Teslas crashing into motorcycles.

[AviP]

Let me start by saying that Tesla's AutoPilot is a work in progress and cannot be relied on 100%. As such, we need to add "staying out of the way of a Tesla" to our repertoire of safety measures. The headlights of all current Tesla models are fairly recognizable, day or night. If you see them in your rearview mirror, either accelerate away or change lanes or let it pass. But never let it be behind you, either close or afar.

 

That said, here's the 2 stories that should bother anyone who rides. Both incidents occured at night.

https://mynewsla.com/riverside/2022/07/07/motorcyclist-killed-in-collision-with-tesla-on-riverside-freeway/

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/family-celebrating-life-of-motorcyclist-hit-killed-by-tesla-on-i-15

 

NHTSA was investigating Autopilot before these fatal motorcycle accidents.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/09/tesla-autopilot-is-threatened-by-nhtsa-as-investigation-gets-closer-to-recall/

 

NHTSA has added both these accidents to it's list of investigations.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-investigates-california-tesla-crash-that-killed-motorcyclist-2022-07-18/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/nhtsa-will-investigate-tesla-crash-that-killed-motorcyclist-in-draper-utah-194593.html

 

Hopefully the NHTSA will not be swayed by Musk and will act forcefully.

 

Be safe.

[wbw6cos]

FYI, there is another thread with a FortNine video about it.

 

 

[TEDZ]

If it can't be resolved by the NHTSA, then maybe what Americans do best will solve it.  Outrageous litigation.

[Hosstage]

Of course, because idiots driving cars have to blame someone for their lack of driving skills.

[JamesW]

Wow, it is getting scary out there for sure.  My neighbor bought a Tesla model Y and insisted I drive the car which I did and I wouldn't have one of them.  Now he's having issues with the drivers seat having a mind of its own and moving forwards and backwards while he's sitting in it and not touching the controls.  I know of another guy that traded his Tesla in on a Toyota Prius after the struts failed twice and had to be replaced.  I wouldn't have one of these cars and I don't think 1000 pound lithium batteries are here to stay and maybe Teslas are really just a flash in the pan like so many things are.  One can hope so but then you have the idiot factor at work as in they will buy anything.

[Skywagon]

This Tesla crash into MC has caused a new alarm bell to go off for me. My neighborhood is full of Teslas. I watch my mirrors when stopped, but now I think I need to be even more cautious. I swear about 1 in 10 cars here are Teslas. On my street of 12 houses there are 7 families with Teslas 

[RogerC60]

These incidents and the discussion of them on the forums has caused me to add "being followed by a Tesla" to my list of things to actively look for and avoid while riding. Now I just need to learn how to quickly identify them in my rear-view mirrors.

[TEDZ]

Skywagon, come to SE Iowa, I see about 1 a week, unless I venture to that hotbed of progressiveness, Iowa City.

Of course, you'll then be dodging deer.  Nice tasty deer.

[fourteenfour]

EDIT: https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/07/business/tesla-euro-ncap-autopilot/index.html

Tesla got the highest grade in EU safety tests for Autopilot

 

Since I own a Tesla and one with the full self driving beta software...  and have had this car for four years now.

 

Statistics are fun, nearly half of motorcycle accidents are caused by another vehicle.  Over five thousand deaths per year... and half with another vehicle so nearly eight per day and the only two we hear about are involving a Tesla.. 

 

Tesla's are getting highlighted for two major reasons. 

 

The first is because Musk is news and Tesla is news.  Tesla and Musk are laying waste to the two large UAW backed legacy automakers. 

 

The second is the work of two people in particular who both have competing interest.

 

Dr. Mary Cummings who was placed on the NHTSA was ordered to recuse herself from any work related to Tesla because of her past history of going after Musk and Tesla after it was found her deleted twitter history showed she was serving on the Board of Directors of a competing self driving company https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/nhtsa-safety-advisor-dr-mary-missy-cummings-ordered-to-recuse-herself-from-any-matters-relating-to-tesla/

 

Another person leading the charge is Dan O'Dowd who hides the fact his company is also competing in this space https://insideevs.com/news/580991/tesla-attacked-by-billionaire-senate-candidate/  He like to fund and even post op-ed articles to major newspapers and magazines.

 

 

I have never had my Tesla overtake a motorcycle day or night while on auto pilot and under the new FSD beta it works even better. Even if the Tesla does not place an object on the driving visualization provided to the driver it can know something is there. The newest FSD Beta now has a picture that it can use for every object it cannot label.

 

Now does it have issues. Oh yeah, it drives like your grandma at times making you wonder why it is so hesitant. Driving on local roads is both fun and oddly annoying, the annoying being please GO! If anything the worst part is they are not using local map data correctly for speed limits so unless it sees a speed limit sign it defaults to 25 but you can easily override this.

 

So suspicions on the two cases where a Tesla driver drove over a motorcycle?  One issue some Tesla owners have with autopilot and full self driving, they are two separate features, is that you can easily override it by using the accelerator. When you do so it puts up a large message on the visualization portion of the screen stating very clearly that your actions are negating automatic emergency braking. FSD will usually intervene regardless as it really never wants to hit anything even if you try. AP doesn't do this. Which by the way apparently is an issue in most cars with adaptive cruise control. They are fine until you use the accelerator. 

 

 

Conclusion, we have to wait to find out if the cars were truly using autopilot. This is the default assumption the police and news like to make and many drivers in accidents have learned to claim such as if that excuses them from responsibility. You are always responsible if you are behind the wheel. Then if on autopilot was the driver overriding the system by using the accelerator? I still think they should override the driver's idiocy as do others but there are many who actually don't. Plus don't get fooled by those meme videos showing Tesla drivers asleep at the wheel. Nearly all have been shown to be staged. My car nags me so much that I don't see how I could get away with , FSD even tracks where I look and I can make it mad by simply looking to the left or right for a few too many seconds.

 

 

 

 

 

[AviP]

Good to know those facts FourteenFour. But at the same time, there are many well documented facts about Tesla AutoPilot and FSD failures (too many to list). As an AI learning software that is constantly improving with every upgrade, we do not need to be the guinea pigs that this software learns on. While you seem to be a responsible Tesla driver, I'm not sure I can say the same for all Tesla drivers. 

[Hosstage]

The percentage of irresponsible Tesla drivers is probably much lower than drivers in general, but they are in the spotlight just due to the attention put on the tech by Tesla itself.

[fourteenfour]

On 9/8/2022 at 4:45 PM, AviP said:

Good to know those facts FourteenFour. But at the same time, there are many well documented facts about Tesla AutoPilot and FSD failures (too many to list). As an AI learning software that is constantly improving with every upgrade, we do not need to be the guinea pigs that this software learns on. While you seem to be a responsible Tesla driver, I'm not sure I can say the same for all Tesla drivers. 

 

You do realize you only hear about cases with Tesla. We do not see call outs for other brands hitting objects when under the ACC and that does happen quite a bit. The EU tests pretty much show which brands are not good at avoiding collisions. Heck, recently an European? insurance company had to apologize for their video showing how easy it was for a Tesla to catch fire when it was revealed they used an incendiary device to do it

 

Tesla is big news. Tesla is smacking down UAW staffed companies in the US who are still struggling to compete; though I suspect GM isn't really trying yet because they artificially limit the number of Lyriq, Bolts, and even Hummers.  They are simply selling sufficient numbers to earn ZEV credits to sell their gas guzzlers in California.

 

It really comes down to a bunch of internet people who do not own one or ever been in one. 

 

[donbmw]

When is the public going to realize that there is nothing green about Electric  Vehicles. Where does the materials to make batteries come from , how ie the electricity produced to charge. 

[Hosstage]

The amount of raw and ancillary materials needed to make one ev battery.

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/just-how-clean-and-green-is-your-electric-car/

[AviP]

I created this post to raise awareness of another potential hazard that affects motorcycles. Kindly stay on topic as we lack the protection that a cage offers. This thread is not about merits or pitfalls of BEVs.

 

Back on topic, I would like to make an observation. It's human nature to be distracted. It's highly unlikely that a driver can stay focused when his sole responsibility is taken away with AutoPilot or FSD. That is the hazard we motorcyclists face. It's not that AutoPilot/FSD is defective, which it most likely will always be as every corner case is not programmable. It's not that the driver is irresponsible, it's human nature.

 

Have you tried doing nothing for 2 minutes? Now try doing nothing on a 30 minute commute! That's my simple point. 

 

We pride ourselves on ABS, ATGATT, defensive driving, etc. This is just another potential hazard. Let's take note, learn and adapt.

 

Be safe!!!

[Hosstage]

I've often thought the same, how does one stay alert and ready to intervene IF necessary? It's easier just to stay engaged and hands on from the beginning.

It either has to be full auto all the time not requiring any human interaction at all, or full time hands on, it can't be both.

I think one of the stupidest commercials is for Chevy trucks and their auto drive system, showing the drivers clapping their hands as they drive down the street, that they don't have to hold the wheel.  It just seems stupid.

 

[Rougarou]

On 9/11/2022 at 6:27 AM, fourteenfour said:

It really comes down to a bunch of internet people who do not own one or ever been in one. 

 

 

What does this statement have to do with anything.

 

If I see many reports that a Porsche is a fast car, I can determine, without ever being in one or owning one, that a Porsche is a fast car.  

If I see many reports that a Pinto would catch fire if hit from the rear, I can determine, without ever owning one or being in one, that a Pinto would catch fire if hit from the rear.

 

This ain't Consumer Reports fraudulent hit on the Samurai, this is actual real world reporting.

 

8 hours ago, AviP said:

 

Have you tried doing nothing for 2 minutes? Now try doing nothing on a 30 minute commute! That's my simple point. 

 

 

Try standing a post, in a 5x5 cage from 2400-0600 on a Saturday morning,.......yep, many folks have done "nothing" for hours on end.

 

7 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I've often thought the same, how does one stay alert and ready to intervene IF necessary? It's easier just to stay engaged and hands on from the beginning.

It either has to be full auto all the time not requiring any human interaction at all, or full time hands on, it can't be both.

I think one of the stupidest commercials is for Chevy trucks and their auto drive system, showing the drivers clapping their hands as they drive down the street, that they don't have to hold the wheel.  It just seems stupid.

 

 

Even "hands on engaged" does not keep the driver situationally aware.  With the invention of "mirrors" drivers seem to be unable to rotate their necks as they "think" the new invention of "mirrors" cover their full surroundings.

[Hosstage]

22 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Even "hands on engaged" does not keep the driver situationally aware.  With the invention of "mirrors" drivers seem to be unable to rotate their necks as they "think" the new invention of "mirrors" cover their full surroundings.

Maybe so, but they cannot say it was the car's fault and try and sue the manufacturer for their own shortcomings.

[taylor1]

3 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

but they cannot say it was the car's fault and try and sue the manufacturer for their own shortcomings.

Oh on the contrariar ! In this era of where no one is responsible for their own actions, it will be more than possible. There will also be an idiot judge that will agree

[roadscholar]

https://www.carandbike.com/news/mercedes-to-accept-liability-when-autonomous-drive-pilot-is-engaged-2838775

[9Mary7]

Not much of a stretch when it will only travel at 39.42 mph or less in "accepted liability mode".......don't get me wrong, I love me some MBZ!

[Motorhead1977]

[roadscholar]

On 9/13/2022 at 8:49 AM, 9Mary7 said:

Not much of a stretch when it will only travel at 39.42 mph or less in "accepted liability mode".......don't get me wrong, I love me some MBZ!

 

True, but it's a start. A highly unlikely but worst case scenario  is 2 cars traveling in opposite directions at 40mph is an 80mph collision.

 

On one hand they know much of the automotive world considers them an industry leader in certain areas and they want to get the ball rolling. And two, if other manufacturers are held to the same standards they'll think twice before letting a cheaper, half-assed version out on the roads.