Twin Spark Plug options

[Hadabadachada]

Hello folks.

ive been looking around to replace my plugs again. I’ve noticed sometimes on a cold start it’ll take quite awhile to actually start. 
I should probably do my fuel filter again, but when I do that I’ll probably replace the fuel pump as well. All the dampers are gone and everything, just time to freshen up in there.

when it does finally start it runs fine, normal.

so I’m thinking I’ll just swap the plugs for starters. As the bike does eat oil, and I’ve noticed in the past, a little oil on the bottom plug threads.

im gonna grab some iridiums for the hell of it, but the reason for posting this topic… 

 

ive seen on some other forums, specifically for the 1100S which I have, that people have put a DCPR6 instead of the DCPR7 on the bottom plugs because they say it’s a hotter plug, better for the oil consumption.

 

im wondering if anyone else can chime in on this with personal experience.

 

 

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Hello folks.

ive been looking around to replace my plugs again. I’ve noticed sometimes on a cold start it’ll take quite awhile to actually start. 
I should probably do my fuel filter again, but when I do that I’ll probably replace the fuel pump as well. All the dampers are gone and everything, just time to freshen up in there.

when it does finally start it runs fine, normal.

so I’m thinking I’ll just swap the plugs for starters. As the bike does eat oil, and I’ve noticed in the past, a little oil on the bottom plug threads.

im gonna grab some iridiums for the hell of it, but the reason for posting this topic… 

 

ive seen on some other forums, specifically for the 1100S which I have, that people have put a DCPR6 instead of the DCPR7 on the bottom plugs because they say it’s a hotter plug, better for the oil consumption.

 

im wondering if anyone else can chime in on this with personal experience.

 

 

Evening  Hadabadachada

 

When it comes to the lower spark plugs, you could probably put in the hottest plug you can find & they will still oil foul when parked if you have an oil burning engine. Those hot plugs will probably run cleaner once the  parked-drain-down-oil burns off but then you end up with pre-ignition problems.  

 

You might ride that motorcycle as normal until it is up to full operating temperature, then allow it to cool off  enough to remove the lower plugs, THEN see if they look oil fouled. If they don't then they are firing OK & hotter plugs won't help a cold start lower plug fouling issue. If they still look oil fouled right after riding then possibly a slightly hotter spark plug will help.

 

Some oil wicking down the lower spark plug threads is pretty normal unless you just ran that bike at freeway speeds for a couple of hours then checked right then. 

 

On the slow starting, is it cranking over fast enough with the battery voltage staying at 10v or higher while cranking? If not then you might find out why it isn't (like a--starter issue, or battery issue, or cable/connection voltage drop issue)

 

If the battery voltage is staying above 10v while cranking then next  put a voltmeter on the fuel injector green wire to see if the injector supply voltage is low when cranking (on the later 1150 twin spark engines BMW added a 2nd load relief relay to increase coil & injector voltage & THIS really helped cold engine starting)    

 

Also, try holding the twist grip at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle as you try to start it. (this can sometimes help a slow starting boxer engine) 

[The Fabricator]

On the  'As the bike does eat oil,' issue...

The oil quantity is almost a gallon.

What would happen if there was only 3 quarts?

Nothing.

My bike also 'eats oil' until I started checking it ON THE SIDE STAND.

Now it is stabile.

How much oil is there on the side stand?

Don't know.

Enough.

I have dealt with several 'oil eaters'.  

My experience with oil burners is, the more you keep the level 'proper', the more it 'eats'.

Has to do with oil sloshing around in the sump onto the crankshaft webs, then onto the cylinder walls, and the oil rings not controlling that amount of oil.

Reduce the sump oil level, reduce the slosh amount.

As long as there is enough oil,  all is good.

 

My take on hard starting is battery health, followed by TB synch., fast idle setting.

[Hadabadachada]

Thanks folks. 
I do notice it gets low enough and relaxes. I’ll have to check the battery health. I ride it everyday at least 30 miles usually more like 70 ish. Long jaunts on the highway 70-100 mph ish. It may get 2 or 3 days off a month.

I gotta check the spark on the bottom plugs . I’ve replaced the main coils when one of them was bad last year. Secondary is original. 
I’ll have to check the TBs, for balance anyway, haven’t gone back after rebuilding the TBs and resetting everything. Idles fine. I deleted the fast idle cable at that time, also replaced cables. 

wonder how easy it is to bump start. 
it usually cranks first couple of turns, then I give it some gas, ride off. But when it doesn’t crank right away, it’ll just spin and spin, giving it gas, spins, let it sit, sometimes it’ll go sometimes it’ll spin, might turn the key off and on, might spin again might start. But when it does start it’s like normal. I haven’t figured out a technique for it.

 

if it did this last year, didn’t start right away, I’d turn the gas and try again and bam. 
not so easy this time

ill start with the plugs, they need eyeballed anywho.

[dirtrider]

Morn

8 hours ago, The Fabricator said:

On the  'As the bike does eat oil,' issue...

The oil quantity is almost a gallon.

What would happen if there was only 3 quarts?

Nothing.

My bike also 'eats oil' until I started checking it ON THE SIDE STAND.

Now it is stabile.

How much oil is there on the side stand?

Don't know.

Enough.

I have dealt with several 'oil eaters'.  

My experience with oil burners is, the more you keep the level 'proper', the more it 'eats'.

Has to do with oil sloshing around in the sump onto the crankshaft webs, then onto the cylinder walls, and the oil rings not controlling that amount of oil.

Reduce the sump oil level, reduce the slosh amount.

As long as there is enough oil,  all is good.

 

My take on hard starting is battery health, followed by TB synch., fast idle setting.

Morning Hadabadachada,  Fabricator

 

Personally, I don't buy into the lower oil level preventing oil sloshing into the spinning crankshaft as reducing oil usage.

 

If you look at the BMW boxer engine cutaway the oil level is WAY below the spinning crankshaft even when at the proper oil level in the sight glass. 

 

What does happen when the oil level gets lower in the crankcase is the oil sump gets larger (more volume), so the same oil usage at a lower oil level looks like it is using less oil due to the oil storage sump having a larger cavity.  

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Hadabadachada

 

I’ve replaced the main coils when one of them was bad last year.--- You would think that if you had a bad coil, upper stick, or lower secondary lost spark, that it would not run as good as you say once started. 

 

Secondary is original.--- Those 1150 coils are pretty solid & seldom if ever go bad. Now, low system voltage TO any of the coils can effect cold engine starting. 

I’ll have to check the TBs, for balance anyway, haven’t gone back after rebuilding the TBs and resetting everything. Idles fine. I deleted the fast idle cable at that time, also replaced cables.--- The TB  cross side balance would have to be WAY off to effect starting, especially if you hold the throttle slightly open during cold engine starting. If it was that far off then it probably wouldn't run very good once started.

Wonder how easy it is to bump start.--- Not easy, but on a warmish engine with good battery voltage it can be done. I usually tow the motorcycle with another motorcycle or with a car or truck. With only a rider & one person pushing (especially with a cold engine) you will probably need a downhill run to get it bump started.   

It usually cranks first couple of turns, then I give it some gas, ride off. But when it doesn’t crank right away, it’ll just spin and spin, giving it gas, spins, let it sit, sometimes it’ll go sometimes it’ll spin, might turn the key off and on, might spin again might start. But when it does start it’s like normal. I haven’t figured out a technique for it.--- You might try turning the key to ON, count to 3 slowly, then turn it off  & count to 5, then turn it back on again & count to 3. Do this a few times then try starting it. This usually purges all the air out of the injector fuel rails. If this helps (confirmed a few times) then it might give you a diagnostic direction to look in. 

 

If it did this last year, didn’t start right away, I’d turn the gas and try again and bam. Not so easy this time--- Just keep trying different things. Do try those voltage tests that I mentioned in an above post as those might point you to something. 

 

I'll start with the plugs, they need eyeballed anywho.--- Never hurts to check the plugs. Or what I used to do is have 2 sets of lower plugs, then try swapping in  known good lower plugs just before could starting. It that improves cold starting then you have a direction to look in. 

[Hadabadachada]

So I got my plugs in the mail. 
didn’t realize the stock recommendation for the bottom plug is an 8, surfing the net turned up a few people who replaced it with a 6. I thought stock was a 7 so the 6 would be one step hotter, turns out people run the bottom plug 2 steps hotter, hope that works fine for my bike. Guess I’ll have to feel for any differences in running.

 

here’s what I pulled out, plugs are left and right respectively, tops and bottoms.

 

don’t know much about reading plugs, maybe you guys can give your opinions.

 

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

So I got my plugs in the mail. 
didn’t realize the stock recommendation for the bottom plug is an 8, surfing the net turned up a few people who replaced it with a 6. I thought stock was a 7 so the 6 would be one step hotter, turns out people run the bottom plug 2 steps hotter, hope that works fine for my bike. Guess I’ll have to feel for any differences in running.

 

here’s what I pulled out, plugs are left and right respectively, tops and bottoms.

 

don’t know much about reading plugs, maybe you guys can give your opinions.

 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Those plugs don't look too bad, you have some electrode wear showing but nothing looks really odd or out of place. I do see signs of a little oil burning on a couple but nothing major or looking like it would effect engine starting. 

 

The color is good (as far as not looking bad) but the plug color is difficult to judge as they came from a ridden motorcycle without any care taken to get only high speed running. 

 

After installing the new plugs, if it still doesn't start any better, then after the first cold cranking (no-start), you might quickly remove the lower spark plugs & post us pictures of those. Maybe we can tell you something from that.  

 

If the new (hotter ) lower plugs don't make any difference in starting then you probably should change back to the stock heat range lower plugs when you get a chance. 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

So I kept reading all over the internet for hours last night about running hotter plugs. And I’d rather not hurt the engine running it too hot. 

and looks like you concur, run the suggested heat range. so I bought some stockers, well, iridiums. 
 

bike started up fine, normal I would say. It doesn’t hate to start, but sometimes it takes a bit. 
I’ll be checking the battery next, just a pain in the ass to get to it, need to make a rig to simplify. 
 

 

Here is 10 miles to work on the new, hotter  bottom plugs, next to the new new ones, doesn’t really matter I guess, but here’s a picture. 

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

So I kept reading all over the internet for hours last night about running hotter plugs. And I’d rather not hurt the engine running it too hot. 

and looks like you concur, run the suggested heat range. so I bought some stockers, well, iridiums. 
 

bike started up fine, normal I would say. It doesn’t hate to start, but sometimes it takes a bit. 
I’ll be checking the battery next, just a pain in the ass to get to it, need to make a rig to simplify. 
 

 

Here is 10 miles to work on the new, hotter  bottom plugs, next to the new new ones, doesn’t really matter I guess, but here’s a picture. 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

The plug on the left looks to have burnt a little oil residue in that 10 mile trip, porcelain is clean so it doesn't look to be burning a lot of oil, probably the oil on that plug is from some oil residue (left from parking overnight) in the bottom of that cylinder.  

 

You really can't tell much as the porcelain's are still nice & white & the electrodes are nice & clean. 

 

Other than oil burning, electrode damage, or piston alloy splashed on the plug  it is fairly difficult to read spark plugs that are used in an engine running no-lead E-10 fuel without having the plugs in hand & using a good magnifying glass.    

[Hadabadachada]

The ones I took out last night have been in the bike for more than 25,000 miles. 

im gonna try these iridiums since folks say they work good. Maybe I just get the stock plugs being cheaper, and change them more often.

 

sorry,

these are the plugs after 10 miles side to side, previous pic was next to a brand new

 

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

The ones I took out last night have been in the bike for more than 25,000 miles. 

im gonna try these iridiums since folks say they work good. Maybe I just get the stock plugs being cheaper, and change them more often.

 

sorry,

these are the plugs after 10 miles side to side, previous pic was next to a brand new

 

 

 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

Still can't tell much, electrodes look good with no signs of oil fouling. A little dark down inside the shells but with only a 10 mile ride that doesn't mean much.   

[Hadabadachada]

Alright, so a few days on, 

still have that trouble starting right up deal.

not every time but it’s happened a couple. 

I did try the ignition on and off a few times deal, to clear air from the lines I believe, that seems to work. 
I tried holding the throttle somewhat open and I that didn’t seem to work this morning, but the on off 4 or 5 times did, on off 3 times didn’t, lol

I wonder if this is telling me I should be looking to replace my fuel pump…

[Hadabadachada]

So it started the bike after a couple cranks this evening after work, not to bad starting, but not immediate. rode home, sat for a half hour, started it back up to go out, started up right away as I’d expect since it’s warm, no issues.

rode it 25 miles, parked, sat for about 3 hours, went to start and it was the worst one yet.

just turned over and and over and over, turned ignition on and off 3 times for a few seconds each, nothing, kept turning ignition on and off, trying, after a few, nothing. People looking at me like, he’s screwed. “Hey you need a jump!?” I said, No thanks! 
rather than, can’t you hear it cranking????

so I just kept cycling the ignition over and over, 3 seconds on, 5 seconds off,

after maybe 6 or 7 cycles I tried again, and it started as per usual, rode off, everything good, runs normal. 

 

I gotta get to the darn battery and check it. Such a pain.
I did hook it to the trickle charger when I got home and it shows charged, as it should be after a ride I guess.

I pulled the motronic fuse and will reinstall in the morning to reset it. 
see how that goes.

[taylor1]

Just for kicks , double check your fuel disconnects. I had a similar problem and one of my disconnects wasn't seated.

[dirtrider]

Morning Hadabadachada

 

As you are finding, troubleshooting intermittent difficult cold engine starting can be difficult, especially if they run properly ONCE started. 

 

Typically you begin by verifying things that it c-o-u-l-d be, if that doesn't pan out then you need to be creative. 

 

I have a small voltmeter with a homemade bracket & ball mount that hooks to a clamp-on GPS ball mount. I use this voltmeter occasionally on difficult to diagnose motorcycle problems (like your difficult cold starting problem).

 

On a problem like yours, I would probably wire that handlebar mounted voltmeter to one of the fuel injector 12v (green) wires then watch the voltmeter when starting.  This will not only show IF the fuel injector 12v feed is coming online for a couple of seconds at key-on, then STAYING on during engine cranking but can also show if the fuel injector circuit is cranking at enough voltage (low injector supply voltage can REALLY lower the fuel spray amount. BMW did add a 2nd load relief relay on later 1150 bikes to supply higher voltage to the lower spark plug coil & fuel injectors.

 

Another thing to try is removing the seat, air filter cover, & air filter, then do some cold start testing. Holding a can of starting ether in one hand & pushing the start button with the other. If it won't fire up then with it cranking give it a quick spray of starting fluid into the air box throttle body intakes.  If it quickly fires that can point a finger to not enough fuel spray from the injectors during cold cranking. (then you have to figure out the WHY).

 

You can also add a simple  N/O push button switch with one wire going  ground to ground & the other going to the low side (non 12v side)  of each fuel injector. Then a simple push of that button DURING engine cranking will give each cylinder an extra shot of fuel. If THAT helps starting then you probably need to look at the oil temperature sensor or intake air sensor for not giving the Motronic a proper temperature input for cold starting. 

 

You might eventually need to hook up a fuel pressure gauge  to verify proper fuel pressure during engine starting (low fuel pressure during engine cranking can really impede engine starting). 

 

You can also put a length of clear fuel hose in the fuel return line to see if you are pumping a lot of air bubbles during those key-on's or are even getting fuel return flow during engine cranking.   

 

Once you have covered the basics you need to be creative in figuring out what is missing during the cold cranking that is causing the no-start. 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

Great info, guess I’ll start at the top of the list. For checking the green wire on the injector, would I peel the cover back and insert a pin to the green wire, kinda like what was suggested for the zeroing the TPS? 
I’m a novice or maybe intermediate do it yourselfer, so wiring and electronics I have a lot to learn. 
 

After pulling the motronic fuse, the bike cold started 2 times that day no issues, but later on in the evening the 3rd cold start took a couple tries.

this morning it took a bit.

while holding the throttle slightly open just holding the starter, I heard a little puff kinda sound, like it almost turned over but just wasn’t enough fuel I assume.
so turned the key off, then back on, wiggled the wires on both injectors and it started up. 
can’t say if that really did anything or if turned the ignition off did something or what. 
but, I need to check the fueling system like you said. Seems like. 
 

maybe a wire is pinched somewhere down under the plastics?

 

i guess I kinda hope whatever it is leads to a failing fuel pump or something easier.

im thinking I may just replace the pump anyway, got a trip I want to take miami to PA and back and maybe the dragon on the way, would hate to have it fail on the way, unless I take a back up.

pretty quick job. Doable on the road anyway.

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Great info, guess I’ll start at the top of the list. For checking the green wire on the injector, would I peel the cover back and insert a pin to the green wire, kinda like what was suggested for the zeroing the TPS? 
I’m a novice or maybe intermediate do it yourselfer, so wiring and electronics I have a lot to learn. 
 

After pulling the motronic fuse, the bike cold started 2 times that day no issues, but later on in the evening the 3rd cold start took a couple tries.

this morning it took a bit.

while holding the throttle slightly open just holding the starter, I heard a little puff kinda sound, like it almost turned over but just wasn’t enough fuel I assume.
so turned the key off, then back on, wiggled the wires on both injectors and it started up. 
can’t say if that really did anything or if turned the ignition off did something or what. 
but, I need to check the fueling system like you said. Seems like. 
 

maybe a wire is pinched somewhere down under the plastics?

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

Probably not a pinched wire, if the high side was grounded it would blow the fuse & if the low side was grounded it would squirt in fuel continually during fuel pump run.  

 

As far as accessing the injector wires, about any way you can without cutting into the wire. I have a little break-out harness that I install between the injector & the harness so it is a simple clip in for testing. 

[Hadabadachada]

One other thing I had happen again today,

it happens once in awhile on a hot engine.

 

For today, i got somewhere, stopped the bike on the corner, killed the engine, made a call, 2 minutes, pushed the starter and the bike fires up on like, half a crank, extra fast, and then a CLANK! kinda sound. Bike running normal. It’s all in the split seconds of cranking the engine, real fast. Doesn’t happen everytime on a hot engine, but only on a hot engine, and when it does happen, that CLACK, it sounds like crap! 
As if the engine spins up ultra fast and clanks the starter or something?

I dunno.

I used to think it was the engine, or Maybe it is, but when someone said maybe the starter, I said, maybe, never thought of that.


One thing that happened today that never happened was after the clank when it started, it was idling super low and rough, like one side wasn’t firing or something. Maybe that goes to the fueling issue. But it came back to idling normal.
 All these little clues. Probably a fueling issue, maybe a battery issue, maybe the starter needs new? 

Fuggin a, getting old.

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

One other thing I had happen again today,

it happens once in awhile on a hot engine.

 

For today, i got somewhere, stopped the bike on the corner, killed the engine, made a call, 2 minutes, pushed the starter and the bike fires up on like, half a crank, extra fast, and then a CLANK! kinda sound. Bike running normal. It’s all in the split seconds of cranking the engine, real fast. Doesn’t happen everytime on a hot engine, but only on a hot engine, and when it does happen, that CLACK, it sounds like crap! 
As if the engine spins up ultra fast and clanks the starter or something?

I dunno.

I used to think it was the engine, or Maybe it is, but when someone said maybe the starter, I said, maybe, never thought of that.


One thing that happened today that never happened was after the clank when it started, it was idling super low and rough, like one side wasn’t firing or something. Maybe that goes to the fueling issue. But it came back to idling normal.
 All these little clues. Probably a fueling issue, maybe a battery issue, maybe the starter needs new? 

Fuggin a, getting old.

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Diagnosing that clack is going to be difficult over the internet unless you can define it's location.

 

It could be the starter itself, or any number of other things. 

 

Was the clutch lever pulled in during that engine start? If not then not only a possible engine or starter problem but if clutch was engaged then that brings the transmission into it. 

 

You might put the trans in gear (engine not running) then roll the motorcycle back & forth within the drivetrain slop to see if you can hear a similar clacking noise.  

 

If you can reproduce the clacking at engine start pay attention to if it only happens with clutch lever in or clutch lever out (this might narrow it down somewhat)

[Hadabadachada]

I pretty much always start the bike in neutral with the clutch engaged.

it sounds like the sound is from the left side. At first I thought maybe it was something with the left head. Park the bike maybe oil is getting down passed the rings and that’s somehow causing something weird. Until a friend said maybe it’s the starter and that made more sense. Now that you say maybe the clutch…we have new possibilities. 
 

I’m not going to worry too much about that at the moment.

 

got sick a few days ago so the bike has been sat up since Saturday. Went out and checked the battery, 12.9v ambient, went to 10v while cranking, no start.

seems battery is fine.

 

I unplugged the injector plugs one side at a time, put the positive of my voltmeter onto what looks like the green wire port, (I don’t really know what I’m doing here but let’s try and get some kinda reading) I get a reading of 3.4v on both, when I try to crank the engine, the voltmeter goes crazy then they go to 10v both exactly the same. 
makes me wonder if I’m doing it right or not, who knows.

I gotta read a book on electronics.

 

[dirtrider]

13 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

 

I unplugged the injector plugs one side at a time, put the positive of my voltmeter onto what looks like the green wire port, (I don’t really know what I’m doing here but let’s try and get some kinda reading) I get a reading of 3.4v on both, when I try to crank the engine, the voltmeter goes crazy then they go to 10v both exactly the same. 
makes me wonder if I’m doing it right or not, who knows.

I gotta read a book on electronics.

 

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

Most voltmeters won't react fast enough to be able to read injector pulses  (that is why your meter went crazy).

 

You need to put the red meter probe on that injector green wire & the black meter probe on a good clean engine ground. 

 

That will show you injector supply voltage. 

[Hadabadachada]

Oh man, I just remembered, my friend gave me some fuel system cleaner stuff, a few weeks ago, it said 1oz per 10 gallons, so I put like a quarter oz per fill up, on 4 or 5 fill ups not to overdo anything.  Didn’t notice much of any difference.

but now that I remember, I wonder if this may have clogged up my fuel filter or even worse damaged the fuel pump?

 

I guess I have to run that return line test to have a look. But since it’s a semi intermittent issue, I wonder if it would show.

 

got back on the bike for the first time in 4 days, tough to start but after a few on and offs with the key, it went. I rode out, got to the red light, bike not fully warmed, pulled clutch to coast to the light, bike died, thankfully it started up, but kinda rough for a second or two, then normal.

 

this morning, bike started right up as per normal. 
 

im thinking of just changing the filter for the heck of it, I think this one has about 30,000 miles on through 11 states over the last year and half or so. 
 

im tempted to just change the pump while I’m in there since that was something I thought about doing last time I changed the filter. Well… maybe not the pump, but all the rubber mounts and everything were totally shot I just left it. So it does need some attention. 
 

maybe pointless without running these other tests but it’s something I think about. 

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Oh man, I just remembered, my friend gave me some fuel system cleaner stuff, a few weeks ago, it said 1oz per 10 gallons, so I put like a quarter oz per fill up, on 4 or 5 fill ups not to overdo anything.  Didn’t notice much of any difference.

but now that I remember, I wonder if this may have clogged up my fuel filter or even worse damaged the fuel pump?

 

I guess I have to run that return line test to have a look. But since it’s a semi intermittent issue, I wonder if it would show.

 

got back on the bike for the first time in 4 days, tough to start but after a few on and offs with the key, it went. I rode out, got to the red light, bike not fully warmed, pulled clutch to coast to the light, bike died, thankfully it started up, but kinda rough for a second or two, then normal.

 

this morning, bike started right up as per normal. 
 

im thinking of just changing the filter for the heck of it, I think this one has about 30,000 miles on through 11 states over the last year and half or so. 
 

im tempted to just change the pump while I’m in there since that was something I thought about doing last time I changed the filter. Well… maybe not the pump, but all the rubber mounts and everything were totally shot I just left it. So it does need some attention. 
 

maybe pointless without running these other tests but it’s something I think about. 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

That fuel system cleaner could have have some effect.

 

Before replacing the filter try running a few fuel return flow tests, if you get a nice flow from the fuel return hose a few times then your filter is probably still OK. 

[Hadabadachada]

Alright, back again.

so, since I’m not enough of a wiz with the diagnostics, I did what any novice with money to spare would and bought a replacement kit from EME without running any of the tests you suggested.

I know I know, and here I am to relay my results.

 

the kit came with an EME fuel pump, (as good or better than stock, or whatever they say, and boy am I questioning this) all the rubber pieces, that are literal pieces left of the originals, real hoses, not those funky plastic ones they sell as replacements, a no name filter, questionable as well, and a new screen, which looks pretty nice.

 

did the swap of everything, the screen was a real bastage to get on but finally did, installed, turned the key on and off a few times to prime it up, and left it for the next morning to hit its first start as a full cold start.

 

the dang pump sounds like crap if I may say so myself, compared to the 65,000 mile original, and I may email them about it, will post videos.

sounds like crap when you turn the key on. 
bike fired right up as normal, and the other 2 cold starts later on in the day were the same, fires right up. 
id guess maybe the hard starting was a clogged up filter. I just replaced everything because they sold it as a kit. 
but now that I hear how this new pump sounds, I’m almost tempted to put the old pump back in, it’s realllllly loud. 
not even like twice as loud as the original, I’m talking you hear the pump over the sound of the bike idling, what’s up with that?

 

makes me wonder about the EME stuff. 
I mean when I replaced my clutch slave, with the eme part, the bearing failed in that in 2000 miles, sad, so I wonder.

I may email them with these clips and see what they say. 
I’d refer to the original as silent compared to this.

 

but the bike fires up properly and feels like it runs just fine. So I’m trying hard to ignore it, but it’s really hard.

[Hadabadachada]

Doesn’t this just seem excessively loud? 
that change in the noise is pulling the brake.

original fuel pump was nowhere near this loud 

[dirtrider]

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Your audio file isn't available.

 

A number of things can cause a loud fuel pump, if the new pump is grounding out (contacting the inside of the tank, or contacting something inside of the tank) it will be noisy.

 

If the pump isolator is not installed correctly, or if the isolator is not preventing the pump from contacting the metal bracket then the pump can be loud. 

 

Obviously if the pump is not built to specs or  incorrectly built it can be loud. 

 

If it is loud enough to bother you then you will probably have to go back in & inspect the pump installation.

 

You might also call EME to see what they suggest. 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

Emailed eme a video about the super loud enduralast fuel pump, they replied immediately and said, yeah, that sounds super loud. 
they two day shipped me a replacement, and a label to ship loud one back, nice. 

as I’m leaving work I hear a kinda pop sound and lose power.

great, pump must have went.

called AAA and they and/or tow companies really fumbled, had to push the bike 6 miles home, that’s another story.

 

Funny all that happens because all day I was like, can’t wait to change this pump when I get home! It’s sitting on my porch!
that was delayed, very tired and late.

 

so next day, took out the unit, and the hose from the pump to the filter was off, guess that was the pop. Maybe the pump was over pressured. Hose clamp was tight on the hose, guess not tight enough. Shrug.
 

replaced the pump, checked all hose clamps, reinstalled, primed, started bike, a lot quieter, GREAT!

 

welllll, we will see….

rode the bike about 50 miles on its first ride last night, everything seems normal, nothing overly loud.

took the bike out today, rode it about 25 miles. Initially on the highway, then 20-30 minutes of stop and go. 
start to notice, hmmm, pump seems a little louder. Not quite as loud as the previous pump, but still…questionable.

maybe it’s just my brain, I have that damn sound programmed in my head at this point, it’s like a trigger, maybe it’s just me..

got to destination, came back to bike about an hour later, started up to leave, head out, still seems semi loud…maybe it’s just normal, I can deal with it…

Drive 15 miles, stop, get some food, 45 minutes later, start up bike to leave, it’s just as loud as the previous super loud  this time, no question, wtf! 
 

time to get on the highway and rip home and put the original stock pump back in, I’m done with this Chinese enduralast crap. 
I assume it’s Chinese, I can only assume I dunno. 
rip it on the highway 15 miles 70-90mph, exit pull up to stoplight, it’s quiet! Like legit quiet, this is how it should be!  can only hear it if I really try. Hmmm.

Took a longer route on the surface streets to burn more gas, and see if the sound picks back up.  sounded like it may have gotten slightly louder between stop lights, but seems relatively normal.

 

im just telling the story in detail for context, since that’s what these forums are for. i don’t think there’s much to be answered, and I suppose it all doesn’t really matter but it’s nice to just tell my stories to people with knowledge. 
 

only other note that makes me question things, trying to figure out the deal is, when I apply the brakes, the sound changes, I assume just power being used by the servo, seems normal.

 

but at stops, no brakes, sometimes I can hear the electrical pump sound fluctuating a little bit. I suppose it could just be the pump working, pumping fuel… but maybe it’s just crap cheap pump talk for I’m cheap don’t trust me, I dunno. 

we will see what happens tomorrow, make my decision weather to swap back to original or not.

or just take the original on my upcoming trip to be able to swap on the side of the road…

 

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Emailed eme a video about the super loud enduralast fuel pump, they replied immediately and said, yeah, that sounds super loud. 
they two day shipped me a replacement, and a label to ship loud one back, nice. 

as I’m leaving work I hear a kinda pop sound and lose power.

great, pump must have went.

called AAA and they and/or tow companies really fumbled, had to push the bike 6 miles home, that’s another story.

 

Funny all that happens because all day I was like, can’t wait to change this pump when I get home! It’s sitting on my porch!
that was delayed, very tired and late.

 

so next day, took out the unit, and the hose from the pump to the filter was off, guess that was the pop. Maybe the pump was over pressured. Hose clamp was tight on the hose, guess not tight enough. Shrug.
 

replaced the pump, checked all hose clamps, reinstalled, primed, started bike, a lot quieter, GREAT!

 

welllll, we will see….

rode the bike about 50 miles on its first ride last night, everything seems normal, nothing overly loud.

took the bike out today, rode it about 25 miles. Initially on the highway, then 20-30 minutes of stop and go. 
start to notice, hmmm, pump seems a little louder. Not quite as loud as the previous pump, but still…questionable.

maybe it’s just my brain, I have that damn sound programmed in my head at this point, it’s like a trigger, maybe it’s just me..

got to destination, came back to bike about an hour later, started up to leave, head out, still seems semi loud…maybe it’s just normal, I can deal with it…

Drive 15 miles, stop, get some food, 45 minutes later, start up bike to leave, it’s just as loud as the previous super loud  this time, no question, wtf! 
 

time to get on the highway and rip home and put the original stock pump back in, I’m done with this Chinese enduralast crap. 
I assume it’s Chinese, I can only assume I dunno. 
rip it on the highway 15 miles 70-90mph, exit pull up to stoplight, it’s quiet! Like legit quiet, this is how it should be!  can only hear it if I really try. Hmmm.

Took a longer route on the surface streets to burn more gas, and see if the sound picks back up.  sounded like it may have gotten slightly louder between stop lights, but seems relatively normal.

 

im just telling the story in detail for context, since that’s what these forums are for. i don’t think there’s much to be answered, and I suppose it all doesn’t really matter but it’s nice to just tell my stories to people with knowledge. 
 

only other note that makes me question things, trying to figure out the deal is, when I apply the brakes, the sound changes, I assume just power being used by the servo, seems normal.

 

but at stops, no brakes, sometimes I can hear the electrical pump sound fluctuating a little bit. I suppose it could just be the pump working, pumping fuel… but maybe it’s just crap cheap pump talk for I’m cheap don’t trust me, I dunno. 

we will see what happens tomorrow, make my decision weather to swap back to original or not.

or just take the original on my upcoming trip to be able to swap on the side of the road…

 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

That is a story from he!!.

 

About all I can add is to ask what type of pump hose clamps you used?  The clamps that hold the "U"  hose to the pump & filter are special high pressure FI (Fuel Injection) clamps, those MUST be properly sized for the hose you use.

 

If you used standard generic worm drive hose clamps then those will probably allow the the hose to blow off again.   

 

 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

They are actually screw/worm drive ones, they were sent with the kit from EME, pump, filter, screen, actual BMW hoses both sides, the rubber bushings top and bottom, new top plastic mount and four screw clamps. 
maybe I didn’t tighten it hard enough. Last time I replace filter and hoses with those weird accordion hoses, they also supplied screw clamps. But that accordion hose was a bit tighter going on the filter. 
 

I REALLY tightened them this time so hopefully it won’t happen again…

 

cold start this morning and ride to work, pump sounds as it should.

maybe it needed a break in, lol, yeah right. Hopefully it some how straightened itself out though. Fingers crossed.

[Hadabadachada]

Back again. So went through TWO EME fuel pumps, both super loud and crap, went back to high mileage OEM and still getting cold start issues…..sometimes.

with replacement pumps I didn’t notice it happen at all.

 

so When I go to check these checkable things you’ve mentioned, the bike usually starts right up, so I don’t know if I’m getting an accurate “problematics” reading. Vs a “normal” reading, since the bike starts right up no issues.

 

checked the green wires, they got power and stayed at about 13v I believe it was, both had same reading, BUT, this wasn’t a cold start, not starting test, the bike started right up.

 

this morning I checked the fuel pressure and the return flow. Flowed about 2L on return, looks good, and pump was reading about 45ish range, no fluctuations. So that all checks out, BUT then again, this wasn’t on a no start issue, the bike fired right up. 
 

I guess I just have to maybe keep the pressure gauge hooked up and let the bike sit and try again tomorrow, maybe it’ll be hard to start then and can get readings when it’s actually not starting. 
 

def a fuel issue, I guess electronic as it seems like the pump and return tests check out. 
 

when it’s tough to start, and I’m just on the starter, crank crank crank, im Giving it gas up and down on the throttle, there’s little puff sounds like it’s wanting to start, sometimes it does sometimes it doesn’t. 
just gives me the feeling it’s not getting proper fuel. 
 

It’s starting to feel like a real tough one to figure out, especially since it’s my everyday vehicle. 

[Hosstage]

Is a new oem pump available? Or, a higher quality pump than the two replacements you've tried?

[LBump]

You might try these folks if you want aftermarket, LINK

[Hadabadachada]

14 minutes ago, LBump said:

You might try these folks if you want aftermarket, LINK

Have you had good luck with these?

 

the issue with the two EME pumps was they were obnoxiously loud, like ridiculous. They worked fine it seemed, but you could hear it a block away. 

[LBump]

Use them in KTM dual sport bike, seem like they work fine. I really can't hear them because of earplugs. 

[Hadabadachada]

Back again.

replaced old stock fuel pump with the quantum one that was suggested. So far so good, quite a bit quieter than even the OEM, can barely hear it prime and run. 
it does work though, fuel pressure is 45 at prime, and runs just over 40. 

still getting hard cold starting issue though. 
set the pressure gauge up last night in hopes to have the issue happen again, it didn’t QUITE.

maybe a little tough, but I have to say, with the new fuel pump, when there is a hard cold start issue, it remedies quicker than previous. 
sit there and hold the throttle open for a bit while on the starter and it usually goes.

 

also hooked up to the green injector wires this morning, again, wanted to catch everything I could on a hard start.
Both sides read in the 12 range. But it wasn’t hard starting 

 

put the ohm meter on the air temp sensor. Not very knowledgeable on the electronic stuff and testing. It read 1.668 then when I started the bike and ran it, it started to drop 1.666, 1.665 and just dropped bit by bit, so I’m assuming that that sensor works. 
 

haven’t found the oil temp sensor, or how to test that, guess I need to just find and figure to get a result.

 

only other thing I need to do is get a clear hose for the fuel return to see if there are bubbles.

did check the return last week after I got my pressure gauge kit, and it did run about 2L in a minute.

 

I guess in the meantime I’m going to try and clean the air temp sensor, maybe it’s fouled with oil, since I usually do have a bit of oil in the air box. I wonder if I can just wipe that off with a baby wipe or something. Don’t have the socket to remove it.

and I guess change the gaskets on the fuel quick connects. They don’t leak but I don’t know what else lol.

wondering if maybe I should try a new starter? Or how to test that.  Did check the battery while thinking of the starter, stays above 12 while cranking, goes up into the 13’s while running, giving gas. Seems good. 
 

im trying to plan a decent trip to PA and NC in a few months, trying to do it on a bike that doesn’t give me questionable thoughts everytime I get on. 

[Hadabadachada]

back again with an update. 
don’t wanna get my hopes up, but it’s been a few days and the bike seems to be cold starting fine now, like it used to.

 

only things I did when I took things apart were, cleaned the air temp sensor in the air box with with alcohol, and disconnected the oil temp sensor plug and cleaned the connectors. 
 

im leaning on the air temp sensor cleaning did the trick. Didn’t see much come off of it on the towel, but there was a little discoloration on it. 
 

shrug

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

back again with an update. 
don’t wanna get my hopes up, but it’s been a few days and the bike seems to be cold starting fine now, like it used to.

 

only things I did when I took things apart were, cleaned the air temp sensor in the air box with with alcohol, and disconnected the oil temp sensor plug and cleaned the connectors. 
 

im leaning on the air temp sensor cleaning did the trick. Didn’t see much come off of it on the towel, but there was a little discoloration on it. 
 

shrug

Evening  Hadabadachada

 

If it ends up the problem is gone then it was probably the oil temperature sensor as the AIT (Air Temperature Sensor) has little effect on cold starting at normal riding temperatures.