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02 1150RT Woes Got Me Stumped


Boulder Dave

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Ok, long story, but I sure could use some advice. 
 

Sold my RT about 5 years ago with around 55k IIRC. Bought it back 3 months ago with 67k on it. Bike had major service two years ago, but only 5k since. 
 

Soon after I bought bike back I did two 100 mile rides with no issues. Then on my commute to work one morning about 3 miles in the bike suddenly died. It cranked great, but no fire. Got bike home and an hour or so later it fired back up. HES right?  Sent HES to be rewired. Installed rewired HES and problem continues. Bike dies once warm, but refires a couple hours later. During the cool down time I can get it to start for a few seconds then it sputters out. 
 

Here’s what I’ve done:

 

  1. All new fluids
  2. Brake bleed
  3. Replaced battery
  4. Replaced all internal tank components. Fuel pressure and flow checks fine and holds pressure
  5. Bike has spark and fuel pump primes
  6. injectors squirt
  7. coil ohms per spec
  8. visually checked wiring at ignition and kill switch
  9. problem seems associated with bike warming up. Always restarts when cool. 
     

Im stumped at this point. Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated. 
 

Thx. 

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6 hours ago, Boulder Dave said:

Ok, long story, but I sure could use some advice. 
 

Sold my RT about 5 years ago with around 55k IIRC. Bought it back 3 months ago with 67k on it. Bike had major service two years ago, but only 5k since. 
 

Soon after I bought bike back I did two 100 mile rides with no issues. Then on my commute to work one morning about 3 miles in the bike suddenly died. It cranked great, but no fire. Got bike home and an hour or so later it fired back up. HES right?  Sent HES to be rewired. Installed rewired HES and problem continues. Bike dies once warm, but refires a couple hours later. During the cool down time I can get it to start for a few seconds then it sputters out. 
 

Here’s what I’ve done:

 

  1. All new fluids
  2. Brake bleed
  3. Replaced battery
  4. Replaced all internal tank components. Fuel pressure and flow checks fine and holds pressure
  5. Bike has spark and fuel pump primes
  6. injectors squirt
  7. coil ohms per spec
  8. visually checked wiring at ignition and kill switch
  9. problem seems associated with bike warming up. Always restarts when cool. 
     

Im stumped at this point. Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated. 
 

Thx. 

Morning Dave

 

You have done a lot of things so assuming they were done correctly those can be eliminated. 

 

A BMW  coil can ohm out correctly but still have problems due to internal arcing so just because it ohms out good don't assume it can't be the problem. Very few issues with the BMW 1150 single spark coil but if there was a problem with a spark plug wire or excessively wide spark plug gap then it could be damaged from internal arcing. 

 

Any chance your 1150 has some sort of add-on fuel controller (like a Techlusion)? Over the years I have seen a few of those cause a problem like yours as the engine warms up. If you have something like that try completely removing it as a test. 

 

Is your evap canister (black can on right rear)  removed? If not then make sure that it is not plugged & is plumbed incorrectly. Are you getting any type of sticking gas cap, or air wooshing in as you open the cap after riding for while?

 

Long ago I worked on an 1150 that acted something like your present problem (started good cold but quit when warm). It took a lot of testing but finally I found a problem with the Motronic 2.4 fueling computer. Kind of a long-shot but if nothing else found it might be a place to look.  

 

Another thing you might try is riding with the o2 sensor disconnected just to eliminate that as a possible cause of your issue. 

 

Also make sure that the R/H side spark plug wire is not touching or near the o2 sensor wire pigtail  as the spark cross-talk into the o2 circuit can effect the engine fueling control.   

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Dave

 

You have done a lot of things so assuming they were done correctly those can be eliminated. 

 

A BMW  coil can ohm out correctly but still have problems due to internal arcing so just because it ohms out good don't assume it can't be the problem. Very few issues with the BMW 1150 single spark coil but if there was a problem with a spark plug wire or excessively wide spark plug gap then it could be damaged from internal arcing. 

 

Any chance your 1150 has some sort of add-on fuel controller (like a Techlusion)? Over the years I have seen a few of those cause a problem like yours as the engine warms up. If you have something like that try completely removing it as a test. 

 

Is your evap canister (black can on right rear)  removed? If not then make sure that it is not plugged & is plumbed incorrectly. Are you getting any type of sticking gas cap, or air wooshing in as you open the cap after riding for while?

 

Long ago I worked on an 1150 that acted something like your present problem (started good cold but quit when warm). It took a lot of testing but finally I found a problem with the Motronic 2.4 fueling computer. Kind of a long-shot but if nothing else found it might be a place to look.  

 

Another thing you might try is riding with the o2 sensor disconnected just to eliminate that as a possible cause of your issue. 

 

Also make sure that the R/H side spark plug wire is not touching or near the o2 sensor wire pigtail  as the spark cross-talk into the o2 circuit can effect the engine fueling control.   

 

 

 

 

Thx DR

 

No add on fuel programmer and canister was removed shortly after I bought bike 10 years ago. I have popped the fuel cap at each failure with no effect. 
 

I will check proximity of O2 and plug wires.

 

How does one test the Motronic?

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23 minutes ago, Boulder Dave said:

 

How does one test the Motronic?

Afternoon Dave

 

If it has totally failed then each of the  outputs can be tested, but with an intermittent, or a temperature effected, Motronic about the only option is to install a "known good Motronic" as an elimination test. 

 

You can also rig up some remote 12v panel lights to things like the coil (B+) & fuel injector (B+) & fuel pump (B+)  to watch those circuits as the engine quits. 

 

You can also install a long (clear) hose in the fuel return line to see if the fuel return flow stops flowing fuel just before, and at, engine quit. (good way to catch a fuel flow issue).

 

Do you remember what your tachometer was doing just before & just as the engine quit running? (THIS could possibly tell us a LOT about the problem's root). 

 

 

 

 

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Boulder Dave
9 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Dave

 

If it has totally failed then each of the  outputs can be tested, but with an intermittent, or a temperature effected, Motronic about the only option is to install a "known good Motronic" as an elimination test. 

 

You can also rig up some remote 12v panel lights to things like the coil (B+) & fuel injector (B+) & fuel pump (B+)  to watch those circuits as the engine quits. 

 

You can also install a long (clear) hose in the fuel return line to see if the fuel return flow stops flowing fuel just before, and at, engine quit. (good way to catch a fuel flow issue).

 

Do you remember what your tachometer was doing just before & just as the engine quit running? (THIS could possibly tell us a LOT about the problem's root). 

 

 

 

 


I don’t believe the tach was acting up prior to the fails, but can’t be sure. 
 

Thoughts on getting a GS-911?

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dirtrider
8 hours ago, Boulder Dave said:


I don’t believe the tach was acting up prior to the fails, but can’t be sure. 
 

Thoughts on getting a GS-911?

Morning Dave

 

Excellent tool but it's usefulness on the BMW 1150 (Ma 2.4 computer) is somewhat limited for finding problems like you are chasing. 

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It's problems like this that make me think fondly of an airhead.  These high tech wonders are great when all works as it should but look out and man your wallet when problems like this arise.  All your eggs are in the Motronic basket, so to speak, and I've had happier thoughts.  Oh, and have you priced a new Motronic lately?  

 

Speaking of airheads I got my eye on one.

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23 hours ago, JamesW said:

Speaking of airheads I got my eye on one

Still ride my airhead that I've had for 30 yrs+   If you buy one , don't forget a new pair of boots to help you stop    LOL

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6 hours ago, taylor1 said:

Still ride my airhead that I've had for 30 yrs+   If you buy one , don't forget a new pair of boots to help you stop    LOL

 

More lol..lol..  How true this is.  The airhead I'm drooling over is a primo condition '95 RT.  Very few were built (just over about 300) and I wonder if the last of the airheads maybe had improved brakes?  Don't know.  Thinking about selling the FJR to make room.  I just miss having an airhead.  Wife thinks I have a sickness, sometimes I wonder. lol..lol..

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Boulder Dave

I took a couple of days off.

Here is where I am at:

Halls Sensor- Assume good as bike failed before HES was rewired and failed in identical manner with rewired HES. Probability low HES is issue.
Fuel system- All tank internals replaced, fuel pressure and flow check good. Injectors are firing. Fuel pump primes. Probability low fuel is issue.
Valve adjust- Valve check was all valves in spec. Probability very low valve lash is issue.
Wiring- I have visually inspected all wiring, clutch, sidestand switches and all appears normal. I have not removed all wire sheathing, but I am going with the wiring is not the issue.
Timing- Bike goes from running perfect to off, then gradually returns to running condition. Assume timing is good.
Motronic- Removed unit, disconnected connector and cleaned contacts, reinstalled. No obvious issues per visual inspect.
Ignition- I have spark even with bike in non-start condition. Spark does not look robust, but not really sure.

My prime suspect is ignition. I have ordered a new coil, wires, plugs. If new ignition components don't solve issue, will look for replacement motronic.

The thing that has me stumped is the bike always returns to running fine after about two hours post failure. That smacks of an electrical issue brought on by heat and/or heat expansion. It seems like a broken or shaffed wire would be more random in failure and return to running.

Damn bike.

Will report back.

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dirtrider

Morning Dave

 

Halls Sensor- Assume good as bike failed before HES was rewired and failed in identical manner with rewired HES. Probability low HES is issue.  --  This is probably a good asumption.  


Fuel system- All tank internals replaced, fuel pressure and flow check good. Injectors are firing. Fuel pump primes. Probability low fuel is issue.  --  How did you check the fuel pressure & flow? How is your fuel pressure & flow right after it quits? If it is checked when it is running OK, or checked when it will start & run OK then nothing confirmed with this yet. Are you getting a good fuel RETURN flow right at engine quit?????????????????


Valve adjust- Valve check was all valves in spec. Probability very low valve lash is issue.  -- The valve adjustment could cause some issues but almost never a complete  engine quit so this definitely low probability.    


Wiring- I have visually inspected all wiring, clutch, sidestand switches and all appears normal. I have not removed all wire sheathing, but I am going with the wiring is not the issue. -- This being the problem  is probably low EXCEPT the red or green wires right at the steering head neck, those two wires are a known issue in engine quitting on the old BMW boxer bikes. The engine quit due to either of those two wires doesn't usually match up to your current problem but it can't be ruled out either. 


Timing- Bike goes from running perfect to off, then gradually returns to running condition. Assume timing is good.
Motronic- Removed unit, disconnected connector and cleaned contacts, reinstalled. No obvious issues per visual inspect. -- Agree it doesn't even sound close to an ignition timing issue. Still could be a Motronic issue (what is the tachometer doing right at engine quitting?????) this can tell us a LOT about the problem's root. 


Ignition- I have spark even with bike in non-start condition. Spark does not look robust, but not really sure. -- See if the spark looks any better when tested with the engine running properly.

My prime suspect is ignition. I have ordered a new coil, wires, plugs. If new ignition components don't solve issue, will look for replacement motronic. -- Still not enough solid info for me to say that, especially with you still getting a spark right at & right after engine quit. 

The thing that has me stumped is the bike always returns to running fine after about two hours post failure. That smacks of an electrical issue brought on by heat and/or heat expansion. It seems like a broken or shaffed wire would be more random in failure and return to running. --   Or smacks of a fuel flow issue like a hot pump quit, or partially plugged pump intake sock sucking shut, or possibly a plugged tank vent, etc. Are you getting fuel return flow right at engine quit?????? If so then probably not a fuel issue, if NOT then probably a fuel flow issue. 

 

At next engine quit see if you are getting a fuel spray from the fuel injectors (or at least check for good fuel RETURN flow from the rear fuel return hose).  

 

You might also replace the #5 fuse, kind of a long shot but I have seen fuses with a little crack in the fuse element that opens up when hot. But with you still having a spark after quit  this is a very low probability. 
 

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Boulder Dave
8 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Dave

 

Halls Sensor- Assume good as bike failed before HES was rewired and failed in identical manner with rewired HES. Probability low HES is issue.  --  This is probably a good asumption.  


Fuel system- All tank internals replaced, fuel pressure and flow check good. Injectors are firing. Fuel pump primes. Probability low fuel is issue.  --  How did you check the fuel pressure & flow? How is your fuel pressure & flow right after it quits? If it is checked when it is running OK, or checked when it will start & run OK then nothing confirmed with this yet. Are you getting a good fuel RETURN flow right at engine quit?????????????????


Valve adjust- Valve check was all valves in spec. Probability very low valve lash is issue.  -- The valve adjustment could cause some issues but almost never a complete  engine quit so this definitely low probability.    


Wiring- I have visually inspected all wiring, clutch, sidestand switches and all appears normal. I have not removed all wire sheathing, but I am going with the wiring is not the issue. -- This being the problem  is probably low EXCEPT the red or green wires right at the steering head neck, those two wires are a known issue in engine quitting on the old BMW boxer bikes. The engine quit due to either of those two wires doesn't usually match up to your current problem but it can't be ruled out either. 


Timing- Bike goes from running perfect to off, then gradually returns to running condition. Assume timing is good.
Motronic- Removed unit, disconnected connector and cleaned contacts, reinstalled. No obvious issues per visual inspect. -- Agree it doesn't even sound close to an ignition timing issue. Still could be a Motronic issue (what is the tachometer doing right at engine quitting?????) this can tell us a LOT about the problem's root. 


Ignition- I have spark even with bike in non-start condition. Spark does not look robust, but not really sure. -- See if the spark looks any better when tested with the engine running properly.

My prime suspect is ignition. I have ordered a new coil, wires, plugs. If new ignition components don't solve issue, will look for replacement motronic. -- Still not enough solid info for me to say that, especially with you still getting a spark right at & right after engine quit. 

The thing that has me stumped is the bike always returns to running fine after about two hours post failure. That smacks of an electrical issue brought on by heat and/or heat expansion. It seems like a broken or shaffed wire would be more random in failure and return to running. --   Or smacks of a fuel flow issue like a hot pump quit, or partially plugged pump intake sock sucking shut, or possibly a plugged tank vent, etc. Are you getting fuel return flow right at engine quit?????? If so then probably not a fuel issue, if NOT then probably a fuel flow issue. 

 

At next engine quit see if you are getting a fuel spray from the fuel injectors (or at least check for good fuel RETURN flow from the rear fuel return hose).  

 

You might also replace the #5 fuse, kind of a long shot but I have seen fuses with a little crack in the fuse element that opens up when hot. But with you still having a spark after quit  this is a very low probability. 
 

Thx. 
 

I will really focus on the red and green wiring near the neck. Ignition key wiring or other?

 

I have not noticed any unusual tach behavior.

 

All fuel tank components are new and checked with a gauge (43psi and holds). Fuel return good. Next time bike dies I will confirm fuel pressure/flow in non-start condition. I think I already did this, but will do it again to be sure. 
 

I have confirmed injectors spray in non-running condition. 
 

Fuse #5 was good, but I replaced anyway. 
 

New coil, wires, plugs will be here tomorrow. Will report back with results. 
 

Really appreciate your help!

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dirtrider
18 minutes ago, Boulder Dave said:

Thx. 
 

I will really focus on the red and green wiring near the neck. Ignition key wiring or other?

 

I have not noticed any unusual tach behavior.

 

All fuel tank components are new and checked with a gauge (43psi and holds). Fuel return good. Next time bike dies I will confirm fuel pressure/flow in non-start condition. I think I already did this, but will do it again to be sure. 
 

I have confirmed injectors spray in non-running condition. 
 

Fuse #5 was good, but I replaced anyway. 
 

New coil, wires, plugs will be here tomorrow. Will report back with results. 
 

Really appreciate your help!

Evening Dave 

 

I will really focus on the red and green wiring near the neck. Ignition key wiring or other? -- Yes, those can cause an instant stall & no re-start

 

I have not noticed any unusual tach behavior.-- Usually an HES issue will show up in a very erratic tac just before stall.

 

All fuel tank components are new and checked with a gauge (43psi and holds). Fuel return good. Next time bike dies I will confirm fuel pressure/flow in non-start condition. I think I already did this, but will do it again to be sure.-- You might need to eventually rig up a longer return hose (clear hose) to watch that hose for fuel return flow right at engine stall.  This can quickly tell you if you are barking up the correct tree. 
 

I have confirmed injectors spray in non-running condition.-- This is somewhat confusing as you said above you had spark & this says you have fuel spray so either one or the other isn't as it seems or you are spraying in something that won't ignite.  
 

Fuse #5 was good, but I replaced anyway. 
 

New coil, wires, plugs will be here tomorrow. Will report back with results. -- Let us know on this. 

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FYI

My 1100 had a similar restart after a cooldown issue. Turned out to be the fuel pump relay.

Didn't see where you swapped that out. 

You wouldn't hear the fuel pump cycle on for a few seconds when the key was turned on before cranking when in failure mode.

DR had me wire LED's in parallel on the fuel pump and coil hot wires. Finally caught the issue happening. $7 relay at an auto parts store.

Dave_a

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Boulder Dave
9 hours ago, dave_a said:

FYI

My 1100 had a similar restart after a cooldown issue. Turned out to be the fuel pump relay.

Didn't see where you swapped that out. 

You wouldn't hear the fuel pump cycle on for a few seconds when the key was turned on before cranking when in failure mode.

DR had me wire LED's in parallel on the fuel pump and coil hot wires. Finally caught the issue happening. $7 relay at an auto parts store.

Dave_a

Immediately after failure and during cool down, I always hear the pump prime. However, easy swap just to take it out of the equation. Thx. 

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Boulder Dave

Success?

 

I’m not declaring victory yet, but the signs are promising. 
 

Installed new coil, plug wires, and plugs. Swapped horn and fuel pump relays. 
 

Took bike out for a 30 minute test ride. No fail. 
 

Going to do a few other maintenance items while Tupperware is off. Then more test rides around the hood. 
 

My money was on bad coil. 
 

Will follow up about subsequent tests just to hopefully put a bow on this thread. 
 

I appreciate all the suggestions and help. 

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