Key does not kill power to anything.

[Tony Town]

Drove my bike ( 02 1150rt ) into the garage today,shut it down with the key as I normally do. Plugged in the battery tender to the accs port, hung up my jacket and smelled burning wiresit was the lead from tender to accs port.the 15amp accsport fuse did not blow it melted only the plastic. Tender was not plugged into an outlet.I disconnected the tender and at the same time I heard the fuel pump fire up and the battery,oil and RID came on with the key in the off position. Bike will start and run all lights work with the key off the only way to shut it off is with the kill switch. What have I done?

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Tony Town said:

Drove my bike ( 02 1150rt ) into the garage today,shut it down with the key as I normally do. Plugged in the battery tender to the accs port, hung up my jacket and smelled burning wiresit was the lead from tender to accs port.the 15amp accsport fuse did not blow it melted only the plastic. Tender was not plugged into an outlet.I disconnected the tender and at the same time I heard the fuel pump fire up and the battery,oil and RID came on with the key in the off position. Bike will start and run all lights work with the key off the only way to shut it off is with the kill switch. What have I done?

Morning  Tony Town

 

I sounds like you (well your battery tender) caused a (resisted) short.  Not enough to blow the 15 amp fuse but enough to cause some electrical circuit damage someplace. 

 

Not enough info at the moment to point to a specific area but you could have a couple of 12v  wires melted & fused together.

 

Without a good solid electrical diagnosis background it is going be somewhat difficult to pin down but it can be done with persistence & some basic knowledge. 

 

The important thing is to not get too impatient & cause the problem to go away before finding the root cause of the problem. If you don't find the root of the problem it WILL come back to haunt you at a later time (possibly out on the road someplace).

 

Before getting too far into it you should draw up a fuse box sketch listing all the fuses in order starting at the left hand (shift lever) side.  Then with key OFF & kill switch ON (and engine running if possible) start by moving the handlebars back & forth full travel. (if this stops the engine & turns dash off then stop right there & post back here) 

 

Next, with key OFF & kill switch ON (and engine running if possible)  start pulling each fuse one at a time  to see if any will shut the dash off & stop the engine from running. Note if the removed fuse ONLY stops the engine from running or stops the engine AND turns the dash off. (this info will hopefully give us a starting point)

 

You will probably end up having to remove the fuel tank (carefully & gently) so as to not disturb any under-tank wiring) so you can access the under-tank wires & wire connectors.  

 

It might be as simple as a failed ignition switch or as difficult as some (hidden) fused  (shorted) wire harness wires. 

 

Hopefully the fuse-pull-test will give us a starting point. 

 

 

[Tony Town]

Good morning D.R.     Thanks in advance for the help electricity is not one of my best skills but I keep trying.   With bike running turning the handlebars lock to lock several times had no effect key on or off. With key off I pulled fuses 1 shuts bike off rid goes off, 2 tail light is not on so nothing happened,3 rid stays on,4 horn works,5 bike shuts off fuel pump shuts off,6 bike shuts off fuel pump shuts off,7 heated grips work with bike running I pulled the fuse and didnt observe anything happening.        Key on fuse 1 bike shuts off brake light works, 2 tail light off,3 rid stays on,4 no horn, 5 bike shuts off no fuel pump,6 bike shuts off no fuel pump,7 grips working pulled fuse and nothing happened.  Nothing turned the dash off.

[dirtrider]

27 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

 With key off I pulled fuses 1 shuts bike off rid goes off, 

Morning  Tony Town

 

This will give me enough  to start looking into the circuits involved.  (if this is true)

 

Fuse 1 should not kill the engine (only the dash functions) so are you counting the far left hand fuse as #1? 

 

Does (BOTH) the RID quit working & the engine quit running when removing any other fuse? There are other fuses that will shut off one or the other (normal) but the fuse that shuts both off together is probably the best starting point. 

 

 

[Tony Town]

With key on or off pulling the fuse 5th from the left ( gear shift side) bike shuts off and rid display has only clock showing no temp or fuel. With key off pulling fuse1st from left shuts off bike and rid has only the clock showing.

[9Mary7]

[Tony Town]

Would there be any point to pulling apart the key switch?

[King Herald]

19 hours ago, Tony Town said:

Would there be any point to pulling apart the key switch?

 

You could simply unplug the ignition switch connector block underneath the fuel tank, to isolate the ignition switch from the circuit and rule it out. 

 

The actual switch part is a small plastic device that slips into the bottom of the ignition switch itself, released by a tiny grub screw, DR has some excellent pics that show it in detail. He posted them on a thread I started about the switch issue, worth a look if you do find the switch is the problem. 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

21 hours ago, Tony Town said:

Would there be any point to pulling apart the key switch?

Morning Tony Town

 

Yes, there could be something gained in doing that but accessing the switch connector is difficult without removing the fuel tank. 

 

If you are willing to dig in deep enough to disconnect the switch connector then that will prove out or eliminate the switch. 

 

I was hopeful that we could possibly diagnosis this without that much effort. 

[Tony Town]

D.R. Iam willing to dig deeper into this as our riding season is all but over here in Ontario Can. but for now I am off for a 2 week vacation. I anyone has any ideas please post them here ill catch up when i return. Thanks 

[dirtrider]

35 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. Iam willing to dig deeper into this as our riding season is all but over here in Ontario Can. but for now I am off for a 2 week vacation. I anyone has any ideas please post them here ill catch up when i return. Thanks 

Morning Tony Town

 

A couple of thoughts, 

 

You might want to completely disconnect your battery before leaving for 2 weeks.  You really don't know what is bunt or possibly shorted & your don't want to come home to find your garage burnt down.

 

On the switch disconnect, be very careful & methodical in the tank removal & other preliminary work as the worst thing you could do is disturb the problem so it goes away by itself. If it goes away by itself then you might not find the root cause but it will probably return later at the worst possible time.   

[Tony Town]

Removed side panels but not the gas tank yet to get a better look at the wiring but you really cant see much. Nothing obvious anyway. Before I lift the tank I should mention that last year I removed the brake servo using the no cut method. The brakes have worked great,is there anything on that printed circuit board that would cause my problem?

[dirtrider]

7 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

Removed side panels but not the gas tank yet to get a better look at the wiring but you really cant see much. Nothing obvious anyway. Before I lift the tank I should mention that last year I removed the brake servo using the no cut method. The brakes have worked great,is there anything on that printed circuit board that would cause my problem?

Afternoon  Tony Town

 

That is kind of a yes & no deal. Obviously with BOTH battery direct 12v and ignition switch-on feed entering the ABS electronics there is the possibility of the battery 12v back-feeding the ignition switch circuits. Not real likely but possible, so unplugging the ABS electronic box as a test probably isn't a bad idea just to eliminate that as a possible cause.  

[Tony Town]

Thanks D.R. Iwill check that and the ignition switch next when I lift the tank.

[Tony Town]

I lifted the gas tank, disconnected abs electrics that's not the issue but I did find this. The gas tank has been pinching this bundle of wires where they turn up following the bird cage to behind the dash. I can't see any bare wires the cloth wrap crumbled when I rubbed it. Could this cause my problem?

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Tony Town said:

I lifted the gas tank, disconnected abs electrics that's not the issue but I did find this. The gas tank has been pinching this bundle of wires where they turn up following the bird cage to behind the dash. I can't see any bare wires the cloth wrap crumbled when I rubbed it. Could this cause my problem?

 

Afternoon Tony

 

From what I can see in the picture that probably isn't the cause but keep that area in mind if disconnecting the ignition switch doesn't  help.

[Tony Town]

I inspected the ignition switch today and didn't really see anything wrong just normal wear. With the switch apart I have power at the centre,5 o'clock and 7 o'clock with the wire harness being 12 o'clock.

[dirtrider]

15 hours ago, Tony Town said:

I inspected the ignition switch today and didn't really see anything wrong just normal wear. With the switch apart I have power at the centre,5 o'clock and 7 o'clock with the wire harness being 12 o'clock.

 

Afternoon Tony Town

 

Did your problem go away with the ignition switch taken apart?  THAT, should tell us what side of the system the problem is on. 

 

If you give me the wire  colors going to the switch terminals,   Center,   5 o'clock,  &  7 o'clock  I can tell you more.  

 

 

[dirtrider]

More__

 

If the problem is still there then you might try removing the load relief (load shed) relay from the fuse box as a quick test, if the contacts in that load relief relay are fused then that could back-feed the ignition switch side contacts. The ignition switch center contact should have 12v B+ all the time.   

[Tony Town]

Pulled the load relief relay and all that happened was the headlight went out. As for the switch wires I can't get the switch apart to see the colours and I have dropped one of the 4 little springs so a new switch will likely have to be sourced.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Tony Town said:

Pulled the load relief relay and all that happened was the headlight went out. As for the switch wires I can't get the switch apart to see the colours and I have dropped one of the 4 little springs so a new switch will likely have to be sourced.

Afternoon Tony Town

 

 

Does your problem go away with the ignition switch taken apart?  THAT, should tell us what side of the system the problem is on. 

[Tony Town]

D.R. no with the switch disassembled as in the picture everything is still powered up.

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. no with the switch disassembled as in the picture everything is still powered up.

Afternoon Tony

 

OK, that will help (I think), 

 

So we need to start isolating things_

 

Try removing Fuse #1 to see if problem goes away_
 
Try removing ABS warning relay   (in fuse box)  unless it was already removed when ABS was disabled. 

 

Try removing engine-electronics-relay (in fuse box)_

Try removing Fuse #10  (radio), If you don't have a radio still see if there is a fuse 10 to remove_

[Tony Town]

Do I need to reassemble the ignition switch?

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Tony Town said:

Do I need to reassemble the ignition switch?

Morning Tony

 

Not yet, if the problem is STILL there with switch disassembled then we need to go after possible other problem areas UNTIL the problem goes away (or until we locate the problem). 

 

If the problem is still there with the ign switch disassembled then something else is back-feeding the ignition circuit but it isn't back-feeding through the ignition switch. 

[Tony Town]

Morning D.R.    With the battery connected ,key switch disassembled I  have power to headlight, horn, clock, flashers, rid, starter, brake light and dash lights( bat) oil neutral and abs warning flashing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   FUSE 1  REMOVED  rid, clock, starter, dash lights on. Horn headlight, flashers, starter, brake light off.                                                                                                        ABS RELAY  removed with abs servo.                                                                                                                                                                                                                     MOTRONIC    headlight, horn, clock, flashers, starter, brakelight, dash lights on, rid off                                                                                                                                 FUSE 10          no change everything is on

[dirtrider]

59 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

Morning D.R.    With the battery connected ,key switch disassembled I  have power to headlight, horn, clock, flashers, rid, starter, brake light and dash lights( bat) oil neutral and abs warning flashing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   FUSE 1  REMOVED  rid, clock, starter, dash lights on. Horn headlight, flashers, starter, brake light off.                                                                                                        ABS RELAY  removed with abs servo.                                                                                                                                                                                                                     MOTRONIC    headlight, horn, clock, flashers, starter, brakelight, dash lights on, rid off                                                                                                                                 FUSE 10          no change everything is on

Afternoon Tony

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "RELAY  removed with abs servo.   MOTRONIC    headlight, horn, clock, flashers, starter, brake light, dash lights on, rid off"   

 

Please explain this in much more detail?    What does "RELAY  removed with abs servo" mean?

 

 

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R. I removed the abs relay when I removed the failed servo unit per the instructions found on ADVRIDER posted by UKGSER to eliminate the warning light on the dash, the brakes and lights have worked flawlessly since. Using this persons method involved no wire cutting or splicing just plug and play.

[dirtrider]

41 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. I removed the abs relay when I removed the failed servo unit per the instructions found on ADVRIDER posted by UKGSER to eliminate the warning light on the dash, the brakes and lights have worked flawlessly since. Using this persons method involved no wire cutting or splicing just plug and play.

Afternoon Tony

 

OK, that helps explain that.

 

So far nothing that you have removed has eliminated the problem is that correct???

 

We are running out of things to simply disconnect, the things that can easily back-feed the ignition circuit are:  ABS module, ABS warning light relay, engine electronics relay, radio (fuse 11), #1 fuse. 

 

Do you have any other added accessories, or non OEM added relays on that motorcycle?  If so we need to be aware of those. 

 

Otherwise it is sort of pointing to a wire short between a battery 12v circuit & one the of the green-wire ignition or accessory circuits. 

 

Most common place for something like that is at wire harness running along the right side of the steering neck (right where the wire harness bends the most when turning the handlebars). So you might try moving the handlebars lock to lock when the problem is happening to see if the bar movement effects the problem.  

 

 

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R. I have no added accessories or relays, the problem  just started out of no where and nothing we have tried so far has cured it. Turning the bars lock to lock has no effect, i will check the right side  (brake side) harness tomorrow.

[dirtrider]

59 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. I have no added accessories or relays, the problem  just started out of no where and nothing we have tried so far has cured it. Turning the bars lock to lock has no effect, i will check the right side  (brake side) harness tomorrow.

Afternoon Tony

 

We are running out of easy things to check. 

 

It could be a wire harness short between a large red wire & a green wire (usually shorts happen to chassis ground so blow fuses or cause wire burning but a short between a red (12v) wire & green ign circuit wire would not blow a fuse or cause burning.

 

It would be remotely possible for the Motronic (fueling computer) to short 12v B+ to a green ign circuit but that is something I have never seen happen. If you can't find anything else then this will have to be looked into.   

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R.   I spent some time this morning poking, prodding and flexing the wire harness to no avail so I feel I am at the end of this search now I have to decide what comes next sale or dust collector.

[Skywagon]

DR… is it possible to pull all fuses and relays to kill power and then put them back one at a time and maybe isolate to a circuit. As usual I don’t know what I’m doing but just asking?

[dirtrider]

16 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R.   I spent some time this morning poking, prodding and flexing the wire harness to no avail so I feel I am at the end of this search now I have to decide what comes next sale or dust collector.

Afternoon Tony

 

Well, someplace somewhere you have 12v shorting to one of your ignition circuits. 

 

First: try removing the flasher relay from the fuse box as a quick test___

 

My next suggestion is to remove the fuel tank so you can see what is happening underneath. 

 

Next completely unplug the ignition switch pigtail from the motorcycle harness. (this completely eliminates that)

 

Then next fully unplug your ABS module (this completely eliminates that)

 

If problem is still there then take a couple of good CLEAR pictures (or make a diagram) then remove ALL the fuses & all the relays from the fuse box.

 

If this stops the problem, then one by one reinstall the fuses, if the problem didn't come back then one by one reinstall the relays until the problem comes back (we need to try to find the circuit that is effecting your problem)   

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

DR… is it possible to pull all fuses and relays to kill power and then put them back one at a time and maybe isolate to a circuit. As usual I don’t know what I’m doing but just asking?

Afternoon David

 

Actually I was just writing that up as you posted this so the answer is yes.

[Skywagon]

See how much you have taught me over the years...  

[Tony Town]

D.R. g Gas tank is still off from a few days ago, key switch is still apart cause I lost 1 spring but not unplugged from the harness. How do I unplug the flasher relay? removed all fuses and relays, unplugged abs electrics bat, oil and neutral light still on. Thanks for your patience.

[dirtrider]

39 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. g Gas tank is still off from a few days ago, key switch is still apart cause I lost 1 spring but not unplugged from the harness. How do I unplug the flasher relay? removed all fuses and relays, unplugged abs electrics bat, oil and neutral light still on. Thanks for your patience.

Afternoon Tony

 

You need to move the little tab holding it in, then lift it out far enough to get at the bottom of the relay, once you get access to the bottom then there is a little lever or cam type deal that you need to flip then the relay will unplug from the harness.   

[Tony Town]

D.R. OK I'll get it tomorrow.

[Tony Town]

D.R. Removing the flasher relay had no effect, is the key switch connecter up in the dash beside the fog light switch? Would be good to know before I cut any wire ties to free up some wire.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. Removing the flasher relay had no effect, is the key switch connecter up in the dash beside the fog light switch? Would be good to know before I cut any wire ties to free up some wire.

Morning Tony

 

Just follow the pigtail from the switch back to the harness.

 

If the  flasher relay had no effect then we are running out of (easy) things to check.

 

About the only things remaining is the Motronic (fueling computer) & the power windshield relay system.

 

Could also be a short between 12v B+ in the main wire harness & an ignition circuit. With no fuses blown then that that would probably be a flex fracture, or a place worn though by a non metallic item as metal wear-through usually results in a short to ground with burnt wires or blown fuses. Or possibly a screw run through the wire harness somewhere.

 

Your motorcycle isn't a  converted RT-P (police)  motorcycle is it? 

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R. No not an RT-P.

[Tony Town]

D.R. No way my fingers are going to fit up there and I am not going to strip the whole front end off. I am so frustrated.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Tony Town said:

D.R. No way my fingers are going to fit up there and I am not going to strip the whole front end off. I am so frustrated.

Afternoon Tony

 

I just went over the 2002 1150RT wiring diagram looking for items that have both 12v from the battery & an ignition circuit going to them.

 

We have covered most so about all that  remains is the Motronic (fueling computer) but disconnecting that will keep the engine from running & also kill off some of the engine control functions so you have to look carefully to see if disconnecting the Motronic kills normally controlled things or removes "all"  your problems. 

 

Other than that it is the windshield control relays & possibly disconnecting  the L/H side handlebar switch pod assembly. 

 

Other than the above then possibly a short in the main wire harness someplace. 

 

Any chance that your motorcycle has anything else added like a Techlusion fuel controller or added lights or ??????  

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R.  I have had an issue with the left signal not working on occasion so that's a possibility, where are the windshield relays? Nothing added its all original. I may take a while to get this checked out, I have some family commitments to attend. Thanks again.

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, Tony Town said:

D.R.  I have had an issue with the left signal not working on occasion so that's a possibility, where are the windshield relays? Nothing added its all original. I may take a while to get this checked out, I have some family commitments to attend. Thanks again.

Morning Tony

 

The windshield relays are under the top of the front fairing so the front upper plastic has to come off to access. 

 

Don't go there yet as removing fuse # 1 should disconnect the ignition side 12v to the windshield relays  & removing fuse #3 should disconnect the full time 12v to the relays so (IF) the windshield relays are/were the problem then removing all the fuses should have stopped the cross-feed in that circuit (so I'm pretty sure the windshield relay circuits are probably not the problem).

 

 

[Tony Town]

D.R. I have found the problem my son ( Volkswagen tech) suggested to check the fuse box wiring so I stuck my finger in one of the gaps and wiggled the wires I could touch. the key switch now works as it should so I have to find a way in there to repair or replace the damage or whatever is wrong. Looks like a tricky little job.

[MichiganBob]

Sounds promising.

[King Herald]

I once planned to remove the fuse box from my 1100r as part of some daft seat lowering exercise....but it looked such a complicated operation I gave up before I really got underway. It would appear the frame has to be pulled apart to get to it, so tightly are all the wires squeezed underneath it. I don't envy you trying to fix yours. 

[Tony Town]

Ok I m in. Pulled the rear wheel, removed the four screws and two bolts holding the fuse box in then with some gentle persausion the bottom half dropped out exposing all the wiring. I found the red wire from #3 fuse melted to the green and black from#1 fuse also the mauve wire( gray in wire diagram) melted to it. How can I get these wires out of the fuse block to do a proper repair?