2013 R1200RT stumble/missfires on hard acceleration

[pavjayt]

Hello all,

 

Issue: Bike stumbles/mis-fires/shudders at hard acceleration on freeway (for example when passing/overtaking).

 

Update: I noticed this very much today right after a full tank fill up, other times its not so much

 

For the past couple of years, most of the riding is with cruise control set between 65 - 75mph and it runs smooth without any issues except when I try to quickly over-take/pass other motorists

 

Bike's history

2013 R1200RT with ~59K

Engine oil, transmission oil changes and final drive maintenance are done myself on time, just did the final drive oil and lube maintenance last weekend

Been using 15w-50 since I bought it at 1200miles on it till about 46K, then switched to 10w-40 (I have it in stock and have been using it as it is also a recommended grade in owners manual)

Replaced OEM battery about 500 miles ago

For the past 15K or so, I have been noticing some misfiring/shudder when I accelerate it on uphill from a stop light (not when I start, but when going uphill on acceleration), if I take it slow, it was fine

Replaced air filter (air filter box has some oil residue in it and along the walls), plugs, alternator belt with genuine ones at about 54K, when I was doing this, noticed a crack in fuel hose where it connects to right side injector, used some light JB weld along the fine crack and tapped it

One more new thing I noticed is, after I did my last oil change, within about 1.5k-2k miles, oil light came on, went home only to see the oil level is at the bottom of the sight glass, this never happened to me. Topped it off to middle of the glass window as I usually do.

I was already waiting for the dealer to do the fuel pump recall and when they finally did that, had them replace the fuel lines as well.

Dealer mentioned that there is some oil seepage between the engine and transmission, but not sure if it is gear oil or engine oil (common for a bike of this age). Never noticed any oil leaks under my bike all these years.

For the past two years bike is on its side stand for half the time (at home) and on center stand at work. Before that it was always on center stand

 

From reading all the above comments and solutions, looks like replacing coils is the most successful solution. Is it time for mine as well or are there any other reasons for this. Will plug in my GS-911 and see if there any codes.

 

thanks

[Scott9999]

5 hours ago, pavjayt said:

Hello all,

 

Issue: Bike stumbles/mis-fires/shudders at hard acceleration on freeway (for example when passing/overtaking).

 

Update: I noticed this very much today right after a full tank fill up, other times its not so much

 

 

Shooting from the hip, here, whenever I hear of a ignition/misfire type problems right after a fill-up, the first thing I have to ask is "did you overfill the tank?".   These bikes have a carbon cannister just like auto's to capture evaporating gas from the tank, and return it to the tank.  If you overfill, i.e. "top off" after it's full, you flood/clog-up that cannister, and it impacts the Beemer's ignition timing (if I recall correctly, i.e.  if that's the correct explanation).

 

May not be your issue, but I thought I'd toss it out, in case it is.  

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, pavjayt said:

Hello all,

 

Issue: Bike stumbles/mis-fires/shudders at hard acceleration on freeway (for example when passing/overtaking).

 

Update: I noticed this very much today right after a full tank fill up, other times its not so much

 

For the past couple of years, most of the riding is with cruise control set between 65 - 75mph and it runs smooth without any issues except when I try to quickly over-take/pass other motorists

 

Bike's history

2013 R1200RT with ~59K

Engine oil, transmission oil changes and final drive maintenance are done myself on time, just did the final drive oil and lube maintenance last weekend

Been using 15w-50 since I bought it at 1200miles on it till about 46K, then switched to 10w-40 (I have it in stock and have been using it as it is also a recommended grade in owners manual)

Replaced OEM battery about 500 miles ago

For the past 15K or so, I have been noticing some misfiring/shudder when I accelerate it on uphill from a stop light (not when I start, but when going uphill on acceleration), if I take it slow, it was fine

Replaced air filter (air filter box has some oil residue in it and along the walls), plugs, alternator belt with genuine ones at about 54K, when I was doing this, noticed a crack in fuel hose where it connects to right side injector, used some light JB weld along the fine crack and tapped it

One more new thing I noticed is, after I did my last oil change, within about 1.5k-2k miles, oil light came on, went home only to see the oil level is at the bottom of the sight glass, this never happened to me. Topped it off to middle of the glass window as I usually do.

I was already waiting for the dealer to do the fuel pump recall and when they finally did that, had them replace the fuel lines as well.

Dealer mentioned that there is some oil seepage between the engine and transmission, but not sure if it is gear oil or engine oil (common for a bike of this age). Never noticed any oil leaks under my bike all these years.

For the past two years bike is on its side stand for half the time (at home) and on center stand at work. Before that it was always on center stand

 

From reading all the above comments and solutions, looks like replacing coils is the most successful solution. Is it time for mine as well or are there any other reasons for this. Will plug in my GS-911 and see if there any codes.

 

thanks

Morning  pavjayt

 

Thanks for starting your own thread_

 

On your problem-- Just not enough info to point at anything specific, your problem is not going to be easy to find either by you or even by your dealer.

 

The obvious guess would be a stick coil, those are about impossible to test due to the isolated secondary & the usual problem being internal arcing. A poor performing stick coil issue is difficult or even sometimes impossible to find even with a GS-911 as they are not monitored by the fueling computer. (we'll cover the GS-911 part later in this post)

 

A stuck or malfunctioning  exhaust flap can cause a loss of high speed power, or  flat spot at higher RPM's, or lack of power under heavy acceleration load, so it's operation should be checked,  but they very seldom cause an actual miss-firing. (usually just a lack of full engine power)

 

Same with a partially plugged fuel injector, a partially plugged fuel injector can cause a loss of high RPM power,  or loss of heavy-load engine power but if bad enough can cause a lean-condition mis-fire under heavy engine load, or even under moderate engine load at higher RPM's. You might try using a good dose of Techron Concentrate through a few tanks of fuel. Easy thing to try  & can be effective if you have a fuel injector acting up. 

 

A TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) that doesn't track properly all the way through it's travel can also cause similar problems to what you are seeing, not a usual problem if it otherwise runs good in most normal riding (this can be seen in the GS-911 data if you really know what to look for)  if you are knowledgeable  enough  to spot slight anomalies in the trapped TPS data vs fueling data.  

 

Have you checked the Throttle Body synchronization at higher throttle openings?  The sync would have to be way off to cause your problem but the BMW hexhead/camhead bikes have a history of cracking the plastic throttle cams & that cracking can cause cam misalignment. (kind of a long shot but should be verified). Or at least use a mirror & strong light to verify Throttle Body cam integrity. (not easy to look at the back side of the throttle bodies but with a mirror & sliding the plastic covers up they can be looked at)

 

If I was (personally) working on your motorcycle I would first try  substituting in know good upper stick coils as a quick test (that is assuming I have known good stick coils handy). An easy first guess & a very quick to try. 

 

If I didn't have the stick coils handy to try, or the coil substitution didn't eliminate the problem, then my next move would be to mark the twist grip position at the problem throttle-opening using a grease pencil or masking tape & a pen. This will allow me to duplicate the (problem) throttle opening while testing or inspecting. Then once the throttle opening at-problem-appearance is marked I could then determine if the problem is throttle position sensitive or engine RPM sensitive. (this can hopefully help to determine what is causing the issue).

 

Assuming none of the above helped to identify or isolate the problem then a good trapped GS-911 data capture while riding (especially just before, at, & above the throttle position that was marked earlier. This requires the newer Wi-Fi GS-911 & the knowledge to set it up to  trap engine data while riding. It also helps to have an extension GS-911 pigtail so the GS-911 can be remote from the motorcycle's  diagnostic connector. (you can find a GS-911 extension pigtail on E-Bay fairly cheap, they are not the best quality but do seem to work  just fine for occasional usage)   

 

Once the data is trapped & downloaded into Excel you REALLY need to know what to look for (data will be difficult to decipher & data irregularities will usually be very subtle to those not familiar with reading the data columns). The good news here is you can send the trapped Excel  data to some of us here that are used to looking at GS-911 data.  

 

On your oil leak?-- A sign of oil leakage at rear of engine but no signs of oil on the ground typically points to a seeping rear balance shaft seal. If you look very closely you will probably find signs of oil stains on the front of the catalytic converter, oil hits the hot cat then flashes off so doesn't drip. 

 

 

[pavjayt]

7 hours ago, Scott9999 said:

Shooting from the hip, here, whenever I hear of a ignition/misfire type problems right after a fill-up, the first thing I have to ask is "did you overfill the tank?".   These bikes have a carbon cannister just like auto's to capture evaporating gas from the tank, and return it to the tank.  If you overfill, i.e. "top off" after it's full, you flood/clog-up that cannister, and it impacts the Beemer's ignition timing (if I recall correctly, i.e.  if that's the correct explanation).

 

May not be your issue, but I thought I'd toss it out, in case it is.  

This could be one of the reasons, the pump at costco I was using yesterday was shutting down when I leave it with trigger hold, so I filled it with my hand holding the trigger and filled it couple more times when it stopped assuming that there might be an issue with the pump just to be sure.

Almost all the time, I remove the pump when it stops itself. On few occasions I had done above, but never had this issue with old fuel pump before recall replacement.

thanks for pointing this out

 

 

[pavjayt]

5 hours ago, dirtrider said:

.....

 

Same with a partially plugged fuel injector, a partially plugged fuel injector can cause a loss of high RPM power,  or loss of heavy-load engine power but if bad enough can cause a lean-condition mis-fire under heavy engine load, or even under moderate engine load at higher RPM's. You might try using a good dose of Techron Concentrate through a few tanks of fuel. Easy thing to try  & can be effective if you have a fuel injector acting up. 

 

.....

 

Assuming none of the above helped to identify or isolate the problem then a good trapped GS-911 data capture while riding (especially just before, at, & above the throttle position that was marked earlier. This requires the newer Wi-Fi GS-911 & the knowledge to set it up to  trap engine data while riding. It also helps to have an extension GS-911 pigtail so the GS-911 can be remote from the motorcycle's  diagnostic connector. (you can find a GS-911 extension pigtail on E-Bay fairly cheap, they are not the best quality but do seem to work  just fine for occasional usage)   

 

Once the data is trapped & downloaded into Excel you REALLY need to know what to look for (data will be difficult to decipher & data irregularities will usually be very subtle to those not familiar with reading the data columns). The good news here is you can send the trapped Excel  data to some of us here that are used to looking at GS-911 data.  

 

On your oil leak?-- A sign of oil leakage at rear of engine but no signs of oil on the ground typically points to a seeping rear balance shaft seal. If you look very closely you will probably find signs of oil stains on the front of the catalytic converter, oil hits the hot cat then flashes off so doesn't drip. 

 

 

Thanks for your detailed reply D.R.

I have never techron in any of my automobiles till now, but will give it a try on your recommendation hoping that it will get rid of that slight hesitation I feel once in a while when passing quickly. On the other hand, it had a hairline crack before at the injector connection and who knew what get trapped in there

I have a wifi enabled GS-911, I can do real-time data logging as needed

Will check on that oil leak later today at the location you pointed out

[Hosstage]

I always hesitate to post when DR is on the case, but don't overlook a simple vacuum leak. If it is detracting from the process, I apologize.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

I always hesitate to post when DR is on the case, but don't overlook a simple vacuum leak. If it is detracting from the process, I apologize.

Afternoon   Hosstage

 

If there is enough of a vacuum leak to effect the 4000 RPM operation range (fairly open throttle plates) then the idle would be extremely high & the lower throttle opening operation would be even worse to darn near unrideable. (percent of vacuum leak vs throttle plate opening  goes down plus intake vacuum negative-pressure decreases as throttle plates are opened). At 100% open throttle almost no vacuum negative-pressure in the intakes. 

 

Artifact of a closed loop electronic fueling system is any air (vacuum) leaks are matched by the o2 sensors just commanding more fuel to match the extra air.  

 

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, pavjayt said:

Thanks for your detailed reply D.R.

I have never techron in any of my automobiles till now, but will give it a try on your recommendation hoping that it will get rid of that slight hesitation I feel once in a while when passing quickly. On the other hand, it had a hairline crack before at the injector connection and who knew what get trapped in there

I have a wifi enabled GS-911, I can do real-time data logging as needed

Will check on that oil leak later today at the location you pointed out

Afternoon pavjayt

 

Techron (especially Techron Concentrate) is one of the few fuel additives that actually works. It can't cure all injector woes but is pretty darn good at removing varnish & soft carbon deposits.

 

If the Techron doesn't work___ 

 

If you can get the thing to act up reliably then do run real time logging, be sure to mark the twist grip position,  then when done with the trapping do a little throttle hold (count of 3) and/or slight twitching of the twist grip at that opening  so we can really look at the trapped data string in that specific throttle range. This helps us find that exact opening of the throttle  (using TPS output) in the data columns.    

 

Try to keep the problem happening for as long as possible (within reason)  if you quickly ride through the problem it might not show up in the data stream. 

 

Don't overdo the data logging (if possible) as extra data makes for VERY LONG data columns, it can be paired down with data selection if we need to but smaller data logs that "include" the problem make data interpretation easier.  

[Rube]

I have a 2011 R1200RT that was stumbling on hard acceleration and made many assumptions on what it was. The only thing I could not test was the coils. (I am a bike mechanic (years ago) and have been riding for over 50 years). I couldn't put my finger on the problem and eventually took it to the dealer. They could not pinpoint the problem either and ended up swapping coils out one at a time. The last coil they swapped out cleared the problem. It cost a little over $400 but the bike runs better than it ever has. I assume the coil was failing over time and I really didn't notice the problem until one day I got caught in a storm and had to hightail it home and was pushing it hard.  My 2 cents worth FWIW... As luck would have it - I did not beat the storm and got soaked for about 20 miles. Not fun at any age but at 68 it sucked. 

[pavjayt]

17 hours ago, Rube said:

I have a 2011 R1200RT that was stumbling on hard acceleration and made many assumptions on what it was. The only thing I could not test was the coils. (I am a bike mechanic (years ago) and have been riding for over 50 years). I couldn't put my finger on the problem and eventually took it to the dealer. They could not pinpoint the problem either and ended up swapping coils out one at a time. The last coil they swapped out cleared the problem. It cost a little over $400 but the bike runs better than it ever has. I assume the coil was failing over time and I really didn't notice the problem until one day I got caught in a storm and had to hightail it home and was pushing it hard.  My 2 cents worth FWIW... As luck would have it - I did not beat the storm and got soaked for about 20 miles. Not fun at any age but at 68 it sucked. 

Out of curiosity, do you remember in which sequence they replaced the coils, upper first?

 

thanks

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Out of curiosity, do you remember in which sequence they replaced the coils, upper first?

 

thanks

Afternoon pavjayt

 

It typically is an upper coil for a high RPM problem & either an upper or lower for a low RPM or idle problem. The lower spark plugs are phase shifted (retarded timing) at higher RPMs so add  little to the high RPM combustion process. 

[6speedTi]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon pavjayt

 

It typically is an upper coil for a high RPM problem & either an upper or lower for a low RPM or idle problem. The lower spark plugs are phase shifted (retarded timing) at higher RPMs so add  little to the high RPM combustion process. 

That is good information on the timing of the coils. Similar setup on horizontally opposed general aviation engines. The magnetos have staggered timing to get a more complete combustion. 👍

[Rube]

it was the left lower...

[pavjayt]

Since this issue appeared, I did two fillups and it didn't appear again. I really hope that one instance is due to overfilling of gas tank. But again, I never had this issue before even though I did over fill ups on multiple instances (ofcourse not regularly) since 2014 with old fuel pump.

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Since this issue appeared, I did two fillups and it didn't appear again. I really hope that one instance is due to overfilling of gas tank. But again, I never had this issue before even though I did over fill ups on multiple instances (ofcourse not regularly) since 2014 with old fuel pump.

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

I seriously doubt it was from over-filling the fuel tank, if you over-filled the tank enough & enough times to plug/goop up the emission evap canister then the issue would still be there, as well as a sucking sound when you open the filler cap after a long, ride  plus you usually get a difficult to open filler cap after a long ride.  Once those things plug from carbon mush they don't repair themselves.  

 

It could have been some water in the fuel tank though as that will go away after a while & few tank run-downs & refills.  

[pavjayt]

All my fill ups are on empty tank (usually about 15-25 miles left) and I do always complete fill ups, never partial fill up that I can think of.

 

Will keep an eye out if it happens again.

[pavjayt]

Looks like stumble/misfiring kind of thing is being persistent in mine these days. I can easy replicate it by doing WOT at any kind of speeds. Wondering if my one or multiple of my coils are going bad.

 

Only happens when I do WOT like from a stop light to a short on ramp or merging into express lanes when normal lanes are slowing down faster.

[dirtrider]

30 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Looks like stumble/misfiring kind of thing is being persistent in mine these days. I can easy replicate it by doing WOT at any kind of speeds. Wondering if my one or multiple of my coils are going bad.

 

Only happens when I do WOT like from a stop light to a short on ramp or merging into express lanes when normal lanes are slowing down faster.

Afternoon pavjayt

 

That sure is a possibility, a coil can go bad about any time. Are all 4 spark plug electrode gaps within reason? A very worn plug (wide electrode gaps) can really drive the spark KV requirement up during higher engine loads.

[pavjayt]

5 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon pavjayt

 

That sure is a possibility, a coil can go bad about any time. Are all 4 spark plug electrode gaps within reason? A very worn plug (wide electrode gaps) can really drive the spark KV requirement up during higher engine loads.

Thanks for your reply D.R. All 4 spark plugs were replaced recently with genuine ones from beemerboneyard. They were in good condition without any damage to them when installed.

[bruce2000ltc]

My '13RT started acting up last year with about 55K miles.  Running bad on WOT and other times, too.  Went ahead and replaced all 4 coils from https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/1754.htm and the bike has run perfect since.  

 

[dirtrider]

16 hours ago, pavjayt said:

Thanks for your reply D.R. All 4 spark plugs were replaced recently with genuine ones from beemerboneyard. They were in good condition without any damage to them when installed.

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

Well, then that pretty well eliminates the spark plugs. It could easily be a weak stick coil.

 

You might (I stress m-i-g-h-t) be able to identify a coil going bad by using an old small AM transistor radio  (FM probably won't work)

 

Just put the AM radio on an off-band (not receiving a station) then turn the volume up & with your engine running place the AM radio near each spark plug coil  (if the coil is arcing internally (usual cause of failure)  you might hear the spark crackling on the radio)

[pavjayt]

Should I be able to identify this using GS-911 including isolating which coil it is?

 

 

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Should I be able to identify this using GS-911 including isolating which coil it is?

 

 

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

Probably not as the GS-911 doesn't monitor much to do with the coils. 

 

You might be able to set your GS-911 to trap real-time data then try riding as long as possible it in zone that it is acting up (blip the throttle twice just as the problem starts (or better yet, just before it starts if possible). This is so you can find that period of operation in the trapped data. You might find something in the o2 sensor data string or possibly see something in the short term fueling adaptives. 

 

You might be able to at least identify the cylinder but definitely not the coil on that cylinder. 

 

But viewing the RPM range that the  engine is running in when the problem is happening then seeing the RPM that it isn't happening  (IF you can find that in the trapped data)  m-i-g-h-t allow us to take an educated guess at which coil is acting up (top or bottom).

 

Best way is have a known good coil for the top & a modified good coil for the bottom (or a left & right lower coil) then swap that known good coil around until you replace the bad coil. (Of course this only works IF your problem is actually caused by  a bad coil).

 

Thing is it sort of points to a coil going bad but other things can act about the same (like a partially plugged inlet screen in a fuel injector).

 

Are your front exhaust pipes the same color after a long high speed ride? 

 

Have you inspected you throttle body cams for cracking?  (or at least do an above-idle throttle balance check)  

 

 

[pavjayt]

On 8/2/2022 at 1:23 PM, dirtrider said:

Thing is it sort of points to a coil going bad but other things can act about the same (like a partially plugged inlet screen in a fuel injector).

As for partially plugged inlet screen in a fuel injector, I can not confidently say that this is not the case since there used to be a hairline crack on the fuel hose right where it connects to right side injector which is when I had the dealer replace the whole fuel line. I am not even sure how long it was like that. It has a lot of dirt accumulated around that crack when I noticed it. But, the dealer wouldn't have cared to clean the injector when replacing the fuel lines.

On 8/2/2022 at 1:23 PM, dirtrider said:

Are your front exhaust pipes the same color after a long high speed ride?

Cant actually check this as my exhaust pipes are discolored long back. But I did check for temperature difference between both sides after my normal commutes on multiple occasions and they are within +/- 2 to 5F

On 8/2/2022 at 1:23 PM, dirtrider said:

Have you inspected you throttle body cams for cracking?  (or at least do an above-idle throttle balance check) 

This is one thing I have been meaning to do for a while now. Just trying to come across a proper simple way to do this TBS service. If you know of a way to do without spending couple of hundred dollars on a special device, please let me know. Would like to do the valve clearance check as well at the same time, but heard that getting proper size hemispheres on time might be an issue and I dont want any downtime.

[dirtrider]

54 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

As for partially plugged inlet screen in a fuel injector, I can not confidently say that this is not the case since there used to be a hairline crack on the fuel hose right where it connects to right side injector which is when I had the dealer replace the whole fuel line. I am not even sure how long it was like that. It has a lot of dirt accumulated around that crack when I noticed it. But, the dealer wouldn't have cared to clean the injector when replacing the fuel lines.

Cant actually check this as my exhaust pipes are discolored long back. But I did check for temperature difference between both sides after my normal commutes on multiple occasions and they are within +/- 2 to 5F

This is one thing I have been meaning to do for a while now. Just trying to come across a proper simple way to do this TBS service. If you know of a way to do without spending couple of hundred dollars on a special device, please let me know. Would like to do the valve clearance check as well at the same time, but heard that getting proper size hemispheres on time might be an issue and I dont want any downtime.

Afternoon pavjayt

 

You can easily CHECK the valve clearance, doesn't mean that you have to change it right now. If it is way off then you should probably address that, if it is close then put it on your future to-do list. 

 

On the TB cam crack check, not a big deal & no special tools needed (just enough to remove tupperware & a mirror with strong light to view the rear of the cams for cracking. 

 

You can check the cross-side balance with a homemade U tube manometer. 

 

 

[pavjayt]

Anyone has a set of known good coils that I can borrow to test on mine to find out which one(s) are bad or even if they are the cause?

 

thanks in advance

[9Mary7]

Where are you located?

[MikeB60]

Check out this thread.

[lkraus]

You might try disconnecting one upper coil wire and then see what happens under load.  If it runs the same, that is possibly a bad coil - it was not contributing anything, so disconnecting it made no difference. If the problem becomes worse, that coil is probably OK. Repeat with the other side. Try this somewhere without traffic, the engine will fall flat on it's face if you disconnect the only good primary coil.

 

This is not a definitive test, there many other possibilities, but it should tell you something about the primary coils.

 

 

[pavjayt]

On 10/16/2022 at 5:58 AM, 9Mary7 said:

Where are you located?

Bay Area 94582

[pavjayt]

18 hours ago, lkraus said:

You might try disconnecting one upper coil wire and then see what happens under load.  If it runs the same, that is possibly a bad coil - it was not contributing anything, so disconnecting it made no difference. If the problem becomes worse, that coil is probably OK. Repeat with the other side. Try this somewhere without traffic, the engine will fall flat on it's face if you disconnect the only good primary coil.

 

This is not a definitive test, there many other possibilities, but it should tell you something about the primary coils.

 

 

Thanks Larry, will try to perform some tests this way.

[pavjayt]

I tried to check the throttle body cams, but on mine, they are not exposed, they have covers on them. Not sure if one has to remove those covers to check or if it is specific to later model cam heads.
 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, pavjayt said:

I tried to check the throttle body cams, but on mine, they are not exposed, they have covers on them. Not sure if one has to remove those covers to check or if it is specific to later model cam heads.
 

 

 

Afternoon pavjayt

 

You have to slide the plastic covers up the throttle cables enough to view the cams, you can't actually remove the covers without unhooking the cables but they will slide up the cables far enough to see the cams. 

[9Mary7]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

You have to slide the plastic covers up the throttle cables enough to view the cams, you can't actually remove the covers without unhooking the cables but they will slide up the cables far enough to see the cams. 

I had to use a small mechanic's mirror to see mine once I slid the covers up.......