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No power to fuel pump R1200RT-P


SD1

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OK, on my second RT-P and seems to also have a fuel system issue. The pump in the bike DOES NOT prime when the key is switched on. I have a brand new in box oem fuel pump assembly and a spare FPS attached to it that I connected and that also DOES NOT prime on the key turn.

 

Believe I was told on my first go around that there are no fuses/relays that drive the pump. The only issue I can see is the the bike is equipped with an auxiliary battery, however, that battery is missing. I cant imagine the the auxiliary battery is integral to the basic operation of the bike, but I am not the smartest tool in the shed either. Is that an open circuit that needs to be closed in order for the system to operate?

 

A little more info. The bike has been sitting for an extended period of time, however, the tank was properly drained prior to being retired. The pump that is in the bike looks fine. The bike only has 7300 miles on it. It has a brand new AGM battery installed yesterday. The bike will turn over and the yellow triangle is not illuminated.

 

Also add that both the pump that was in it and the new one have the newer style black powder coated FPC's and neither have any degradation on the underside resin and the old pump shows no sign of water or debris in the cavity under the FPC.
 

Any ideas as to why it would not be powering up the fuel pump? I do hear the stepper motor in the throttle body zeroing. 

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions. -Doug

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***UPDATE***

I tested the connections and was getting power to the FPC, AND to the pump (through the FPC) WHILE the starter is engaged. NO IDEA why it is not priming. I understand that the control unit won't continually prime it or prime it every time you turn the key, so I had waited for an hour between cycling the key to make sure I hadn't missed the brief "whirr" of the pump priming. Still no idea why it does not. In fact, it takes a millisecond after the starter is engaged for the pump to engage.

BUT, with the starter engaged, BOTH FPC's and BOTH pumps work (obviously one is brand new) but the "original" is also working so for now, I am going to leave the original pump in there and hold on to the new one for potential future use.

Thanks for the assistance, I am going to finish up the basic maintenance. It has fresh oil (Castol GTX Dino 20/50). It will have all four plugs OEM NGK's, air filter, oil filter and fresh gas and then assume it will fire off.

If you watched the video, I refitted the right side throttle body into the intake boot/manifold and put a new clamp on it. 

Again, the bike only has 7300 miles on it, it turns over freely and I am expecting it will fire and run as it should. Thanks again for the help!!

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, SD1 said:

***UPDATE***

I tested the connections and was getting power to the FPC, AND to the pump (through the FPC) WHILE the starter is engaged. NO IDEA why it is not priming. I understand that the control unit won't continually prime it or prime it every time you turn the key, so I had waited for an hour between cycling the key to make sure I hadn't missed the brief "whirr" of the pump priming. Still no idea why it does not. In fact, it takes a millisecond after the starter is engaged for the pump to engage.

BUT, with the starter engaged, BOTH FPC's and BOTH pumps work (obviously one is brand new) but the "original" is also working so for now, I am going to leave the original pump in there and hold on to the new one for potential future use.

Thanks for the assistance, I am going to finish up the basic maintenance. It has fresh oil (Castol GTX Dino 20/50). It will have all four plugs OEM NGK's, air filter, oil filter and fresh gas and then assume it will fire off.

If you watched the video, I refitted the right side throttle body into the intake boot/manifold and put a new clamp on it. 

Again, the bike only has 7300 miles on it, it turns over freely and I am expecting it will fire and run as it should. Thanks again for the help!!

Evening SD1

I only have a minute to address this right now so this will be short. 

 

First thing __ Never EVER run an in-tank fule pump unless it is has fuel running through it. The fuel flow lubricates the pump as well as cools it. Doesn't take very long to burn a dry pump up. 

 

On the no-prime, try a 1/2 hour battery disconnect, then connect battery, turn key ON (do not start), can you hear it prime when you turn the key on?  Then with key still on (not started) do a twice full twist grip idle to wide open to do a new  TPS re-learn.

 

Pump will only run for about 2 seconds at key-on then won't run again until starter is engaged. 

 

 

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@dirtrider thanks for the reply,I only toggled the starter a few times while I was testing the components, I wasn't holding the starter and letting them run continuously. If they are subject to fail from such a brief bench test, they shouldn't be in our bikes. 

 

At this point I have determined that all of the components are working. I cannot answer why my previous 09' did in fact prime the system when the ignition key was turned on, it was audible and became a familiar note when I mounted the bike first thing in the morning, and that this bike is not doing the same thing.

 

I will say, this bike has been idle for an extended period of time, I am guessing a year or more. Unlike the previous bike, the fuel was drained and the pump is in good condition and have now determined that it is in working order, but in any case, it has not been operated at all let alone regularly for a very long time. I am curious to see if it does in fact fire off and run as it should, and if some regular use/heat cycles may reset the system? Not sure why that would make a difference but who knows?

 

Lastly, even though it is not priming, the pump does kick on within a millisecond of toggling the starter, so it is "working" and should make the bike operational, just interesting that two "identical" bikes are doing different things. 

 

***UPDATE***

 

I refitted the fuel pump, swapped out the plugs (old ones looked ok) and put some fresh fuel in the bike (Chevron) and it fired right up. I let it idle for about 20 minutes. Runs great.

 

Motor runs fine BUT I def have a drivetrain issue. It initially did not want to go into gear and it doesnt seem to be disengaging/engaging the clutch. I haven't even looked at the fluid or assessed it so will start working on that shortly. 

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7 hours ago, SD1 said:

def have a drivetrain issue

Coppers are notoriously hard on clutches.........replacement cost thru dealer is BIG. Could be why it was mothballed and then sold. 

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1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

Coppers are notoriously hard on clutches.........replacement cost thru dealer is BIG. Could be why it was mothballed and then sold. 

 

They are not hard on them, they are inexperienced riders. One thing I have learned is that the clutch on these bikes is actually very robust. That said, the clutch and gear engagement is a bit wonky compared to Japanese machines and takes a very slight adjustment or getting used to. If you burn out a clutch on an RT at 7k miles, you don't know how to properly operate a motorcycle, its that simple. : )

 

I can replace it relatively inexpensively and more than willing to do so as it will dramatically enhance the value of the bike and its value to me personally. Not looking forward to that, but economically, it was a great deal even if I have to perform this service. 

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28 minutes ago, SD1 said:

They are not hard on them, they are inexperienced riders

You might look up 9Mary7’s profession. If anyone is an experience motorider here and would know coppers on bikes.. it would be him. Just saying…

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It changes nothing, again, if you ruin the clutch on an RT in 7K miles, you don't know how to properly operate a motorcycle. Have you ever watched cops ride or drive? Being in law enforcement does not magically transform your abilities, in fact, if anything, it amplifies your inefficiencies.

 

Its just life, how things work. I am not bad mouthing every cop who has ever touched a bike....

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OK, lets ask the boss, @9Mary7 this bike came from a university campus police agency. Based on what I think (based on the bikes in your sig) is a pretty long stint in the motor unit, do some guys ride better than others? If you are in a big enough agency, are there guys that probably shouldn't even be in the motor unit? And lastly, and no disrespect, if you are going to find some questionable motorcycling skills, would you agree a college campus police force might be one place you would find them?

 

Look at it from a different perspective, you are arguing that 7k is a reasonable milestone for an aggressively ridden RT-P to wear out its clutch..... I highly doubt that someone like @9Mary7 has burned out a clutch in 7k miles, but maybe he has..... ???

 

There is also some chance that the bike had a weak link, maybe the clutch was poorly aligned and wore prematurely. The fluid was polluted but wouldn't say it was shot. I will update, going to put some fresh juice in it and bleed it, see if that does anything.

 

 

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1 hour ago, SD1 said:

OK, lets ask the boss, @9Mary7 this bike came from a university campus police agency. Based on what I think (based on the bikes in your sig) is a pretty long stint in the motor unit, do some guys ride better than others? And lastly, and no disrespect, if you are going to find some questionable motorcycling skills, would you agree a college campus police force might be one place you would find them?

Yes, some ride better than others.....and , depending on the agency, some are woefully under trained. A College PD may not have any additional training.

 

1 hour ago, SD1 said:

Look at it from a different perspective, you are arguing that 7k is a reasonable milestone for an aggressively ridden RT-P to wear out its clutch..... I highly doubt that someone like @9Mary7 has burned out a clutch in 7k miles, but maybe he has..... ???

No, I don't believe 7k is a reasonable milestone for any aggressively ridden RT to wear out its clutch. Never wore any of mine out.

We did have a Sergeant who was placed in Traffic and somehow managed to pass a difficult two week Motor School on an old training Kawasaki. He came to our unit and was given an 1100RT-P for duty...........see where I'm goin with this? The Kawi's require a good amount of RPM and clutch slippage for fast takeoffs and of course the BMW dry disc will not tolerate that. He went thru 3 clutches in a year before getting hurt and moving out of Traffic.

My swag about your new acquisition was based on my experience and the knowledge that small agencies like a college PD rarely have the funding for a competent training school and would surely balk at the expense of a smoked clutch.

Good luck and we'll wait for your update!:java:

 

PS..... Coppers are notoriously hard on clutches.

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dirtrider
12 hours ago, SD1 said:

It changes nothing, again, if you ruin the clutch on an RT in 7K miles, you don't know how to properly operate a motorcycle. Have you ever watched cops ride or drive? Being in law enforcement does not magically transform your abilities, in fact, if anything, it amplifies your inefficiencies.

 

Its just life, how things work. I am not bad mouthing every cop who has ever touched a bike....

Morning SD1

 

I don't agree with your statement of   " It changes nothing, again, if you ruin the clutch on an RT in 7K miles, you don't know how to properly operate a motorcycle ". 

 

Now if that statement said "  It changes nothing, again, if you ruin the clutch on an RT in 7K miles, you don't know how to properly operate a DRY CLUTCH  motorcycle ",  then I  might agree with it. 

 

I used to ride with a retired LEO motor officer (just under 25 years as a motor officer), one the best motorcycle riders that I know. He also went his entire motor officer career without a major motorcycle incident. You definitely don't want to ride against this guy in a motorcycle rodeo or any tight serpentine event (he was very good). 

 

Now with what I said above, he burnt the clutch out of his first BMW dry clutch bike when his department switched to BMW motorcycles. I don't know the miles but the motorcycle was less than 6 months old. He spent most of his LEO career on a Harley, many/many/many hours of LEO advanced training, lots of LEO city riding, & many LEO riding competitions (he won quite a few). 

 

The thing is, he had all those years of ingrained Harley wet clutch (gray-area) riding so that is how he initially rode the BMW dry-clutch. That just doesn't work with the BMW dry clutch.  As far as I know he never burnt up another BMW dry clutch but he retired from his department not too long after they fully went to the BMW platform. 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the comments @9Mary7 and @dirtrider Not my intention to lay blame or cast dispersion on the BMW operating LEO motor unit community, but you both concur that improper operation can lead to premature failure and that was my point. 

 

I have been riding for 40 plus years and last year was the first time I rode an RT with the dry clutch and it is noticeably different. Its not the easiest bike to ride "quickly" and if I had any complaint at all, it would be the clutch/gearbox is a little trucky. But, I am not going to be involved in any pursuits or having to rush somewhere on a life and death call and so for my wants and needs in the saddle, it works pretty brilliantly.

 

The only question now is will I be getting my "clutch replacement specialist" badge here in the near future. : )

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dirtrider
2 minutes ago, SD1 said:

Thanks for the comments @9Mary7 and @dirtrider Not my intention to lay blame or cast dispersion on the BMW operating LEO motor unit community, but you both concur that improper operation can lead to premature failure and that was my point. 

 

I have been riding for 40 plus years and last year was the first time I rode an RT with the dry clutch and it is noticeably different. Its not the easiest bike to ride "quickly" and if I had any complaint at all, it would be the clutch/gearbox is a little trucky. But, I am not going to be involved in any pursuits or having to rush somewhere on a life and death call and so for my wants and needs in the saddle, it works pretty brilliantly.

 

The only question now is will I be getting my "clutch replacement specialist" badge here in the near future. : )

Morning SD1

 

Once you get used to the BMW dry clutch & how to pulse it instead if slip it then it's really no big deal.

 

On my 1200 bikes I typically don't use the clutch for (normal riding) upper gear's up-shifting once above 2nd gear. I usually upshift with no clutch 3rd through 6th. Coming back down I typically  rev match from 6th, to 5th, to 4th but start de-clutching again when going down to 3rd , 2nd, & 1st.

 

I pretty well use the clutch (at least partially) for wide open throttle shifts as a missed wide open throttle (no-declutch) shift can be hard on equipment.  

 

It takes a little experience  but once figured out is it pretty seamless & smooth as silk.

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@dirtrider thanks for the comment. I really don't have enough seat time to say I have it figured out (I only put 3500 miles on the previous RT-P)  I was also experimenting with clutchless shifts in the upper gears. It isnt a terribly difficult setup but at the same time, it is also easy to see how some might "struggle" to figure it out especially if they had spent considerable time on wet clutch bikes or had little experience with clutches in general.

 

I like the term "pulse" I may have used the term "feathering" but I think pulse is a more accurate description.

 

 

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Riding thru the Alps 2 up, navigating an uphill switchback, I wouldn't necessarily call it "pulsing" the clutch as much as I would call it "riding the sh.t out of" the clutch.

Sorry about the clutch on your rental bike, Edelweiss.

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**Update** Went out and acquired a couple of bottles of the magic blue gumball juice and proceeded to bleed the system and have the fresh juice fully pushed through the line and topped off the reservoir.

 

Wah wah wah..... no change. Still not clunking into first gear, I can pop it up into second without the clutch but there is barely any friction. It will turn the wheel with the bike up on the center stand but there isnt enough bite to even nudge the bike if it were sitting on the contact patches.

 

There is a slight what I think is an abnormal chatter when the clutch is disengaged and quiets down when the clutch is pulled in. I can try to get it on video if you think that would be helpful.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated. While I assume the clutch is gone, this is the first time I am trying to diagnose the issue and would like to make an effort to properly diagnose it prior to tearing it down.

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dirtrider
17 hours ago, SD1 said:

**Update** Went out and acquired a couple of bottles of the magic blue gumball juice and proceeded to bleed the system and have the fresh juice fully pushed through the line and topped off the reservoir.

 

Wah wah wah..... no change. Still not clunking into first gear, I can pop it up into second without the clutch but there is barely any friction. It will turn the wheel with the bike up on the center stand but there isnt enough bite to even nudge the bike if it were sitting on the contact patches.

 

There is a slight what I think is an abnormal chatter when the clutch is disengaged and quiets down when the clutch is pulled in. I can try to get it on video if you think that would be helpful.

 

Any thoughts are appreciated. While I assume the clutch is gone, this is the first time I am trying to diagnose the issue and would like to make an effort to properly diagnose it prior to tearing it down.

Morning SD1

 

That does sound like either the clutch or the input splines are toast.

 

You might try removing the starter then use a bright light to look into the clutch area.

 

Then put the transmission in 6th gear & have someone turn the rear wheel while you look into the clutch area to see where the movement stops. 

 

If you see the clutch disk turn then it is probably a burnt up clutch, if the disk isn't spinning then your problem is more than likely the input shaft/disk splines, or something inside the transmission. 

 

OR, if you want to tear into it farther then there is a plastic top cover on the clutch cavity that exposes a LOT more of the clutch cavity area but that isn't easy to access.

 

 QhKJZTU.png

 

 

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Thanks @dirtrider I am going to tear it down. Obviously it has some internal failure so going to get down to business and open it up and identify the failure and get it corrected. I pulled the slave off and without any pressure on the clutch the bike will go in and out of all 6 gears but has little to no bite. 

 

I am not in a hurry, think I will get it stripped partially in the next week and possibly next weekend if I can get supplies and whatnot together, will make a run at it. If you recall, I still have a basic clutch replacement kit in hand. I have a friction disc and several of the seals I bought for the previous RT-P that wound up having no clutch issues. Once I get it opened up and assess the problem, I will get some details posted and make some final decisions on what the problem and resolutions will be.

 

I would add, I did the basics on the motor, swapped oil/filter air filter, castrol Dino 20/50, all 4 NGK's and refitted and clamped the right side throttle body and the motor absolutely purrs. Lets hope its just the friction plate!

 

Thanks again for chiming in. I have some ability to do the work, but the comments and suggestions here are very helpful to me and much appreciated.

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dirtrider
2 hours ago, SD1 said:

Thanks @dirtrider I am going to tear it down. Obviously it has some internal failure so going to get down to business and open it up and identify the failure and get it corrected. I pulled the slave off and without any pressure on the clutch the bike will go in and out of all 6 gears but has little to no bite. 

 

I am not in a hurry, think I will get it stripped partially in the next week and possibly next weekend if I can get supplies and whatnot together, will make a run at it. If you recall, I still have a basic clutch replacement kit in hand. I have a friction disc and several of the seals I bought for the previous RT-P that wound up having no clutch issues. Once I get it opened up and assess the problem, I will get some details posted and make some final decisions on what the problem and resolutions will be.

 

I would add, I did the basics on the motor, swapped oil/filter air filter, castrol Dino 20/50, all 4 NGK's and refitted and clamped the right side throttle body and the motor absolutely purrs. Lets hope its just the friction plate!

 

Thanks again for chiming in. I have some ability to do the work, but the comments and suggestions here are very helpful to me and much appreciated.

Morning SD1

 

Before completely tearing it apart you might want to do the starter removal & clutch inspection.

 

It doesn't happen often but I have seen the driveshaft rubber isolator fail therefore allowing the shaft to free-spin between the front & rear parts. 

 

 zaj2390.jpg

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@dirtrider OK, I will follow up on that. I cannot say for certain what is going on in there, obviously, but I can definitely hear rotation and chatter inside the case and the clutch rod spins. I assume that means the clutch assembly is rotating. That doesn't negate your point and no reason not to take your advise to continue to try and diagnose/isolate the issue(s).

 

 

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dirtrider
20 minutes ago, SD1 said:

@dirtrider OK, I will follow up on that. I cannot say for certain what is going on in there, obviously, but I can definitely hear rotation and chatter inside the case and the clutch rod spins. I assume that means the clutch assembly is rotating. That doesn't negate your point and no reason not to take your advise to continue to try and diagnose/isolate the issue(s).

 

 

Afternoon  SD1

 

If the clutch rod (input shaft) shaft spins then probably not a drive shaft issue.

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