2013 R1200RT No Crank

[pmc7250]

Hi All,

 

I could use some wisdom here, I've got a 2013 RT that will not crank when pressing the starter button. There is no audible click from the starter relay when doing as you would expect.

 

I've got Motoscan Ultimate and read the error codes for the BMS-K and get the code 0x27F9 Starter Relay. As such I got a new starter relay from BMW but still the same issue. Using Motoscan I also verified the operation of the clutch switch, side stand switch, kill switch, and gear position switch by reading the status of this switches in real-time and watching the values change. 

 

I checked that there is constant 12v+ at the red wire input to the starter relay which there is. Further, I bypassed the relay and connected 12V to the starter directly and found that the starter turns over the motor just fine. 

 

After this I dug into the starter relay more by checking for loose/burnt connections in the crimped wire ends but found nothing questionable. From here, I disconnected the BMS-K and did a continuity test on the Black/Yellow and Brown/Purple starter relay trigger wires from the end of the ECU plug to the starter relay plug and found no issues there. I also performed continuity tests on both the red power wire going to the battery and the black wire going to the exciter terminal on the starter and found no problems there either. On a side note, the pins on the are all straight and none are bent, the female pins in the plug are all seated properly and are not loose, and lastly none of the female pins are damaged. 

 

From here I did some more research and found that this error code is issued when "DME detects a line break or short to ground at the output of the starter relay". That being said, a continuity test doesn't necessarily indicate that there isn't a break or short in the wire so I decided to cut the Black/Yellow and Brown/Purple starter relay trigger wires at each end and install new temporary jumper wires from the ECU plug to the starter relay plug. From the wiring diagram these two wires are the only ones driven by the ECU, the red power wire comes directly off the battery and is monitored by the ECU but not controlled given that it's an input. Even with these new jumper wires to the starter relay and jumper wires replacing the red and black wires the bike still will not crank and the fault code remains. Even if I clear the code, every-time I push the starter button it comes back. 

 

At this point I'm a bit lost and not sure where to go, the only things I can think of at this point are the following:

-Try new battery (I've kept this one on the charger and the battery voltage is good (~12.3-12.5V) but can't hurt to try a new one)

-Strip back the entire loom heat shrink and check for any breaks (though the fact that jumper wires still failed makes this seem unnecessary)

 

Any help here at all is incredibly appreciated. 

 

Thanks, Peter

 

[dirtrider]

17 hours ago, pmc7250 said:

Hi All,

 

I could use some wisdom here, I've got a 2013 RT that will not crank when pressing the starter button. There is no audible click from the starter relay when doing as you would expect.

 

I've got Motoscan Ultimate and read the error codes for the BMS-K and get the code 0x27F9 Starter Relay. As such I got a new starter relay from BMW but still the same issue. Using Motoscan I also verified the operation of the clutch switch, side stand switch, kill switch, and gear position switch by reading the status of this switches in real-time and watching the values change. 

 

I checked that there is constant 12v+ at the red wire input to the starter relay which there is. Further, I bypassed the relay and connected 12V to the starter directly and found that the starter turns over the motor just fine. 

 

After this I dug into the starter relay more by checking for loose/burnt connections in the crimped wire ends but found nothing questionable. From here, I disconnected the BMS-K and did a continuity test on the Black/Yellow and Brown/Purple starter relay trigger wires from the end of the ECU plug to the starter relay plug and found no issues there. I also performed continuity tests on both the red power wire going to the battery and the black wire going to the exciter terminal on the starter and found no problems there either. On a side note, the pins on the are all straight and none are bent, the female pins in the plug are all seated properly and are not loose, and lastly none of the female pins are damaged. 

 

From here I did some more research and found that this error code is issued when "DME detects a line break or short to ground at the output of the starter relay". That being said, a continuity test doesn't necessarily indicate that there isn't a break or short in the wire so I decided to cut the Black/Yellow and Brown/Purple starter relay trigger wires at each end and install new temporary jumper wires from the ECU plug to the starter relay plug. From the wiring diagram these two wires are the only ones driven by the ECU, the red power wire comes directly off the battery and is monitored by the ECU but not controlled given that it's an input. Even with these new jumper wires to the starter relay and jumper wires replacing the red and black wires the bike still will not crank and the fault code remains. Even if I clear the code, every-time I push the starter button it comes back. 

 

At this point I'm a bit lost and not sure where to go, the only things I can think of at this point are the following:

-Try new battery (I've kept this one on the charger and the battery voltage is good (~12.3-12.5V) but can't hurt to try a new one)

-Strip back the entire loom heat shrink and check for any breaks (though the fact that jumper wires still failed makes this seem unnecessary)

 

Any help here at all is incredibly appreciated. 

 

Thanks, Peter

 

Morning Peter

 

You have a LOT going there with all those tests & cut wires. (I am going to have to track all that on my wire diagrams to see what you actually did)

 

Before I do that (lot of work) is there ANY CHANCE that you have EWS showing on your dash with key-ON??????????????????????????

 

If you have EWS showing then THAT needs to be addressed before it will even attempt to start.

 

The other possible issue is, I have worked with others using the Motoscan & have had a few issues with it giving  incorrect fault codes  (mostly brake issues). Your fault codes might be correct, or slight possibility of being incorrect, so verify that before taking the  Motoscan codes as absolute gospel. 

 

If no EWS showing on the dash at key-ON then try a 30 minute battery disconnect as that (should)  re-set the BMS-KP if it is somehow locked out. 

 

Those BMW 1200 camhead motorcycles also had a LOT of issues with the handlebar switch pod switches so verify that the starter button is ACTUALLY doing enough to initiate start command. 

[Hosstage]

Deleted

[pmc7250]

13 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Peter

 

You have a LOT going there with all those tests & cut wires. (I am going to have to track all that on my wire diagrams to see what you actually did)

 

Before I do that (lot of work) is there ANY CHANCE that you have EWS showing on your dash with key-ON??????????????????????????

 

If you have EWS showing then THAT needs to be addressed before it will even attempt to start.

 

The other possible issue is, I have worked with others using the Motoscan & have had a few issues with it giving  incorrect fault codes  (mostly brake issues). Your fault codes might be correct, or slight possibility of being incorrect, so verify that before taking the  Motoscan codes as absolute gospel. 

 

If no EWS showing on the dash at key-ON then try a 30 minute battery disconnect as that (should)  re-set the BMS-KP if it is somehow locked out. 

 

Those BMW 1200 camhead motorcycles also had a LOT of issues with the handlebar switch pod switches so verify that the starter button is ACTUALLY doing enough to initiate start command. 

Thanks for the detailed response. I only have time at night to work on this so I might be slow to respond.

 

1. I do not see the EWS warning coming up. I've tried with both the main key and the spare key (when both are physically far away from each other) and have not seen the EWS warning light.

 

2. Turns out the version of Motoscan I had was quite old so I updated it but the results are the same. Though, I doubt there have been any real updates to the code base for an ~8 year old bike so the possibility of a bug is definitely still there.

 

3. Viewing the live data into the BMS-K in Motoscan I do see the state of the starter button changing from emergency mode to run position and then activating the starter relay. I've tried this a bunch of times now and the button seems perfectly fine. I pulled the switch apart to check the contacts and wires but everything looks alright. That being said, the inner electronics could be damaged but the ECU seems to receive its inputs just fine. 

 

4. I found this very similar related issue: Fault code '10444 Fuse activated for component block 3 starter relay, (EWS) ring aerial, ignition coils, injectors)' See this link https://forum.hexcode.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=57.0 and I wonder if this is the actual/related problem. Apparently all of these components have a common power output so it's definitely possible.

To start I'll check the internal resistance on the injectors and all 4 coils first given that it's easy to do. Though, it's definitely possible the power output for all of these is shorted within the loom somewhere. Either way, I'll start with that and see what happens.

 

 

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, pmc7250 said:

Thanks for the detailed response. I only have time at night to work on this so I might be slow to respond.

 

1. I do not see the EWS warning coming up. I've tried with both the main key and the spare key (when both are physically far away from each other) and have not seen the EWS warning light.

 

2. Turns out the version of Motoscan I had was quite old so I updated it but the results are the same. Though, I doubt there have been any real updates to the code base for an ~8 year old bike so the possibility of a bug is definitely still there.

 

3. Viewing the live data into the BMS-K in Motoscan I do see the state of the starter button changing from emergency mode to run position and then activating the starter relay. I've tried this a bunch of times now and the button seems perfectly fine. I pulled the switch apart to check the contacts and wires but everything looks alright. That being said, the inner electronics could be damaged but the ECU seems to receive its inputs just fine. 

 

4. I found this very similar related issue: Fault code '10444 Fuse activated for component block 3 starter relay, (EWS) ring aerial, ignition coils, injectors)' See this link https://forum.hexcode.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=57.0 and I wonder if this is the actual/related problem. Apparently all of these components have a common power output so it's definitely possible.

To start I'll check the internal resistance on the injectors and all 4 coils first given that it's easy to do. Though, it's definitely possible the power output for all of these is shorted within the loom somewhere. Either way, I'll start with that and see what happens.

 

 

Morning  pmc7250

 

This is probably going to be a,  keep looking & testing until you find the outlier causing the issue (basically what you are currently doing).

 

I went back & re-read your original post--  That (~12.3-12.5V)  is pretty low for a no-load battery, (should be over 12.6 to as high as 12.8). What is the battery voltage while trying to crank (start button held in) ? Should be over 10V, I have seen them crank at 9.5v but that is iffy. Actual starter can run at lower voltage but system control can drop out as system voltage drops under 10v.  (maybe you have already looked at this so just asking) 

 

You would think IF the antenna ring was shorted (or open) you would be getting an EWS at key ON.

 

You didn't mention what country that you are in but some countries have a  theft alarm pretty well standard. Does that motorcycle by chance have a factory theft alarm?  (that can effect cranking enable)

 

Otherwise (personally) I would want to verify the start button stays engaged all the way through cranking attempt. Can your Motoscan trap a data log? I have a GS-911 so I just set that to log data, then log the entire start event from key-ON until I push the start button, then while still holding the start button in (for about 10 seconds, then  past that for about another 10 seconds.  If the start button goes open during the starting attempt the data log should show that. 

 

On shorted injectors?-- Possible but they will still crank OK with open injectors so just unplug the injectors & try cranking it again. Same with the coils, I have cranked them with disconnected coils so try disconnecting the coils & try cranking.  If by chance one of the above allows it to crank then re-connect one by one until it won't crank (that is your smoking gun). 

 

One more thing-- When did this problem start happening? Just out of the blue?, or started happening randomly?, or after some service work?, or after a trailer ride?, or anything else happen to that motorcycle just before the problem appeared?

 

I will keep this in the back of my mind for a while as sometimes I think of things as as my subconscious works away in the background. 

 

 I already had a thought while typing this-- Anything unplugged or removed (like radio or ??) that left an open CAN (CAN buss) connector? Any open CAN connectors need a clipping resistor across them to prevent possible CAN RFI interference. 

[pmc7250]

Here's the backstory:

I inherited the bike from my father after he passed away a bit over 2 years ago in this non-running state without any info from him. I think he thought it was just some easy fix so nothing to talk about really. Anyway, I started digging into it and eventually found that the plastic housing for the camshaft sensor inside the right cylinder head had melted, gotten caught in the timing chain, and destroyed all the timing chain guides. That and there was a very noticeable burnt oil smell so basically I deduced that the bike overheated to a extreme point without shutting itself off; though I'm surprised there wasn't some sort of overheat automatic shutoff. Beyond that I can't really say for certain what and how it happened.

 

Anyway, I started pulling more of it apart and found some sensors and wires/heatshrink that clearly had melted from the heat and along with all the engine issues determined that to fix it the engine had to come apart to properly ascertain the state of it. 

 

From here, I basically disassembled the entire bike to get the engine out; making notes of anything that needed to be replaced. A number of the sensors needed to be replaced including the camshaft position sensor, crank position sensor, and cylinder temp sensor basically due to the wires being a bit more melted than I would call reasonable (that and the sensors aren't that expensive and critical to running). Eventually, got the engine out, tore it all down, and found it to be in a plenty rebuildable state with all the measurements within spec and no serious damage (somehow). The bike was always meticulously maintained and only has about 16k miles so I'm sure that helped. 

 

Fast forward several months, the engine is rebuilt and back together, I reinstalled the front fork/headlight assembly, subframe, ABS unit, airbox, final drive, suspension, etc, etc. Basically right now the bike is assembled to the bare minimum with everything critical connected and installed. Also, the primary coils and fuel regulator/injectors were replaced.

 

So with all that and your previous comment I realized the obvious. The extreme heat likely melted the power wire(s) for the starter relay/coils/injectors and is shorted somewhere causing the output to all of these components to be shut off. I decided to investigate the areas where the heat would be the highest which would be anywhere near the combustion chamber. Pulling back the heat wrap and tape from the primary coil wires on each side the wires for each coil were melted and stuck together. Whether or not they were actually shorting is hard to tell, it could just be the insulation that was melted. Regardless, I'm not leaving these like this and clipped both after the melted sections.

 

After this I installed another fully charged battery and checked the error codes again. I should note that I removed my starter relay jumpers wires, re-soldered the starter wires on both ends, and closed everything up with heat shrink and friction tape. Reading the error codes I got the same result. Then again, nothing on this bike has been easy so I didn't expect to get that lucky this time. Anyway, from here I think it's basically time to start stripping the tape off the loom and look for shorted/melted wires. At this point I'll probably just order a used wiring harness to strip for wires and connectors and use as a guide to trace the power wires for the starter relay, etc.

 

Either way, I really appreciate the help, I'm going to dig into this and I'll provide an update when I find the short. 

 

Thanks, Peter

 

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, pmc7250 said:

Here's the backstory:

I inherited the bike from my father after he passed away a bit over 2 years ago in this non-running state without any info from him. I think he thought it was just some easy fix so nothing to talk about really. Anyway, I started digging into it and eventually found that the plastic housing for the camshaft sensor inside the right cylinder head had melted, gotten caught in the timing chain, and destroyed all the timing chain guides. That and there was a very noticeable burnt oil smell so basically I deduced that the bike overheated to a extreme point without shutting itself off; though I'm surprised there wasn't some sort of overheat automatic shutoff. Beyond that I can't really say for certain what and how it happened.

 

Anyway, I started pulling more of it apart and found some sensors and wires/heatshrink that clearly had melted from the heat and along with all the engine issues determined that to fix it the engine had to come apart to properly ascertain the state of it. 

 

From here, I basically disassembled the entire bike to get the engine out; making notes of anything that needed to be replaced. A number of the sensors needed to be replaced including the camshaft position sensor, crank position sensor, and cylinder temp sensor basically due to the wires being a bit more melted than I would call reasonable (that and the sensors aren't that expensive and critical to running). Eventually, got the engine out, tore it all down, and found it to be in a plenty rebuildable state with all the measurements within spec and no serious damage (somehow). The bike was always meticulously maintained and only has about 16k miles so I'm sure that helped. 

 

Fast forward several months, the engine is rebuilt and back together, I reinstalled the front fork/headlight assembly, subframe, ABS unit, airbox, final drive, suspension, etc, etc. Basically right now the bike is assembled to the bare minimum with everything critical connected and installed. Also, the primary coils and fuel regulator/injectors were replaced.

 

So with all that and your previous comment I realized the obvious. The extreme heat likely melted the power wire(s) for the starter relay/coils/injectors and is shorted somewhere causing the output to all of these components to be shut off. I decided to investigate the areas where the heat would be the highest which would be anywhere near the combustion chamber. Pulling back the heat wrap and tape from the primary coil wires on each side the wires for each coil were melted and stuck together. Whether or not they were actually shorting is hard to tell, it could just be the insulation that was melted. Regardless, I'm not leaving these like this and clipped both after the melted sections.

 

After this I installed another fully charged battery and checked the error codes again. I should note that I removed my starter relay jumpers wires, re-soldered the starter wires on both ends, and closed everything up with heat shrink and friction tape. Reading the error codes I got the same result. Then again, nothing on this bike has been easy so I didn't expect to get that lucky this time. Anyway, from here I think it's basically time to start stripping the tape off the loom and look for shorted/melted wires. At this point I'll probably just order a used wiring harness to strip for wires and connectors and use as a guide to trace the power wires for the starter relay, etc.

 

Either way, I really appreciate the help, I'm going to dig into this and I'll provide an update when I find the short. 

 

Thanks, Peter

 

Mornings Peter

 

Wow, that is quite a backstory. 

 

With all that history I think your best tool is persistence. 

 

Can your Motoscan trap a data log?  If so set it up to trap a log starting before initial key on then log through key-on, start button push, then stop switch use, then stop switch back on, then clutch lever in/out,  then trans neutral to 1st then back to neutral, side stand retraction & deploy, etc.

 

Then put it into Excel format & post it up here (or PM it to me), I have looked at a lot or GS-911 logs so am somewhat familiar with proper looking logged data. Possibly I can spot something that will point you at something. 

 

 

[9Mary7]