Grabby Clutch

[JamesW]

Ever since day one my 1100RS has had kind of a grabby clutch.  I think some of the issue is related to the very tall transmission gears.  After the bike has been ridden a couple hours clutch engagement is hard to do smoothly and  it feels like clutch engagement is right now.  Very difficult to smoothly engage the clutch.  I could be wrong but I wonder if this is just the nature of the beast to some extent.  The problem seems worse when making a turn at an intersection when just engaging the clutch after making a stop and starting out again while turning.  The transmission gearing is very tall and I spend a lot of time in 4th gear when riding 60 in light traffic.  Usually don't shift into 5th until I can cruise 65+.  With a passenger on board the situation is much worse making it most difficult to modulate the clutch.  Anyway, I thought I would throw this out there and see if anyone sees this as maybe just one of the oilhead quirks especially a very early oilhead.  Most of the problem is experienced when starting out in first.  It's almost like 1st gear is just way too tall.  That and it's almost impossible to slip the clutch at all which probably isn't a good thing to do with this dry clutch anyway but still.

 

 

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, JamesW said:

Ever since day one my 1100RS has had kind of a grabby clutch.  I think some of the issue is related to the very tall transmission gears.  After the bike has been ridden a couple hours clutch engagement is hard to do smoothly and  it feels like clutch engagement is right now.  Very difficult to smoothly engage the clutch.  I could be wrong but I wonder if this is just the nature of the beast to some extent.  The problem seems worse when making a turn at an intersection when just engaging the clutch after making a stop and starting out again while turning.  The transmission gearing is very tall and I spend a lot of time in 4th gear when riding 60 in light traffic.  Usually don't shift into 5th until I can cruise 65+.  With a passenger on board the situation is much worse making it most difficult to modulate the clutch.  Anyway, I thought I would throw this out there and see if anyone sees this as maybe just one of the oilhead quirks especially a very early oilhead.  Most of the problem is experienced when starting out in first.  It's almost like 1st gear is just way too tall.  That and it's almost impossible to slip the clutch at all which probably isn't a good thing to do with this dry clutch anyway but still.

 

 

Morning  James

 

My first suggestion is to contact  JamesW as he is our resident expert on those very early (outlier) 1100RS motorcycles. 

 

OK all kidding aside, THAT is a darn good question, I have ridden some early 1100R bikes that had very aggressive engagement clutches & others that were easier to modulate. 

 

Problem is I drive so many  different vehicles a week or month plus ride a lot of different motorcycles, some my own & a lot as evaluation for others that I just don't pay attention to clutch engagement that much  (I just ride what I'm on & adjust my clutch/throttle usage to fit what I'm riding). 

 

BMW did make a full clutch package change on the 1100RS in about 11/1997 & to me that helped the clutch engagement smoothness but that is just subjective as I haven't ever ridden the clutch package change back to back (A/B/A)  on the same motorcycle.

 

The BIG problem with later (updated) clutch parts is that you need to change about everything in the clutch package (very expensive).

 

On your early 1100RS I do believe I would start with a new clutch cable & well lubricated cable barrel contact points & lubricate the clutch lever pivots. (make all the externals as smooth as possible) then see what you have.

 

I am not much of a clutch-slipper type rider on the BMW  dry clutch bikes (to me the clutch has 2 positions, engaged or disengaged (no in between), so personally I don't use much in-between).  So instead of slipping I tend to use an in/out/in/out/in/out lightly toggling across the friction point with each out adding a little more friction. 

 

Another thing to look at is,  if the motorcycle sits more than riding then some rust on the clutch parts can make a BMW oilhead clutch feel very aggressive, difficult to modulate, & grabby feeling. 

 

I did check my service bulletins & about all I can find on the early 1100RS clutch is that clutch package change in about 11/1997.  

 

 

[JamesW]

Morning D.R.,

The first sentence through me for a second ( lol..lol.. ) and I wish I was an expert but that could be bad for what's left of my mind. More lol..lol..  Interesting about the clutch package change in '97 and I can guess what that would cost.  I kind of remember my (departed) '04 R1150RT developing a similar problem and maybe problem is a bit harsh but it did seem to become more grabby as it heated up during a long ride.  I might disassemble the clutch this winter and see what I can see.  I've also noticed a slight squeak sound that occurs just as the clutch fully engages.  We shall see.  Oh, when I used to live in the wilds of Eastern Oregon I never would have noticed an issue like this because I virtually never encountered much in town stop and go riding at all but in this little overrun tourist Mecca things are different, much different. Grrrrrr....  If only my wife would come to her senses.

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, JamesW said:

Morning D.R.,

The first sentence through me for a second ( lol..lol.. ) and I wish I was an expert but that could be bad for what's left of my mind. More lol..lol..  Interesting about the clutch package change in '97 and I can guess what that would cost.  I kind of remember my (departed) '04 R1150RT developing a similar problem and maybe problem is a bit harsh but it did seem to become more grabby as it heated up during a long ride.  I might disassemble the clutch this winter and see what I can see.  I've also noticed a slight squeak sound that occurs just as the clutch fully engages.  We shall see.  Oh, when I used to live in the wilds of Eastern Oregon I never would have noticed an issue like this because I virtually never encountered much in town stop and go riding at all but in this little overrun tourist Mecca things are different, much different. Grrrrrr....  If only my wife would come to her senses.

Morning James

 

 I kind of remember my (departed) '04 R1150RT developing a similar problem and maybe problem is a bit harsh but it did seem to become more grabby as it heated up during a long ride.--  The 1150 clutch can be a little different as those had hydraulic clutches, some with age & usage would get enough wear or, ??, or grease bleed in the slave cylinder to take some air in while riding & that can drastically change the clutch engagement point & make them feel grabby after getting hot or riding for while. 

 

 

[Hosstage]

For my own knowledge, is this a cable actuated or hydraulic clutch?

[dirtrider]

Just now, Hosstage said:

For my own knowledge, is this a cable actuated or hydraulic clutch?

Morning Hosstage

 

Yes, the 1100RS 5 speed has a cable operated clutch. 

[Hosstage]

2 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Hosstage

 

Yes, the 1100RS 5 speed has a cable operated clutch. 

Thanks dr. Then I would ask, James, is that cable and clutch handle, and any accessible moving parts serviced and lubed on a regular basis? I know it doesn't solve the grabbing issue, but all the little things add up to smoother operation.

Also, how old is the cable, might it be time to replace it? I've seen them fray internally and cause issues.

I'm not trying to sidetrack this thread, just looking at the overall picture of clutch operation. (I have lubed cables for many friends that neglect it, they are always pretty shocked at how nicely it works again.)

[dirtrider]

Morning  James

 

There is one thing I am trying to chase down for you yet, I have an old service bulletin (dated march of 1994) that refers to a clutch lever change/update on the 1100RS. But no part numbers given, or  change-over date given, or reason for the update. 

 

My new parts books don't show any superseded parts, I have some older parts books (somewhere) in my shop attic so (IF) I can find a very old one possibly I can glean something from that. 

[dirtrider]

37 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Thanks dr. Then I would ask, James, is that cable and clutch handle, and any accessible moving parts serviced and lubed on a regular basis? I know it doesn't solve the grabbing issue, but all the little things add up to smoother operation.

Also, how old is the cable, might it be time to replace it? I've seen them fray internally and cause issues.

I'm not trying to sidetrack this thread, just looking at the overall picture of clutch operation. (I have lubed cables for many friends that neglect it, they are always pretty shocked at how nicely it works again.)

Morning  Hosstage

 

In lubing the 1100RS clutch cable you need to be careful as most of those clutch cables had a nylon or teflon liner in them (James has a very early 1100RS so I'm not sure on that having a liner or not, it very well might).  Using  conventional petroleum based cable lube, or motor oil, can swell the nylon or teflon liner & eventually make the cable drag worse, or actually allow the cable to wear through the liner in the bends  (they feel better right after lubing but get worse after the liner starts softening).

 

If in doubt then use something like Tri-Flow with PTFE & even then the older (original) not made anymore Tri-Flow is better.

[Hosstage]

13 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  Hosstage

 

In lubing the 1100RS clutch cable you need to be careful as most of those clutch cables had a nylon or teflon liner in them (James has a very early 1100RS so I'm not sure on that having a liner or not, it very well might).  Using  conventional petroleum based cable lube, or motor oil, can swell the nylon or teflon liner & eventually make the cable drag worse, or actually allow the cable to wear through the liner in the bends  (they feel better right after lubing but get worse after the liner starts swelling).

 

If in doubt then use something like Tri-Flow with PTFE & even then the older (original) not made anymore Tri-Flow is better.

Thanks dr, I didn't think about the Teflon liner, that is a valid point. I am also a fan of Tri Flow lube, I didn't realize the recipe had changed.

 

[JamesW]

Hi Hostage,  I've never replaced the clutch cable and it is the original and the bike only has 12,883 original miles all put on by me.  It has never once been in the wet and spends all its time sitting in my heated shop so yup, she is a garage queen.  The clutch lever doesn't show any sign of binding and seems very smooth in operation of course that might not mean much because of the mechanical advantage offered by the lever itself.  If I put a clutch kit in it I'll replace the cable.  Maybe I'll just replace the cable first just to see what it feels like.  Might even get lucky. 

 

I just did the clutch adjustment and the gap as measured at the lever was a bit tight at 3mm rather than 5mm.  The gap between the lock nut and the adjuster is spot on.  I forgot about the 1150 having a hydraulic clutch.  I'm pretty sure I was thinking about my old (departed) R100RT.

 

 

[JamesW]

Just looked on Bob's BMW parts for a complete clutch assembly minus the clutch housing and the cost is, wait for it, $870 plus a small amount for new bolts and washers.  

 

A new clutch pack for my FJR is only about $135 and if I want to really splurge on the new slipper clutch it's a whopping $330.  The slipper clutch would give it a softer clutch lever pull which I don't need or want but some folks like them.  Oh, and you can slip the clutch pretty much all you want.  I know a wet clutch compared to a dry version by nature isn't apples and apples but jeez Louise!   

 

That said a BMW is the only bike I've ever ridden, especially this R1100RSL, that I can ride from gas stop to gas stop all day and never stop for any other reason and feel absolutely great at days end.  Yesterday I rode about 200 miles only stopping for gas on mostly twisty two lanes and when I got home I absolutely felt relaxed and not one bit tired or sore.  I would have felt lousy had I been driving my car or just about any car that I know of including the FJR.  And I'm 78 years old. So, I might gripe and complain but if she needs a new clutch she gets one!

 

 

[Jim Moore]

10 hours ago, JamesW said:

Hi Hostage,  I've never replaced the clutch cable and it is the original and the bike only has 12,883 original miles all put on by me.  It has never once been in the wet and spends all its time sitting in my heated shop so yup, she is a garage queen.  The clutch lever doesn't show any sign of binding and seems very smooth in operation of course that might not mean much because of the mechanical advantage offered by the lever itself.  If I put a clutch kit in it I'll replace the cable.  Maybe I'll just replace the cable first just to see what it feels like.  Might even get lucky. 

 

I just did the clutch adjustment and the gap as measured at the lever was a bit tight at 3mm rather than 5mm.  The gap between the lock nut and the adjuster is spot on.  I forgot about the 1150 having a hydraulic clutch.  I'm pretty sure I was thinking about my old (departed) R100RT.

 

 

FYI, that gap is supposed to be 7 mm. The big gap is supposed to be 12 mm, not 10 mm. The spec changed after the first few years. You still see 5 and 10 in some manuals. but it's wrong.

[JamesW]

Thanks for that info Jim.  Good to know.

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, JamesW said:

Thanks for that info Jim.  Good to know.

Afternoon James

 

You can just leave it as is, that 12mm is just so you have plenty of threads left to make future adjustments. The important one is the  7mm of lever to housing gap but even that is subjective as 5mm still gives you enough slack to not get a tight cable during cable & clutch temperature changes during usage. I used to run 5mm on my 1100 bikes as that moves the friction zone out slightly vs lever position but also gives a bit more clutch plate release at full lever pull-in. The downside of 5mm is the need to keep a slightly closer eye on lever to housing gap.

 

As long a you never get a tight cable (ie no lever to housing gap)  hot or cold (no lever to housing slack)  & the lower (trans) lever doesn't bottom out on the cable housing then  you are good to go. 

[The Fabricator]

A solution that has worked for me on my old R100 was a pulley device.  It reduces clutch lever pull by 1/2 and doubles the friction zone.

http://benchmarkworks.com/articles/howto/clutch.html

 

On my R1150GS, I installed a bigger diameter clutch slave and obtained the same results

 

 

[JamesW]

Hi Tom,  The Easy Clutch looks interesting. Somewhere in the distant past I ran across a device like it and might have been when I took college physics in levers and fulcrums section.  Mounting the fixed bracket for the chain might not work out so well on my R1100RS.  Not sure if there would be enough clutch lever travel  Hmmmmm....  I like your method for supporting the trans during removal.  Actually I use the same method and just attach a piece of plywood to the top of the jack to steady things up a bit.

 

Thanks for the clarification D.R and today I ordered a new clutch cable.  Has to come from Germany.  On closer examination the cable pull is a little grabby just not as smooth as I thought.  Too bad there aren't any different FD gear ratios available like on the double sided swing arm airheads. My early 1100 is really geared tall making 5th not so usable until speed is 65+.

 

[Skywagon]

I had an easy clutch on an 1973 R90.  Worked great and made a ton of difference   That was a long time ago.  I saw todays price of$95.  I'm pretty sure I paid $30 for mine a couple of decades back....

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, JamesW said:

Thanks for the clarification D.R and today I ordered a new clutch cable.  Has to come from Germany.  On closer examination the cable pull is a little grabby just not as smooth as I thought.  Too bad there aren't any different FD gear ratios available like on the double sided swing arm airheads. My early 1100 is really geared tall making 5th not so usable until speed is 65+.

 

Morning James 

 

I have an old BMW service advisory that shows BMW made a final drive ratio change at some point in the early 1100rs,  (will have to find the advisory again to be sure as it is in paper form)  as I think they also changed some some of the transmission gear ratios. 

 

You should be able find your final drive ratio stamped on the final drive housing.

 

The  1100 R & 1100 GS used lower final drive gear ratios than the 1100RT but I'm not sure the difference between those & your outlier early 1100RS.  

 

I show the 1100RS  used a  34:11=3.09 (up to 09/93) then used  a 31:11=2.82 (from 09/93)

 

[dirtrider]

Morning James 

 

With what you are saying about your ride-off & high gearing concern you might want to think about some 

Lennie's Boxer Performance Sprockets. (Google--   Lennie's Boxer Performance Sprockets) 

 

Those change the camshaft timing to lower the torque peak  & make a notable difference in lower throttle opening vs gear selection. (I ran those on a couple of old 1100RT's  that I used heavily loaded with gear, to me they made a noticeable difference).  

From Lennie's Boxer Performance Sprockets --- 

 

"The main aim for the cam sprocket tuning was to improve 
midrange performance and torque delivery so that part throttle
 response was greatly improved for better throttle response, 
smoother running and the ability to run in a higher gear improving
 fuel consumption. They do this by moving the torque peak 
800 to 1000 rpm lower dependent on the model".

[taylor1]

+1 on the Lennie's sprockets. That was the only mod. I did to my 1150rt that I could definitely feel a difference. I do very little slab riding , so the top end I lost , was no big deal compared to the low end grunt I gained.

[Lowndes]

James,

 

In addition to what Dirtrider recommends above, I would add my experience with a '99 R1100RT and a '99 R1100S.

 

Both of these bikes engines were very "cold natured", that is, very difficult at low throttle, low speed, with stalling, low power, slower to rev, stumbling, etc.  It was slightly better after the engines had warmed up thoroughly but uphill starts and low RPM parking lot maneuvers were still a pain.  Not exactly the "grabby clutch" you describe, but kinda similar and it sure would make a grabby clutch condition worse for you.

 

I had read on this forum about this issue and it sounded like a very lean mixture (mandated by EPA regulations) that colud be corrected by several add-on devices that shift the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU and getting the ECU to add a little more fuel to the mix.  I did a lot of reading about it and added an AF-XIED to the R1100S.  https://sales.nightrider.com/AF-XIED-for-BMW-R1100_p_70.html  It's a tiny little box with wires that is added to the bike's wiring, almost a "plug and play" add-on.  The improvement was almost immediate and was dramatic.  It started much quicker, idled smoothly immediately, basically ran like it was supposed to run.  It was the best and the cheapest "improvement" to the bike.  I'm just a satisfied customer, no affiliation with AF-XIED whatsoever.

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

James,

 

In addition to what Dirtrider recommends above, I would add my experience with a '99 R1100RT and a '99 R1100S.

 

Both of these bikes engines were very "cold natured", that is, very difficult at low throttle, low speed, with stalling, low power, slower to rev, stumbling, etc.  It was slightly better after the engines had warmed up thoroughly but uphill starts and low RPM parking lot maneuvers were still a pain.  Not exactly the "grabby clutch" you describe, but kinda similar and it sure would make a grabby clutch condition worse for you.

 

I had read on this forum about this issue and it sounded like a very lean mixture (mandated by EPA regulations) that colud be corrected by several add-on devices that shift the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU and getting the ECU to add a little more fuel to the mix.  I did a lot of reading about it and added an AF-XIED to the R1100S.  https://sales.nightrider.com/AF-XIED-for-BMW-R1100_p_70.html  It's a tiny little box with wires that is added to the bike's wiring, almost a "plug and play" add-on.  The improvement was almost immediate and was dramatic.  It started much quicker, idled smoothly immediately, basically ran like it was supposed to run.  It was the best and the cheapest "improvement" to the bike.  I'm just a satisfied customer, no affiliation with AF-XIED whatsoever.

Morning Lowndes

 

James has an LC-2  on his (early)  1100RS, that is a more experienced-user version of the  AF-XIED, I believe he has it turned off at the moment as cutting the CCP wire on his early 1100RS (same as removing the CCP on later bikes)  seemed to give him rich enough fueling control without the over-richness in some fueling areas with the LC-2 . 

[JamesW]

Good morning D.R.,

You are right.  My outlier has the 34/11 final drive ratio.  So not much to be gained by going to the 2.82 in this case.

 

Interesting thought on the timing sprocket.  I'm going to hold of on any mods until after I see what difference a new clutch cable makes. I'll be surprised if I am able to tell any difference but I've been surprised before that's for sure.

 

As far as fueling goes I'm really liking the results I've got since cutting the code plug jumper as far as engine performance is concerned.  I did use the LC-2 to check AFR ratios in real time on a 30 mile ride.  Warmed up at idle the AFR is 12.4:1 and cruise runs 14.0:1  After cutting the jumper the O2 sensor is completely out of the picture and I've removed it.  Pretty obvious closed loop operation is also gone.  Motor reminds me of a well tuned carbureted airhead which I used to know.

 

J 

[JamesW]

Rocket Sprockets for $176 USD.  Interesting very interesting.  That is a significant difference in the torque curve.  I bet that could solve my problem.

 

 

J

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, JamesW said:

Rocket Sprockets for $176 USD.  Interesting very interesting.  That is a significant difference in the torque curve.  I bet that could solve my problem.

 

 

J

Afternoon James 

 

It might not completely solve your problems but  could go along way towards reducing them. 

 

The only got-ya with those sprockets is having to break your stock cam sprocket bolts loose, if not very careful & cautious you can end up breaking a cam chain tensioner. If you decide to try them let us know & we will discuss cam sprocket bolt removal.    

 

That 34:11 final drive gearing is pretty good as I believe the 1100GS was  33:11  (3.00).

[JamesW]

It looks like the first thing you would do after removing the sprocket cover is remove the cam tensioner which so far looks simple.  Then the hard part would seem to be removal of the bolt that holds the sprocket on the end of the cam shaft and then somehow slip the timing chain off of the sprocket and slip the sprocket out past the cam assembly with the valve cover removed for access.  All this and you best not allow anything including the timing chain to drop into the bottom end of the motor.  I'm thinking I don't trust my arthritic fingers to do this.  I called Craig Hansen whom I have the utmost respect for at Hansen's BMW in Medford, OR to see what he thought of this and he said while they have never done this he would highly recommend staying away from non OEM parts but he would do the work if I want him to.  I have to think about this.  I'm so afraid of dropping something down into the engine.  Could one slide the sprocket far enough out the access port and with a cable tie attach the timing chain to the sprocket then swap the OEM sprocket with the Rocket sprocket and bolt to the can shaft?

 

As a side note I was pleased to learn that Craig is going to rebuild Hansen's BMW at the same location after it was completely destroyed in the fires of September 2020.He has approval from BMW and the local planning department and is all set to begin construction.  If you are registered with Hansen's BMW you will receive e-mails during construction with pictures.  

[JamesW]

I dunno, been reading all I can find about Lennie's sprockets and it seems to me that to change the torque by 800-1K RPM with a 9 degree change in valve timing is kind of drastic and might effect top end cruising above 70 mph a little too much and I can't really see how this will make cruising at 60 mph in 5th easier. I just don't know.  I've studied the procedure to accomplish the install and it's really not that scary and I understand the steps involved so I feel I can do the mod. Easy to mark the timing chain with paint and line up the mark with the arrow on Lennie's sprocket with with the respective piston at TDC.  Also easy to secure the timing chain with a cable tie through the access port and valve cover seat then carefully slide the OEM sprocket off the end of the cam shaft and through the access port by just screwing a longer bolt in place of the original sprocket bolt and sliding the sprocket onto it with no chance of loosing the sprocket into the engine, my ingenious idea. lol..lol..  I think I can do this.  Wish I could test ride a bike that's been modified and find out for myself what to expect.  Going to think some more about it.  I kind of get the impression that this mod is not very often done and few people have even heard of it.

[taylor1]

This mod. was done mostly in the GS world . As mentioned , I did it on my 1150rt @ 10 years ago and have never looked back . As far as top end cruising , you may loose about 5 mph . I normally don't cruise much over 80 , and I cannot tell the difference . The only difference I could tell is getting there . It is pretty easy to do . Just be care full not to let the washer/ spacer fall into the case.. I came close and almost had a heart attack  LOL  Good luck in what ever decision you make !

[9Mary7]

My .02 FWIW....... I can see doing the cam timing change on an 1150 as the deep overdrive 6th gear will allow highway cruising at reasonable speeds with little impact.

That said, with only a 5spd box, the 1100 would definitely suffer on todays interstates at speed............ 

[dirtrider]

15 hours ago, JamesW said:

 I have to think about this.  I'm so afraid of dropping something down into the engine.  Could one slide the sprocket far enough out the access port and with a cable tie attach the timing chain to the sprocket then swap the OEM sprocket with the Rocket sprocket and bolt to the can shaft?

 

Afternoon James 

 

You can't slide the chain/sprocket out much past the cam sprocket center hole aligning with camshaft center hole (if you could then the chain would be too loose in operation) 

[JamesW]

Well, I slept on it and have decided not to do it.  I couldn't find any actual test results other than seat of the pants opinions and not many of them.   That is not to say I don't value you guy's opinions because I do.  I'm just not brave enough to trust myself not to foul up.  I like the power band of the R1100RS the only problem being the too tall first gear but once under way I have no real issues.  Maybe the new clutch cable will smooth things out a tiny bit.  Oh, I'll think some more but I'm pretty firm in my thoughts.  Craig Hansen is also a big influence on me and Craig has never heard of anyone changing out the sprockets for any reason.  Craig has been in business with  BMW exclusively since 1972 and I've known him since '76 and he is passionate about BMW.  Geez we even graduated from the same high school of course I preceded him by a few years.  more lol..lol..

 

You know this is one area where the FJR really shines because it will pull like a freight train from one end of the rev range to the other.  Now if only the thing didn't kill my back,  knees, and arms so much after 100 miles.  Thankfully mines a 5 speed and not the dreaded 6 speed with the disintegrating 2nd gear issue.  So much for Japanese engineering, imo.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, JamesW said:

Well, I slept on it and have decided not to do it.  I couldn't find any actual test results other than seat of the pants opinions and not many of them.   That is not to say I don't value you guy's opinions because I do.  I'm just not brave enough to trust myself not to foul up.  I like the power band of the R1100RS the only problem being the too tall first gear but once under way I have no real issues.  Maybe the new clutch cable will smooth things out a tiny bit.  Oh, I'll think some more but I'm pretty firm in my thoughts.  Craig Hansen is also a big influence on me and Craig has never heard of anyone changing out the sprockets for any reason.  Craig has been in business with  BMW exclusively since 1972 and I've known him since '76 and he is passionate about BMW.  Geez we even graduated from the same high school of course I preceded him by a few years.  more lol..lol..

 

You know this is one area where the FJR really shines because it will pull like a freight train from one end of the rev range to the other.  Now if only the thing didn't kill my back,  knees, and arms so much after 100 miles.  Thankfully mines a 5 speed and not the dreaded 6 speed with the disintegrating 2nd gear issue.  So much for Japanese engineering, imo.

Afternoon James

 

Yes it is something to think about.  I was happy with the sprocket's lower torque improvement on my 1100RT's. I never noticed much high speed power loss. Possibly a little flatter over 6500 RPM's but I could still get well above 125 mph (GPS). 

 

A number of 1100 GS riders used them to help the low end torque a little (that is why I originally suggested them). 

 

Just another option to trans gear changes or final drive ratio changes & easier than both to implement.  

[JamesW]

57 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon James

 

Yes it is something to think about.  I was happy with the sprocket's lower torque improvement on my 1100RT's. I never noticed much high speed power loss. Possibly a little flatter over 6500 RPM's but I could still get well above 125 mph (GPS). 

 

A number of 1100 GS riders used them to help the low end torque a little (that is why I originally suggested them). 

 

Just another option to trans gear changes or final drive ratio changes & easier than both to implement.  

 

Yeah, I got the impression the main interest has to do with the GS.  One question I have is I assume you only remove one cam chain tensioner at a time never two at a time?  One procedure I read indicated that the mechanic actually removed both to get enough slack in the timing chain.  How easy would it be to cause the chain to slip a link on the crank sprocket?

 

[dirtrider]

58 minutes ago, JamesW said:

 

Yeah, I got the impression the main interest has to do with the GS.  One question I have is I assume you only remove one cam chain tensioner at a time never two at a time?  One procedure I read indicated that the mechanic actually removed both to get enough slack in the timing chain.  How easy would it be to cause the chain to slip a link on the crank sprocket?

 

Afternoon James

 

Only one side at a time with that side piston at TDC (locked if possible). That way chain position doesn't matter as the cam sprocket can be positioned back to where it was even if the chain slips a link on the accessory shaft. You would really have to work at it to get the chain to slip inside the engine as it has almost 3/4 wrap on the accessory shaft sprocket.  

 

There is one chain for each side so loosening one side has no effect on the chain on the other side.

 

The main got-ya's are___   

 

Initially breaking the sprocket bolts loose, I use a 3' pipe with an old impact wrench shaft (1/2" drive)  welded to one end (or a 1/2 drive extension welded to one end). The reason for this is you want a slow SMOOTH bolt release so the cam sprocket doesn't jump as the bolt initially releases. If the sprocket jumps that allows the chain to jump & can break a cam chain guide. I NEVER try to use a ratchet with a pipe, or  use a loose/movable end breaker bar. Over the years I have seen a number of cam chain guides get broken on sprocket bolt removal but I haven't ever broken one using my SOLID pipe with good fitting 1/2" drive solid end.

 

The next is to replace the cam sprocket bolts  when installing new sprockets, I have heard the bolt  heads breaking off (in use)  on  some of those if  bolts are re-used (I always replace those after removal) 

 

Lastly, lining the cam sprocket up properly to the cam, it is easy to miss (& retain) the alignment at reassembly as the key isn't very pronounced.  

 

It's not a difficult job, in fact pretty straight forward, you just have to take great care & not get sloppy or impatient. 

[JamesW]

Thanks so much for that info D.R. and I just don't think I have the nerve to get into it.  Well....I can't help thinking about it.  I never would have thought loosening those bolts would be an issue at all.  Thanks again.

 

J

[JamesW]

Hi again D.R.

You know if you don't remove the cam chain tensioners and you were to lock the flywheel so nothing could move could you not then safely break the sprocket bolts (both) loose using a 1/2" drive with a breaker bar extension?  Not loosen all the way but just break the tension by carefully and slowly increasing applied force on the breaker bar.  I can't figure out why you can't safely do this without fashioning a wrench as you describe.  I was thinking about giving this a try before even ordering the sprockets and if I can't do it with reasonable force quit while I'm ahead.

 

J

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, JamesW said:

Hi again D.R.

You know if you don't remove the cam chain tensioners and you were to lock the flywheel so nothing could move could you not then safely break the sprocket bolts (both) loose using a 1/2" drive with a breaker bar extension?  Not loosen all the way but just break the tension by carefully and slowly increasing applied force on the breaker bar.  I can't figure out why you can't safely do this without fashioning a wrench as you describe.  I was thinking about giving this a try before even ordering the sprockets and if I can't do it with reasonable force quit while I'm ahead.

 

J

Evening James

 

You c-o-u-l-d leave the chain tensioners tight but that allows the cam chains to easily apply any jumping force to the guides. Personally I remove the tensioner on the side that I am working on just as a precaution.  The loose side of the chain kind of curves or deflects over the movable guide (that is how it keeps it tight).

 

If you loosen those sprocket bolts I highly recommend that you replace the bolts. I'm not sure why but there are a number of instances of the heads snapping off either at re-torque or at a later time  (to me personally not worth the risk). On that same note, if you replace the bolts then you need to be darn sure the sprocket to cam key is properly lined up. 

 

You could use a breaker bar but the tighter the long lever is to the right angle socket attachment the less likely to  get jumps when the bolt breaks loose. If your breaker bar is long enough & the pivot is tight enough, & the socket fits the bolt tight enough,  then most come loose smoothly.  Some come loose smooth & easily & others are tighter than you would think they should have been (those are potential jumpers). 

 

Personally I wouldn't try any pre loosening, might as well install the sprockets once broken loose as that is a once & done (one half the chance of issues) 

 

 

[JamesW]

Hi D.R.,

I think I'm going to take a pass on trying this.  Just replace the clutch cable and call it good and practice modulating the clutch and live with what is.  Maybe raise the idle speed a little to help prevent a stall.  I've had happier thoughts than risking breaking a bolt head off and they've been screwed in a very long (28 yrs) time.

 

Thanks for all your time and good info.

 

J

[JamesW]

My new clutch cable arrived today from Germany after only 3 weeks.  Clutch action is smoother at the lever and during a short ride before the next rain event the clutch feel is improved.  The old cable compared to the new one seems to have noticeably more what I would call stiction between the cable and the outer sheath so fifty bucks well spent.