistles but the 45° thing, 3” suspension travel, crappy brakes, ill handling, and farm implement performance is just lost on me. Of course this is America and it’s whatever floats your boat. 

Funny as I don't get the fascination riding a rolling computer with an Ipad dash. I'm stuck at 2009 RT for as long as I can find them. I can set the valves in minutes with a few tools and no supply of shims. Full 12000 mile service in 4 hours or less. If they started producing the late model airheads again I would buy it in an instant.

[fourteenfour]

2 hours ago, KDeline said:

Funny as I don't get the fascination riding a rolling computer with an Ipad dash. I'm stuck at 2009 RT for as long as I can find them. I can set the valves in minutes with a few tools and no supply of shims. Full 12000 mile service in 4 hours or less. If they started producing the late model airheads again I would buy it in an instant.

 

I was somewhat interested in a few used 2022 RTs I found but after checking with BMW NA they have no plans to allow Apple Car Play on it so I am not even going to bother. Apparently Bosch, who actually makes that system and app, doesn't want the competition and the motorcycle side of BMW can still afford to ignore Apple Car play where the car side had to cave.

[Skywagon]

Interesting… my car has Apple car play and I hate it. I really don’t like what it does to the GPS. I turned it off. What are the things you like about it?  Just curious 

[Hosstage]

From Harley losing sales and ancient technology to Apple car play on BMW technology systems. Thread creep!

Just to get back to the sentiment that Harleys are not good canyon carvers, I offer a rebuttal. As relaxed as any RT running thru the curves...

 

[TEWKS]

That’s some pretty good riding right there.  Speaking of Harley stuff, have you ever been to the York Factory for a walk through? (forget if it ever came up) I’ve been there a couple times, really neat if you like the brand.

[9Mary7]

10 hours ago, Hosstage said:

As relaxed as any RT running thru the curves...

Could just be me but he doesn't look "as relaxed as any RT running thru the curves"...... 

[Hosstage]

4 hours ago, TEWKS said:

That’s some pretty good riding right there.  Speaking of Harley stuff, have you ever been to the York Factory for a walk through? (forget if it ever came up) I’ve been there a couple times, really neat if you like the brand.

Have not been to the factory yet, but friends have and said it's pretty impressive. I've seen shows and vids on it, some innovative assembly techniques going on there.

[JamesW]

I really like the HD Road King at least to look at.  I have never even ridden an HD and I would like to test ride a Road King but it's a little late in my long time riding career and even if I liked the bike I wouldn't consider actually buying one so I'll take a pass.  That said I'm still curious.  Oh, and if I did try one out I'm afraid I might forget what I'm on and try to stuff it into a curve a bit too fast and then where would I be?  Probably up the old creek without the old paddle is where with an RK on top of my old body.  Another issue I have is a lower back problem (disk) and the HD riding position with one's feet outstretched just wouldn't work for me I'm afraid.  This is why the BMW RSL is so comfortable for me.  I could maybe go for the new RS even but it's a little late as in I turn 80 this year so my riding career is nearing an end wether I like it or not and I DON'T like it!  Enough of this negative somewhat depressing babble.

[TEWKS]

Ha, funny. I just googled “old men on Harleys” and almost every picture was somebody younger than me.  Anyway I found one, your beard can’t be longer than this dude’s. 
 

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, JamesW said:

I really like the HD Road King at least to look at.  I have never even ridden an HD and I would like to test ride a Road King but it's a little late in my long time riding career and even if I liked the bike I wouldn't consider actually buying one so I'll take a pass.  That said I'm still curious.  Oh, and if I did try one out I'm afraid I might forget what I'm on and try to stuff it into a curve a bit too fast and then where would I be?  Probably up the old creek without the old paddle is where with an RK on top of my old body.  Another issue I have is a lower back problem (disk) and the HD riding position with one's feet outstretched just wouldn't work for me I'm afraid.  This is why the BMW RSL is so comfortable for me.  I could maybe go for the new RS even but it's a little late as in I turn 80 this year so my riding career is nearing an end wether I like it or not and I DON'T like it!  Enough of this negative somewhat depressing babble.

James, nothing stopping you from visiting the dealer and just having a seat on one!

The floorboards are really quite comfortable and not feet forward nearly as much as some like the Wide Glide. In fact I can position my feet to almost mid control position while under way. Some of the models have mid controls like the Super Glide, which is also a bit lighter than the RK.

The handling on the road is less cumbersome than you would imagine, and you will not over ride a corner and stuff it into the weeds by forgetting you're on a Harley and not an RT or RS! They do handle curves reasonably well even without as much lean angle as an RS. They can be easy to scrape floorboards, which tip up to prevent digging in.

Sadly, they are heavy and parking lot maneuvers can get interesting, but low seat height helps keep control.

The dealer will be more than happy to set you up with a test ride, something to scratch off the bucket list...

The BMW dealer set me up with a ride on a 1600 K bike even if I wasn't buying.

[Hosstage]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, fourteenfour said:

and the newest edition to the Harley line up features this beauty, designed and built in China..

 

 

We'll see how that works out. It's mostly being brought in to use for the Harley rider training program. I'd really like to see it under 400 pounds, haven't checked seat height yet.

[Rougarou]

20 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Interesting… my car has Apple car play and I hate it. I really don’t like what it does to the GPS. I turned it off. What are the things you like about it?  Just curious 

 

Being able to pipe Waze right through the screen.  Other than that, I don't use it for anything else.

[Darbarian]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:37 AM, Rinkydink said:

I just don’t get the fascination with 1930s technology. I get it, they now have ABS and can include all the bells and whistles but the 45° thing, 3” suspension travel, crappy brakes, ill handling, and farm implement performance is just lost on me. Of course this is America and it’s whatever floats your boat. 

I placed riding a Harley to understand the mystique on my bucket list, but suspect it will never happen. They just don't tickle my fancy. 

[Skywagon]

2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Waze right through the screen

Hmm...I use waze on my phone all the time.  Thanks Roug...I'll have to give that a try.

[TEWKS]

9 hours ago, Darbarian said:

I placed riding a Harley to understand the mystique on my bucket list, but suspect it will never happen. They just don't tickle my fancy. 

A two day rental and a ride through Glacier would scratch that itch!  Wow, that’s a fly and ride right there!   For me. 

[fourteenfour]

18 hours ago, JamesW said:

I really like the HD Road King at least to look at.  I have never even ridden an HD and I would like to test ride a Road King but it's a little late in my long time riding career and even if I liked the bike I wouldn't consider actually buying one so I'll take a pass.  That said I'm still curious.  Oh, and if I did try one out I'm afraid I might forget what I'm on and try to stuff it into a curve a bit too fast and then where would I be?  Probably up the old creek without the old paddle is where with an RK on top of my old body.  Another issue I have is a lower back problem (disk) and the HD riding position with one's feet outstretched just wouldn't work for me I'm afraid.  This is why the BMW RSL is so comfortable for me.  I could maybe go for the new RS even but it's a little late as in I turn 80 this year so my riding career is nearing an end wether I like it or not and I DON'T like it!  Enough of this negative somewhat depressing babble.

 

Harley does make a pretty nice trike... just buy a 2019 or newer as those have ABS and other traction control goodies

[Hosstage]

Still not a complete fan of abs on my motorcycle.

[TEWKS]

2 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Still not a complete fan of abs on my motorcycle.

IIRC you’ve got way more Harley miles than I do but here’s a little game I play every once in a while. I go to a parking lot, ok the turnaround in front of my house and hammer the brakes on my GS with ABS, and then do it with the Harley Non ABS. It’s much more of a thinking game to try and keep the Harley from locking up the wheels, more so the back. And, who gives a shite you ask?  Ahh, probably nobody but I thought it added to the conversation. 

[Hosstage]

1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

IIRC you’ve got way more Harley miles than I do but here’s a little game I play every once in a while. I go to a parking lot, ok the turnaround in front of my house and hammer the brakes on my GS with ABS, and then do it with the Harley Non ABS. It’s much more of a thinking game to try and keep the Harley from locking up the wheels, more so the back. And, who gives a shite you ask?  Ahh, probably nobody but I thought it added to the conversation. 

The Harley abs is not as good as the BMW system (at least on my '12, maybe newer years are better). Harley uses the wheel bearing as the indicator wheel as opposed the external and larger wheel used by BMW (form over function you know, can't have some ugly indicator wheel on my chrome wheels!). The smaller bearing/wheel does not take in the info as well and does not respond as quickly, often causing no braking if approaching a bumpy intersection, or even one bump activates it and it does not begin braking once on smooth surface. Requires a release and re-apply the brakes to activate the brakes. Quite unnerving. I have one bike with abs and one without. The one without is at least consistent.

The abs is nice when it works as it should. Scares hell out of me when it doesn't.

[TEWKS]

21 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Harley uses the wheel bearing as the indicator wheel as opposed the external and larger wheel used by BMW (form over function you know, can't have some ugly indicator wheel on my chrome wheels!). The smaller bearing/wheel does not take in the info as well and does not respond as quickly, often causing no braking if approaching a bumpy intersection, or even one bump activates it and it does not begin braking once on smooth surface. Requires a release and re-apply the brakes to activate the brakes. Quite unnerving

Now, how we gonna sell any Harleys with that kind of talk?   I’m sure they remedied that issue with the newer systems. Can’t imagine they’d get away with selling bikes (bike reviews) if they didn’t fix it.

[Hosstage]

I've seen the new ones - no external indicator wheel, still using a wheel bearing for indicator.

The new ones also have some kind of traction control system called RDRS, Reflex Defensive Rider System. A pain to override when trying to do smokey burnouts, I've heard...

[fourteenfour]

2 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

I've seen the new ones - no external indicator wheel, still using a wheel bearing for indicator.

The new ones also have some kind of traction control system called RDRS, Reflex Defensive Rider System. A pain to override when trying to do smokey burnouts, I've heard...

 

RDRS is their fancy name for lean sensitive ABS and traction control. They charge a thousand dollars to add it on, a feature even 6k bikes from KTM have  :) 

 

2009 frame, 2014 body work, 2017 motor and suspension, and not much else has changed on their tour models. Some electronics updates for their nav system and added led headlamps on the higher trims. took till 2019 for the trikes to get abs and traction control

 

 

Going to be an interesting year for Harley, losing over ten percent of their sales in the US is not easily recovered from, supply of bikes is up from 48 days to 74 since the end of October 22. Simply put they have been playing the paint game and some fairing swaps and people simply have no real need for a new Harley when it is materially the same as it has been. Last big change to tour was 2017 and softail in 2018. The Revolution Max is a slow roll out.  Lowest cost bike is 16k after freight and surcharge.  So with economic uncertainty and inflation not abating and rates going up very pricey motorcycles may be a tough sale

 

 

 

 

 

[Hosstage]

3 hours ago, fourteenfour said:

 

RDRS is their fancy name for lean sensitive ABS and traction control. They charge a thousand dollars to add it on, a feature even 6k bikes from KTM have  :) 

 

2009 frame, 2014 body work, 2017 motor and suspension, and not much else has changed on their tour models. Some electronics updates for their nav system and added led headlamps on the higher trims. took till 2019 for the trikes to get abs and traction control

 

 

Going to be an interesting year for Harley, losing over ten percent of their sales in the US is not easily recovered from, supply of bikes is up from 48 days to 74 since the end of October 22. Simply put they have been playing the paint game and some fairing swaps and people simply have no real need for a new Harley when it is materially the same as it has been. Last big change to tour was 2017 and softail in 2018. The Revolution Max is a slow roll out.  Lowest cost bike is 16k after freight and surcharge.  So with economic uncertainty and inflation not abating and rates going up very pricey motorcycles may be a tough sale

 

 

 

 

 

I can't disagree with any of that. 

 

Edit with regards to the statement that the lowest price model is $16,000. The Iron 883 is under $12,000 before freight and surcharge. Even the Nightster, the new Revolution Max starts at $13,499. So, there's that.

Still not cheap to get younger riders into the sport.

The nice thing is a ton of used ones in decent shape with low miles for sale with decent prices. Owners tend to take good care of their bikes long term, because they are expensive.

Get them onto nice used ones, they become buyers of new ones later.

 

[TEWKS]

She’s a little on the slow side, can’t dance like the hip hop chicks, and yeah, she’s prolly made one too many midnight Twinkie runs, but, I still want to marry her! 
 

[Hosstage]

On 2/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, fourteenfour said:

and the newest edition to the Harley line up features this beauty, designed and built in China..

 

 

 

To be imported, but not street legal, only to be used for their rider training program.

 

https://www.advrider.com/harley-davidson-no-street-legal-chinese-350-for-us-market-in-2023/

[fourteenfour]

17 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I can't disagree with any of that. 

 

Edit with regards to the statement that the lowest price model is $16,000. The Iron 883 is under $12,000 before freight and surcharge. Even the Nightster, the new Revolution Max starts at $13,499. So, there's that.

Still not cheap to get younger riders into the sport.

The nice thing is a ton of used ones in decent shape with low miles for sale with decent prices. Owners tend to take good care of their bikes long term, because they are expensive.

Get them onto nice used ones, they become buyers of new ones later.

 

 

Hence my claim of 16k.... that Nightster is $13,499 + $700 freight and $500 surcharge which is 14,699... but the big twins which is what people mostly associate with Harley like the base Softail Standard is $14,399 + $700 freight and $750 surcharge which is $15,849 WITHOUT ABS and frankly buying a motorcycle like that without ABS is just silly so add another $950 which means $16,799 before dealer fees, taxes, and more.

[fourteenfour]

9 hours ago, Hosstage said:

 

To be imported, but not street legal, only to be used for their rider training program.

 

https://www.advrider.com/harley-davidson-no-street-legal-chinese-350-for-us-market-in-2023/

 

Actually it is street legal.  The went through the entirety of the CARB and NHTSA certification programs for all three models. So yeah, what Zeist said about the 350RA is true - that one will not be sold but he did not mention that they did get certification for two other models.

 

https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/harley-davidson-x350-coming-to-usa/

[Rougarou]

AMF to the rescue

 

[TEWKS]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:55 AM, Rougarou said:

AMF to the rescue

 

 

 

Actually, the AMF Harleys are finally starting to become cool after many years of being despised and labeled as a POS. Now don’t get me wrong, I still think they’re pieces of shit but they are getting old enough now where they can tug at the nostalgia strings. This is, JMO / YMMV and all that. 

[Rougarou]

4 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

 

 

Actually, the AMF Harleys are finally starting to become cool after many years of being despised and labeled as a POS. Now don’t get me wrong, I still think they’re pieces of shit but they are getting old enough now where they can tug at the nostalgia strings. This is, JMO / YMMV and all that. 

 

And they had little bikes

 

[TEWKS]

Good movie! 

 

[Rougarou]

Maybe they need to get back to making high quality golf carts

 

2 Harley Davidson golf carts