Clutch lever went out…

[Hadabadachada]

Me again.

 

riding home tonight on the highway, got into some traffic, of course, lever started feeling weird, then it went to mush, shoot.

managed to make it home another 15 miles clutchless thank goodness.

 

so either a line broke, or the slave broke…

 

check master thru glass, right in the middle like it has been, okay, must have an air bubble.  Bleed from the slave big ol couple bubbles come out, but the fluid doesn’t look right, it’s grey, and it stinks.

 

sad part is, I just put in a new slave I think in October. 

Im assuming the slave gave out, and it’s now shooting fluid into the clutch? 
bastages. 
guess I should probably not pull the lever anymore, it’s probably already too late? 
I don’t really know.

guess I just need to pull the slave and have a look, 

does this sound about right?

[Hadabadachada]

Pulled the thing out, I can’t wait, no noticeable fluid leaking though, able to compress the diaphragm, there is a little moisture as you can see, but it doesn’t look super bad to me, dirty, it’s hard to clean that passage, I mean how does dirt even get in there?

 

guess I put it back together and bleed the system really good again?

 

i just wonder how it just went away like that? Bubble found it’s way to somewhere good/bad? Master cylinder? I dunno.

 

and how’s the fluid from the slave coming out grey? And super stinky? 
 

 

[Jim Moore]

Normally the bearing cage collapses first. How does the throwout bearing feel when you turn it? IF it feels "grindy" and the bearing is loose, you need a new slave cylinder.

 

My bet? You need a new slave cylinder.

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Pulled the thing out, I can’t wait, no noticeable fluid leaking though, able to compress the diaphragm, there is a little moisture as you can see, but it doesn’t look super bad to me, dirty, it’s hard to clean that passage, I mean how does dirt even get in there?

 

guess I put it back together and bleed the system really good again?

 

i just wonder how it just went away like that? Bubble found it’s way to somewhere good/bad? Master cylinder? I dunno.

 

and how’s the fluid from the slave coming out grey? And super stinky? 
 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

I have seen this problem on the BMW 1200 bikes but very few on the 1150 bikes. On the 1200 it usually happens after a long freeway run at higher RPM's with no clutch usage. Never seems to happen around town with lots of clutch usage. 

 

On the 1200 bike it is caused by the piston in the slave vibrating just enough to act as an air pump so it takes in air past the piston seal then that air settles in the high spots in the clutch line causing a loss of clutch action. 

 

On the 1200 bike rerouting the clutch hydraulic  line to not have  any dips or high spots usually stops the problem. 

 

Your slave doesn't look to be leaking fluid or grease so not sure what to tell you. Your problem is more than likely a slave piston seal issue (leaks air in but doesn't leak fluid out) but the problem could be aggravated by a problem causing the clutch push rod to vibrate at constant higher RPM's therefore vibrating the slave piston. 

 

So start by making sure your clutch hydraulic line is routed correctly, not zip tied to force any high spots or force incorrect routing.

 

Then don't ride for long distances at high RPM's without using the clutch occasionally  (using the clutch moves the air bubbles into larger bubbles that hopefully work their way up into the master cylinder).

 

If it happens again you can usually bleed the air out of the clutch hydraulic line by getting the front of the motorcycle as high as possible (way high) like up a very steep ramp or driveway. Then setting the clutch lever to max  displacement (lever setting out as far as possible) then aggressively pulling the clutch lever in then sliding your hand off of the lever allowing it to snap back out quickly (you need to do this a number of times).

 

If it happens on every (or often) long freeway ride then you probably will need a new slave cylinder, if it still happens with a new slave cylinder then you will have to track down a problem with the clutch parts causing the release push rod to pulsate or vibrate.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lowndes]

7 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

how does dirt even get in there?

 

Hadabadachada,

 

Do you have a "weep hole" in the slave cyl housing?? 

 

If you do and it's just a hole, that might be the source of the "dirt".   

 

If not, you should consider making one while the slave cyl is out.  If you ever have a slave cyl leak, a large enough weep hole will prevent the hydraulic fluid from ruining your clutch (a good thing). To reduce the chance of outside "dirt" from entering the slave cyl face thru a weep hole, install a drain tube going straight down to the bottom of the transmission.

 

The "throwout bearing" that Jim Moore refers to above is in the piston in the slave cyl.  If that bearing fails/locks up then the piston seal fails and leaks the hydraulic fluid.

 

 

All that dirt isn't helping the bearing seal or the piston seal.  Be sure to clean under the circlip, too. 

 

That little bearing turns with the crankshaft whenever the engine is running, and with the clutch "in" or "out".

[Hadabadachada]

Lots of great info.

 

this did happen during a long stretch of high speed, spot on.

never had it happen before on any road trips, ie, hours and hours and hours at 70-90mph. but last night was like 10-15 miles at 90-110mph, then it kinda crept in. Went to change gears like wtf, why is the engagement point way at the bottom of the lever pull when it’s usually at the end? Like that till there was nothing.

 

that grey fluid got me scared. but seeing that it’s not leaking after having a look got me confused. What would make the fluid grey, almost metallic looking. And smells kinda burnt like?

probably some bobo cheap aftermarket slave from EME. 
everything is routed in stock form, I’ve done nothing to the lines so I’m not going to worry about that. 

 

I’ll have to figure out a weep hole, that sounds like a great idea. 

guess I’ll just clean it up and try and bleed it real good again. Or see if a friend has a pressure bleeder. 
 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Lots of great info.

 

this did happen during a long stretch of high speed, spot on.

never had it happen before on any road trips, ie, hours and hours and hours at 70-90mph. but last night was like 10-15 miles at 90-110mph, then it kinda crept in. Went to change gears like wtf, why is the engagement point way at the bottom of the lever pull when it’s usually at the end? Like that till there was nothing.

 

that grey fluid got me scared. but seeing that it’s not leaking after having a look got me confused. What would make the fluid grey, almost metallic looking. And smells kinda burnt like?

probably some bobo cheap aftermarket slave from EME. 
everything is routed in stock form, I’ve done nothing to the lines so I’m not going to worry about that. 

 

I’ll have to figure out a weep hole, that sounds like a great idea. 

guess I’ll just clean it up and try and bleed it real good again. Or see if a friend has a pressure bleeder. 
 

Morning Hadabadachada

 

Until you get it figured out just get in the habit of using the clutch a few times during those long high speed runs. 

 

On drilling a drain hole, you need to be very very carful in doing that with the transmission still in the motorcycle as it is REAL EASY to drill into the seal area & ruin the transmission (a very costly mistake) 

 

I usually recommend just slotting the slave cylinder gasket on the very bottom (about a 1/8" to 3/16" slot in the gasket) , that allows slave leakage drainage without the possibility of mis-drilling into the seal area. (the later BMW 1200 bikes don't even use a gasket between the slave & transmission) 

 

 

[Hadabadachada]

good info, I was about to buy a drill bit.

I like the little gasket slot deal.

 

any good way to clean everything up? Brake cleaner, electronics cleaner? Wd40?

 

I replaced my, as far as I know, original slave because I noticed the fluid brown in the master, didn’t flush and check again.

 

now that I have grey fluid and smells burnt, I wonder if I should put the old one back in and get a good flush, or put the new one in and flush. 

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

good info, I was about to buy a drill bit.

I like the little gasket slot deal.

 

any good way to clean everything up? Brake cleaner, electronics cleaner? Wd40?

 

I replaced my, as far as I know, original slave because I noticed the fluid brown in the master, didn’t flush and check again.

 

now that I have grey fluid and smells burnt, I wonder if I should put the old one back in and get a good flush, or put the new one in and flush. 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

I definitely wouldn't put the old one back in. 

As far as cleaning this one, why? It doesn't look that bad & once installed the piston will be retracted back in the bore so the piston won't come anywhere near that retaining E- clip. 

 

You don't want to use anything that will degrade or swell the piston seal (most petroleum based cleaners could harm the piston seal).

 

As far as replacing the slave, probably the best & safest bet but is expensive. (personally I would probably replace it just out of caution)   

[Hadabadachada]

I’m in a email chain with EME who obviously won’t replace an installed part, but I have the dates, installed oct 25,  covered 2000 miles since then, and that’s it, slave is filling the master up with wavy grey fluid, I just checked. 

this is dumb

 

i wonder, should I pack that bearing in the middle with grease? Seems like the bearing would like it…

 

[dirtrider]

7 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I’m in a email chain with EME who obviously won’t replace an installed part, but I have the dates, installed oct 25,  covered 2000 miles since then, and that’s it, slave is filling the master up with wavy grey fluid, I just checked. 

this is dumb

 

i wonder, should I pack that bearing in the middle with grease? Seems like the bearing would like it…

 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

 

If the bearing feels rough when spun by hand then replace the slave, if the bearing feels OK then I wouldn't mess with it. If you over grease the bearing then that excess grease can migrate into & past the piston seal degrading the seal. 

 

I don't know what to tell you on the grey fluid as grease from the bearing usually turns the fluid dark, like brown or black. 

 

Start by spinning the bearing with your finger to feel for roughness, then make a plan from that info. 

[Hadabadachada]

Yeah I shoulda mentioned, and that’s why I asked about grease.

i “new” one, which failed or at least is turning the fluid grey, the bearing does feel rough.

the old original magura  that I took out because it seemed like it turned the fluid dark, feels pretty smooth, so I’m thinking I’ll put that one in for the time being.

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Yeah I shoulda mentioned, and that’s why I asked about grease.

i “new” one, which failed or at least is turning the fluid grey, the bearing does feel rough.

the old original magura  that I took out because it seemed like it turned the fluid dark, feels pretty smooth, so I’m thinking I’ll put that one in for the time being.

IMG_8749.MOV

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

If you are using the well used stock slave you might look into putting a Beemer BoneYard rebuild kit in it . 

 

https://www.beemerboneyard.com/21522335061rk.html

 

It's out of stock at the moment but you might call them to see when it will be back in stock.

 

Dan Cata also makes a repair kit, might be the same as the Beemer BoneYard kit as they carry some of his offerings. 

 

https://boxer-upgrades.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/3818419

[Hadabadachada]

Thank you, I just got off of the beemer boneyard site and saw those. 
will be looking into that, looked like 35 bucks, EME sells a rebuild for 80 bucks, sup wit that? 
 

Are those the two main sources for things, boneyard and EME ? other than the eBay on one side and the stealership on the other? 
 

this is original, notice the bearing race thingy in the middle is elevated. Spins pretty smooth. 

this is the 2 month old aftermarket one, that inner round is pretty much flush with the surrounding.  Also feels like a reel bearing that’s been in the salt water.

I don’t know what kinda bearing but I feel like the race broke, assuming there was one.

 

[Hadabadachada]

Guess I didn’t think of it till now, what are the chances the clutch, maybe wearing out, end of life, somehow destroyed the slave bearing?

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Guess I didn’t think of it till now, what are the chances the clutch, maybe wearing out, end of life, somehow destroyed the slave bearing?

Evening  Hadabadachada

 

Worn clutch should make no difference as it just pushes the piston back a bit farther. The pushrod contacts the bearing & spins it either way so no difference in wear.

 

On the rebuild kit, I haven't ever installed a Dan Cata kit but have used other items that he sells & they seem to be decent.  Beemer Boneyard is probably the safest as they carry good parts, they also sell some Dan Cata items.

[Lowndes]

Hadabadachata,

 

When you bleed the clutch hydraulic system, do you completely flush the system or just get the bubbles out??

[Hadabadachada]

Completely flush.

I’ve only ever done it twice, first was replacing the slave 2 months ago, took awhile to get everything filled and cleared. Second was this time.

Prefilled the old slave before I installed it this time, saved a lot of time and effort. 
feels back to normal. I just have to keep in mind I have a 50,000+ mile slave back in there. 
 

I only replaced it because the fluid was dirty. Brown, maybe it was just old fluid. I was worried the slave may be failing so I bought the after market from EME, I’m assuming it’s duralast like everything else they sell, but I don’t know.

I’ll be keeping an eye on the fluid probably twice a month or 3 or 4 I dunno. Sucks I’m gonna have this in the back of my head everyday now lol.

[Lowndes]

4 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

Completely flush.

I’ve only ever done it twice, first was replacing the slave 2 months ago, took awhile to get everything filled and cleared. Second was this time.

Prefilled the old slave before I installed it this time, saved a lot of time and effort. 
feels back to normal. I just have to keep in mind I have a 50,000+ mile slave back in there. 
 

I only replaced it because the fluid was dirty. Brown, maybe it was just old fluid. I was worried the slave may be failing so I bought the after market from EME, I’m assuming it’s duralast like everything else they sell, but I don’t know.

I’ll be keeping an eye on the fluid probably twice a month or 3 or 4 I dunno. Sucks I’m gonna have this in the back of my head everyday now lol.

 

So, how long did it take to turn it into the grey, stinky fluid??

[Hadabadachada]

I installed this new slave 2 months ago almost to the day. I’ve covered about 2000 miles.

 

im thankful I didn’t change it before my last trip.

Before my trip I checked the fluid, kinda dirty, emptied master and replaced fluid. On the trip, it felt like the clutch was dragging a little, here and there, but I was never 100% because of all the inclines in the mountains, maybe it was just the road grade. Checked the fluid at the pit stop in Fontana just to see, had to get gas and buy a screwdriver, didn’t want to pop the seat to get in the tool kit, fluid was brownish dirty.  Probably from the left over fluid, but it worried me that maybe the slave was failing. When I got home I ordered the new slave and put it in, oct 24 or something. So not long, something ain’t right. 

[Lowndes]

Do you still have the OEM hydraulic line from the master to the slave cyl, or has that been changed to the newer, smaller, braided-stainless line??

[Hadabadachada]

Good question. The line coming from the master is thin, black, looks braided.

but the line that goes into the slave is a thick rubber hose, so I guess I am not really sure. 
bike is an 04, so built in 03

[Hadabadachada]

So I spoke to eme again, this guy actually sent me a new slave cylinder when I told him what happened, what a guy, definitely boosted me feelings for them.

 

which makes me think, I gotta do a full on rear brake job, rotor, all that, so I was thinking of doing a caliper rebuild. 
 

Gotta figure a way to plug the rear brake line so it isn’t as much of an issue, I’d imagine if the abs unit gets full of air it’s not fun. 
also, maybe someone who’s done a caliper rebuild can tell me, is there usually a need to replace the pistons? I’d like to spend as little as possible, reusing them would be nice. 
 

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

So I spoke to eme again, this guy actually sent me a new slave cylinder when I told him what happened, what a guy, definitely boosted me feelings for them.

 

which makes me think, I gotta do a full on rear brake job, rotor, all that, so I was thinking of doing a caliper rebuild. 
 

Gotta figure a way to plug the rear brake line so it isn’t as much of an issue, I’d imagine if the abs unit gets full of air it’s not fun. 
also, maybe someone who’s done a caliper rebuild can tell me, is there usually a need to replace the pistons? I’d like to spend as little as possible, reusing them would be nice. 
 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

You might as well allow the fluid to drain out of the rear as you really don't want to run old skunky fluid through a new fresh caliper rebuild if possible. Your later 1100S should have the I-ABS pump so those bleed the wheel circuits pretty easily as they use the pump to power bleed that part.

 

On caliper pistons, no way to know until you take it apart, if they look good re-use them, if not then try to find new (or good used) pistons. I don't think BMW services the rear caliper pistons on the late  I-ABS  1100S. 

[Hadabadachada]

Yeah the only pistons I found are on EME as an after market, 55 bucks a set. Guess I’ll just buy them incase, maybe I can send them back if I don’t need them. 
Would hate to do the job, need them and not have them. 
mines is an 04, with the servo brakes. Guess I didn’t have to do anything special when I changed the brake lines, I’m sure that let some air into the ABS unit.  the GS911 should have something to help me if need be, like to cycle the ABS.

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

Yeah the only pistons I found are on EME as an after market, 55 bucks a set. Guess I’ll just buy them incase, maybe I can send them back if I don’t need them. 
Would hate to do the job, need them and not have them. 
mines is an 04, with the servo brakes. Guess I didn’t have to do anything special when I changed the brake lines, I’m sure that let some air into the ABS unit.  the GS911 should have something to help me if need be, like to cycle the ABS.

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

The wheel side circuits (calipers) are fairly straight forward to bleed on the I-ABS (Wizzy)  systems  (even if allowed to empty) as those circuits use the servo pump to power bleed (no GS-911 required).

 

It's the control side circuits that are a bit more delicate & difficult. With just a caliper rebuild the only side that NEEDS to be bled is the wheel circuits as no air can get into the control circuits from the caliper. You will have to access the ABS controller under the fuel tank to fill & keep the internal fluid reservoirs filled while bleeding.  

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 12/22/2021 at 7:03 AM, dirtrider said:

I have seen this problem on the BMW 1200 bikes but very few on the 1150 bikes. On the 1200 it usually happens after a long freeway run at higher RPM's with no clutch usage.

 

Happened to me and @Lone_RT_rider with '08 and '09 1200RTs on our way to Torrey in 2011.  It was a 500-mile run from Lincoln, NE to the Denver area, and by the end both our clutches were spongy-feeling.  

 

On 12/22/2021 at 7:03 AM, dirtrider said:

If it happens again you can usually bleed the air out of the clutch hydraulic line by getting the front of the motorcycle as high as possible (way high) like up a very steep ramp or driveway. Then setting the clutch lever to max  displacement (lever setting out as far as possible) then aggressively pulling the clutch lever in then sliding your hand off of the lever allowing it to snap back out quickly (you need to do this a number of times).

 

Yep.  We also did something with rerouting the clutch line as you mentioned, though I don't remember exactly what and can't find the thread where we were asking about it back then.  But as far as getting the nose high...yes, steep driveway and get some blocks under the centerstand so you tilt it back even further.  Here's Shawn having fun popping a wheelie with his bike:

 

 

Whatever we did back then worked, and neither of us had the spongy clutch problem ever again despite regular hours-long slab cruises.  

[dirtrider]

29 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Whatever we did back then worked, and neither of us had the spongy clutch problem ever again despite regular hours-long slab cruises.  

Afternoon Mitch 

 

I was the one that replied to your soft clutch lever issue back then (I remember you were on the road somewhere headed out west). I can't find that original post either but I'm sure that I probably told you to cut the existing clutch line zip ties, then refasten it with new zip ties to not have any dips or high spots (that was usually my standard reply back then to the soft clutch lever problem).

 

BMW finally came out with a campaign on that issue (not an actual service recall)  but for some reason only on the 1200 GS/GSA not the 1200 RT. (I have found the problem on the RT's as well as on the GS/GSA).