2002 R1150RT wont run 120k miles

[warmas]

Good afternoon all.

This bike will not start. 

I bought the bike several years ago non running. I replaced injector (lower)I  hes (Hall effect sensor) and bike ran as intended. Bike has (i)abs, I think. It works, but the instrument panel lights blink. Brakes are not this problem.

Bike has always surged, annoyingly so. Last couple years it has died completely several times. Usually it starts again in an hour or so. 

A few weeks ago I began to repair the bike so it would run reliably after it finally failed to start. The hes injector signal has been reliable.The hes ignition signal has been suspect.

 

I replaced some wiring in the sensor harness, no start.

I replaced the original ignition hes with a new hes, no start.

I replaced the hes harness connector with a 6-pole connector I salvaged from a Chev Astro van. It is plenty serviceable, and much easier to deal with than the 6-pole oval BMW connector.

The bike finally started, and easily so. 

The crank pulley is Super Glued to the trigger cup. I have not damaged the cup-crankshaft locator tang. It mates properly with the crankshaft.

I have bench-tested the hes assembly repeatedly and successfully by wiring it to a battery per Doug Raymond (many thanks) and each hes of the assembly closes and opens a circuit to a 12volt led (instrument panel light)  reliably and identically. By this I mean the hes circuit was, on the bench, either opened or closed by the insertion and withdrawl  of a hacksaw blade, among other things, where the trigger cup travels, thereby duplicating action of the hes assembly.

 

Now that the bike had started and ran, I decided to sychronize the throttle bodies. I never had sychronized them. I have sychronized the carburetors of my 1980 BMW R100 several times. The R1150RT requires the throttle position sensor (tps) be set to 250mv with the throttle blade closed, then the blade opened via the throttle stop screw to a tps setting of 340mv. I successfully, tediously, accomplished this, and balanced the manifold pressures and achieved an idle rpm of 1000 by adjusting the big brass screws (bbs). The bike started readily and ran fine.

 

I rode the bike I think about 400 miles without any problem. I keep it in an enclosed unheated airplane hangar. I put it in the hangar one day, and the next time I tried to start it it would not start. A few puffs but no pops. My battery is charged, I have seen it drop to around 11volts when cranking. These, and this, bikes are finicky about their batteries. I dont think a low battery is my problem.

 

I have tried to only include in this preamble the facts relevant to my problem.

The bike now will not start. When I crank it with the starter motor (crank) the bike motor huffs a couple times. Sounds like ill-timed spark to me.

I get, while cranking,  an injector signal at the injector connector and an ignition signal at the coil connector. Both are a ground. 

The spark plugs, while cranking, spark when grounded outside the cylinder. The injector sprays fuel while cranking.

While cranking, with led lights connected in parallel with the signal wires, I get 2 injector signals per one ignition signal. A single injector and then  simultaneous injector and ignition signals.

When I turn the motor by hand the injector is triggered but the ignition is not.

The bike motor does not start.

 

My wiring skills are rudimentary, and so I suspected, given the 2 injector signals and one ignition signal, I should verify their unique continuity.

Each hes signal wire has continuity to only its terminals at the Motronic and its hes. 

Similarly, there exists no continuity of the ground pulse between the coil and the injector.

I think the bike does not run because the ingition and injector signals from the hes assembly are corrupted.

The circuits for each seem secure on either side of the Motronic.

I do not know how to fix this problem.

 

This problem reminds me of a cop tv show investigating a crime: any information, anecdote, opinion, educated guess, hunch, rumor, or personal experience is appreciated.

The bike, when it runs, rides very nice.

 

 

 

[warmas]

A bit more info.

I think my fuel system is in good order. Gas flows out return line, sprays out high-pressure supply line when quick-connect is held open, will blow injector off end of high pressure line to injector if injector keeper is removed.

I have removed injector from throttle body and introduced raw gasoline into cylinders through injector mount opening. Have plugged opening with disconnected injector and cranked motor. Have only received a few huffs out the throttle bodies and air cleaner. Never has the motor fired.

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, warmas said:

Good afternoon all.

This bike will not start. 

I bought the bike several years ago non running. I replaced injector (lower)I  hes (Hall effect sensor) and bike ran as intended. Bike has (i)abs, I think. It works, but the instrument panel lights blink. Brakes are not this problem.

Bike has always surged, annoyingly so. Last couple years it has died completely several times. Usually it starts again in an hour or so. 

A few weeks ago I began to repair the bike so it would run reliably after it finally failed to start. The hes injector signal has been reliable.The hes ignition signal has been suspect.

 

I replaced some wiring in the sensor harness, no start.

I replaced the original ignition hes with a new hes, no start.

I replaced the hes harness connector with a 6-pole connector I salvaged from a Chev Astro van. It is plenty serviceable, and much easier to deal with than the 6-pole oval BMW connector.

The bike finally started, and easily so. 

The crank pulley is Super Glued to the trigger cup. I have not damaged the cup-crankshaft locator tang. It mates properly with the crankshaft.

I have bench-tested the hes assembly repeatedly and successfully by wiring it to a battery per Doug Raymond (many thanks) and each hes of the assembly closes and opens a circuit to a 12volt led (instrument panel light)  reliably and identically. By this I mean the hes circuit was, on the bench, either opened or closed by the insertion and withdrawl  of a hacksaw blade, among other things, where the trigger cup travels, thereby duplicating action of the hes assembly.

 

Now that the bike had started and ran, I decided to sychronize the throttle bodies. I never had sychronized them. I have sychronized the carburetors of my 1980 BMW R100 several times. The R1150RT requires the throttle position sensor (tps) be set to 250mv with the throttle blade closed, then the blade opened via the throttle stop screw to a tps setting of 340mv. I successfully, tediously, accomplished this, and balanced the manifold pressures and achieved an idle rpm of 1000 by adjusting the big brass screws (bbs). The bike started readily and ran fine.

 

I rode the bike I think about 400 miles without any problem. I keep it in an enclosed unheated airplane hangar. I put it in the hangar one day, and the next time I tried to start it it would not start. A few puffs but no pops. My battery is charged, I have seen it drop to around 11volts when cranking. These, and this, bikes are finicky about their batteries. I dont think a low battery is my problem.

 

I have tried to only include in this preamble the facts relevant to my problem.

The bike now will not start. When I crank it with the starter motor (crank) the bike motor huffs a couple times. Sounds like ill-timed spark to me.

I get, while cranking,  an injector signal at the injector connector and an ignition signal at the coil connector. Both are a ground. 

The spark plugs, while cranking, spark when grounded outside the cylinder. The injector sprays fuel while cranking.

While cranking, with led lights connected in parallel with the signal wires, I get 2 injector signals per one ignition signal. A single injector and then  simultaneous injector and ignition signals.

When I turn the motor by hand the injector is triggered but the ignition is not.

The bike motor does not start.

 

My wiring skills are rudimentary, and so I suspected, given the 2 injector signals and one ignition signal, I should verify their unique continuity.

Each hes signal wire has continuity to only its terminals at the Motronic and its hes. 

Similarly, there exists no continuity of the ground pulse between the coil and the injector.

I think the bike does not run because the ingition and injector signals from the hes assembly are corrupted.

The circuits for each seem secure on either side of the Motronic.

I do not know how to fix this problem.

 

This problem reminds me of a cop tv show investigating a crime: any information, anecdote, opinion, educated guess, hunch, rumor, or personal experience is appreciated.

The bike, when it runs, rides very nice.

 

 

 

Afternoon   warmas

 

Lots of information from you so that tells us what has been done but doesn't necessarily tell us what the problem is.   

 

Depending on how cold & other factors 2 injector sprays per revolution is possible during engine cranking so that might not be a factor.

 

A couple of diagnostic things still need to be done_

 

A fuel return hose flow test needs to be run to verify ENOUGH fuel flow at enough pressure to start it.  Fuel mist  spraying from the injectors looks like a lot but sometimes it isn't enough to start engine)

 

You should also put a timing light on one of the spark plug wires then see if the spark is sparking near (or slightly before) the TDC mark  on the flywheel while cranking. This will tell you if it is sparking at the correct timing to start engine)

 

You probably should also drain the fuel tank then install new, fresh, KNOWN GOOD gasoline just to eliminate a possibly of contaminate fuel.  

 

Added: I see you made another post while I was typing this reply. So I will wait for a while to post more until  you are done adding more things to your list.   

 

Here's the bottom line__ (IF) you have enough compression during cranking, have enough a GOOD strong  fuel spray spraying in, have a good spark (at the correct time), & the spark plugs are good, & the exhaust and/or intake isn't plugged then it WILL start. So what is missing?? 

[warmas]

Dirtrider:

Thanks for the reply.

The fuel in the tank is less than 2 weeks old. The bike has run on the fuel in the tank.

I am confident the injectors function properly. I have added enough fuel to the cylinders to flood the and after repeated cranking the motor has not fired once. It should at least fire.

I have hooked up an old timing light, it illuminated, I was unable to see the OT mark on the flywheel with it. I know where the mark is and have cleaned it to improve its visibility.

I will attempt the timing light again.

[warmas]

I did not know 2 injector sprays/rev was possible. It has been in the 30 degrees F here. 

Much thanks for your reccomendations.

[dirtrider]

39 minutes ago, warmas said:

I did not know 2 injector sprays/rev was possible. It has been in the 30 degrees F here. 

Much thanks for your reccomendations.

More__

 

Do a compression test, (good= yes/no?) Depending of cranking speed should be at least 125+ psi but more is always better.

 

Put a timing light on it to see if it is sparking anywhere near close, (yes/no?)

 

Put new spark plugs in it, spark plugs can spark OK in open air but fail to spark under cylinder compression (needs to be eliminated early on),

 

Measure the ignition system secondary  resistance (from one spark plug wire plug terminal all the way though to the other side spark plug wire spark plug terminal. Probably want to see between 17K to 22K through the full secondary (plug wire to plug wire terminals),

 

Remove the air filter for starting testing, an air cleaner element can look OK but the paper element can be swelled up enough to restrict air flow. (also look for mouse or rodent nests in the air cleaner),

 

There isn't a plug in the exhaust is there??? I once helped a guy that worked on his motorcycle for a full day  for not starting, when I got to his location first thing I saw was a black rubber plug in his muffler  (he put it in there during motorcycle washing then forgot to remove it). 

 

Try holding the throttle at 1/8 to 1/4 open during engine cranking as a quick test (sometimes in cold weather that is what is required for cold engine starting),

 

Make sure the fuel injector inlet screens (very fine screens in fuel injector inlet) are not plugged or partially plugged,

 

Verify that both the AIT (Air Intake Temperature sensor & the oil (engine) temperature sensor is hooked up & reading correctly. The IAT sensor usually isn't a big deal but an oil (engine)  temperature  sensor not working correctly (or open circuit) can REALLY hinder cold engine starting. Oil temp sensor should probably around 5K (give or take) at 0°c  

 

Make sure the fuel pump is continually running during engine cranking, it should come on for about 2 seconds at key-on, then turn off, then come back on full time during engine cranking. 

 

Re-check your TPS voltage, possible there is an open in the TPS  due to cold temps or (something),

 

I'll probably think of more but this should be enough to keep you busy for a while. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

59 minutes ago, warmas said:

Dirtrider:

Thanks for the reply.

The fuel in the tank is less than 2 weeks old. The bike has run on the fuel in the tank.

I am confident the injectors function properly. I have added enough fuel to the cylinders to flood the and after repeated cranking the motor has not fired once. It should at least fire.

I have hooked up an old timing light, it illuminated, I was unable to see the OT mark on the flywheel with it. I know where the mark is and have cleaned it to improve its visibility.

I will attempt the timing light again.

Evening warmas

 

If you can't get it to spark at the TDC or at the S mark then next move is to prove if (or, if it is not  sparking at the correct timing).

 

Remove a spark plug then stick a pencil or a chopstick (or something somewhat soft) into the spark plug hole, then turn the engine until the piston is at TDC  (pencil as far out as possible). Then put a paint mark on the front pulley in line with (something), a bolt, or crankcase seam, or add a wire pointer, etc.  Then crank it with the timing light pointed at the pulley (see if it sparks anywhere close (or just before)  the TDC mark you added.   

 

Also, look into the timing hole to see IF the S & TDC marks are visible, if not then  (could be a flywheel being off-clocked) 

 

 

[warmas]

 

DR:

Thanks for the tips.

1. Leakdown test right cylinder held 75psi over 80. I could not hold left cyl at tdc to perform leakdown compression test. I think it will test as good as fight cylinder.

2. Timing light connected to spark plug and positive and negative blinked when motor was cranked with starter. I saw something other than the S or the OT mark.

3. I haven't changed the plugs, they seem to spark fine out of the cyls, would not expect them both to fail at the same time. Plugs look very clean, I will consider changing them.

4. I put my Harbor Freight multimeter leads in resistance mode from one spark plug cap to the other and got, as I recall, approx 19k ohms.

5. Air filter has been out while I work on the motor.

6. Exhaust is not plugged.

7. I have held the throttle at every possible position from closed to wot at every stage of the starting sequence.

8. I have seen both injectors spray while wirking on motor. The motor ran the last 400 miles with really no problem.

9. I think the air intake temp probe works properly, but have not verified it. Will have to find out how to verify. OIl temp, if the RID is any indication, seems to be indicating properly.

     I think a cold temp indication enables a cold temp fuel/timing map. This bike, when it runs, seems to always start within a few revolutions and never die once started. It runs 

     well once started.

10. Fuel pump comes on for 2 seconds at ignition turn on. I think it stayed on while cranking, while testing this afternoon I think positive terminal at injector did not stay on

     while cranking. Will double check.

11. I will check the tps voltage.

 

Thanks for the tips.

I have primed the cylinders with gas and or carb cleaner and, with the injectors disabled, have been unable to fire the motor. A couple times the motor fired back through the air cleaner/throttle bodies. That (along with the 400 miles I rode before the motor quit) says to me the plugs are firing in the cylinders, but out of time.

With the ignition turned on, grounding either hes signal wire fires the plugs and the injector: I see the plugs spark and a led light plugged into the injector connector blinks.

I suspect grounding one hes signal wire should only fire the plugs or the injector, not both simultaneously. 

 

I forgot to mention that when I began working on the bike since it quit running, one hes assembly attach bolt was missing and the other two were not snug. Apparently Iforgot to tighten them when I installed the hes assembly for the final time before I rode it the 400 miles. The assembly was not loose to the touch, and visual inspection revealed no damage to it. I had wondered if the missing bolt had bounced around in there and damaged something. I saw no such sign, and the assembly has since tested good on my work bench. 

 

Before I rode the 400 miles, after the throttle bodies sync, I had, for the first time, adjusted the valves on both cylinders to 0.006" and 0.012". 

[warmas]

I have a mark on the crank pulley at about tdc.

I will check, again, the spark timing.

I think it is the root of the problem.

The timing marks are visible on the flywheel. I have seen them when turning the motor and to lock it at tdc to loosen and tighten crank bolt.

 

 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, warmas said:

I have a mark on the crank pulley at about tdc.

I will check, again, the spark timing.

I think it is the root of the problem.

The timing marks are visible on the flywheel. I have seen them when turning the motor and to lock it at tdc to loosen and tighten crank bolt.

 

 

Morning   warmas

 

Checking the spark timing is probably the next most logical place to start. This has to be somewhat correct or it definitely won't start or run. 

 

Don't totally trust the flywheel marks without using a pencil on a piston top to verify correct (or just add your own TDC mark to the front pulley  using the pencil-on-piston-top to get mark at TDC)

 

If the spark timing is off then verify that the front belt pulley (with timing cup attached)  didn't spin while tightening the bolt. If you are holding the flywheel with a lock pin then put a paint mark on the pulley (lined up with something that doesn't move) to verify that the pulley didn't spin when tightening the bolt. That little tit, or ear, on the timing cup can get bent or displaced while tightening the pulley bolt therefore allowing the pulley/cup to spin while tightening the bolt.

 

You might also remove fuse #5 from the fuse box for about 1/2 hour (that resets the Motronic) then reinstall fuse #5, then do a new TPS vs throttle position relearn (if you don't know how to do the TPS relearn just ask)

 

On the compression leak-down test, that verifies that the piston-rings are not excessively leaking at TDC & also tests that the valves are closed at TDC but this is a TDC thing. It really doesn't prove that the valves are timed within reason to allow full intake to make full compression pressure while cranking. Kind of unlikely that you will get a decent leak-down test & not have decent compression but personally I don't like unverified things while troubleshooting complex starting issues so if possible you should try to run a real cranking compression test.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, warmas said:

Fuel pump comes on for 2 seconds at ignition turn on. I think it stayed on while cranking, while testing this afternoon I think positive terminal at injector did not stay on

(#2) Morning   warmas

 

The (12v B+)  to the fuel injectors MUST stay on during engine cranking or you will have no fuel injection during starting so carefully look into this.  

 

The 12v B+  (TO) the fuel injectors in on the same circuit that powers the fuel pump (both are powered by the same fuel pump relay) so if the pump stays running during engine cranking then there SHOULD be 12v to the fuel injectors. 

[warmas]

Thanks DR.

I think all your sugggestions are very well taken.

I am pretty certain the timing cup has not moved  during installation. There are no signs it's tang is damaged.

The fuel pump staying on during cranking is an issue I have not yet resolved. I will pursue it today.

I have used the pencil on a piston method to approximate tdc to find the flywheel OT mark. The mark is where ir belongs.

I will again attempt to ascertain the crankshaft angle when the ignition the ignition fires. It is most important.

Motronic and tps reset and relearn will happen today.

 

The bike has always been in good working order. Everything on it seems to work properly.

This latest no-start problem has arisen since I last installed the hes assembly whose mounting bolts were discovered not tight and one missing. As I mentioned, I discovered no apparent damage to the hes assembly. Both hes(s) were installed to the mounting plate by me, the bottom sensor several years ago when I bought the bike, the top sensor and new harness just prior to the 400 miles I put on the bike. The bike seems to have an ignition signal problem, which makes my installation of the top hes suspect. I see no signs the timing cup is binding in the throat of the hes. I will determine today whether each hes functions properly.

 

Thanks much again.

[dirtrider]

53 minutes ago, warmas said:

Thanks DR.

I think all your sugggestions are very well taken.

I am pretty certain the timing cup has not moved  during installation. There are no signs it's tang is damaged.

The fuel pump staying on during cranking is an issue I have not yet resolved. I will pursue it today.

I have used the pencil on a piston method to approximate tdc to find the flywheel OT mark. The mark is where ir belongs.

I will again attempt to ascertain the crankshaft angle when the ignition the ignition fires. It is most important.

Motronic and tps reset and relearn will happen today.

 

The bike has always been in good working order. Everything on it seems to work properly.

This latest no-start problem has arisen since I last installed the hes assembly whose mounting bolts were discovered not tight and one missing. As I mentioned, I discovered no apparent damage to the hes assembly. Both hes(s) were installed to the mounting plate by me, the bottom sensor several years ago when I bought the bike, the top sensor and new harness just prior to the 400 miles I put on the bike. The bike seems to have an ignition signal problem, which makes my installation of the top hes suspect. I see no signs the timing cup is binding in the throat of the hes. I will determine today whether each hes functions properly.

 

Thanks much again.

Morning   warmas

 

Making sure that it IS sparking near the TDC (or S if cranking faster) is obviously the first step & MUST be accounted for before moving on to other areas of concern. Once the spark timing is vetted then we can move on to other things. 

 

I still like the mark on the front pulley as a quick check. Using the flywheel marks works IF the spark timing shows up in the timing hole. If the marks are not visible then you can't really tell how far the spark is off. Using a mark on the front pulley shows you approximately how far off the spark is off if not close enough to see the flywheel marks in the timing hole.  (example_ if the pulley mark shows the spark off 180° then you know it probably has an HES or HES wiring issue) 

 

There is another quick test__ that is (with key on) to rotate the front pulley clockwise through Top Dead Center to trigger the fuel pump run. (0° & 180°) but this doesn't validate the spark timing. 

[warmas]

DR:

I concur.

[warmas]

Good evening all.

I verified the hes assembly functions properly. Both sensors send their signal at the proper time.

I managed to fire the engine by powering the hes assembly separately from its Motronic harness, and connecting only the ignition signal to the Motronic harness. The engine fired on raw gas introduced into the cylinders. This was a good thing.

 

I think my problem lies in a corrupt hes harness from the plug to the sensors. I made the harness, apparently poorly. The ignition signal and the ground wire seem to short together sonewhere. I may be best to make another harness.

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, warmas said:

Good evening all.

I verified the hes assembly functions properly. Both sensors send their signal at the proper time.

I managed to fire the engine by powering the hes assembly separately from its Motronic harness, and connecting only the ignition signal to the Motronic harness. The engine fired on raw gas introduced into the cylinders. This was a good thing.

 

I think my problem lies in a corrupt hes harness from the plug to the sensors. I made the harness, apparently poorly. The ignition signal and the ground wire seem to short together sonewhere. I may be best to make another harness.

Morning   warmas

 

Thanks for the update, but this does bring us back to how or why it was getting a spark at the spark plugs during your earlier testing?

[warmas]

DR:

I agree. The, I think fundamental, problem has been unreliable spark. 

Yesterday, with hes harness connected to Motronic, with Ignition switch on (kill switch is permanently on), spark plugs connected and grounded and visible, hes harness flexure resulted in random, intermittent sparks at plugs. Wow! This event was not duplicated with the hes harness disconnected from the Motronic. Flexure of harness between connector and Motronic while disconnected from hes resulted in no sparks at plugs. Thus my deduction of my poor harness construction, which resulted in intermittent spark.

The spark is caused by the hes ignition signal wire connecting to ground, somewhere other than the ignition hes. I think this connection lies in the harness I made.

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, warmas said:

DR:

I agree. The, I think fundamental, problem has been unreliable spark. 

Yesterday, with hes harness connected to Motronic, with Ignition switch on (kill switch is permanently on), spark plugs connected and grounded and visible, hes harness flexure resulted in random, intermittent sparks at plugs. Wow! This event was not duplicated with the hes harness disconnected from the Motronic. Flexure of harness between connector and Motronic while disconnected from hes resulted in no sparks at plugs. Thus my deduction of my poor harness construction, which resulted in intermittent spark.

The spark is caused by the hes ignition signal wire connecting to ground, somewhere other than the ignition hes. I think this connection lies in the harness I made.

Morning   warmas

 

The original HES pig tail had (or should have anyhow) an RFI (grounded) outer shielding so keep that in mind when rebuilding that HES pigtail. 

[warmas]

My bike is now running properly. The problems were in the hes harness I made. I finally found them. Thanks to all for their ideas and advice. 

[GalR1150R]

Im the new owner of a BMW R1150R 

 

First bike and have learned a lot ? 
 

Ill get to the point, 

 

I service my hall sensor too, bike was unintentionally driven through about 3 feet of water

 

It hydrolock and broke my flywheel and replace new starter, 

 

would crank as long the flywheel was not im the broken place but it would not start 

 

Check the hall sensors and they where toast 

 

So I solder them and made an insulated cable

 

 

I went overboard and they where to thick but the bike ran

 

The next day, the bike would not start after I had been messing with the turn signals 

 

They quit working ( Ill start a thread on that) 

 

So I figured I would rewire the hardnes to the hall sensors again 

 

but instead of using a 6 prong I used a 4 pim conector and ran 3 cables from each hall sensor and about halfway up i united the positive and ground 

 

Bike would not start but I was getting a spark 

 

however the flywheel would get stuck on the broken part and just make a nasty sound 

 

So I replace the flywheel, it was my first mechanic job ever besides changing sparkplugs and coil cables before ok my truck 

 

when all finish, the bike would not start, 

 

and i would backfired super loud after a few attempts 

 

injectors where working, hall sensors had work with bench testing 

 

well it turns out it was a timing issue 

 

i had wire the top hall sensor to the bottom input 

 Switch them 

and walla