R1100rt rough running after heavy rain

[Dimlount]

Hey people!

 

I encountered this yesterday. Its been raining roughly a whole week now the bike didnt seem to mind at all until yesterday night that is. Started her up and the bike was running wayyy rich. 

 

Applying throttle heard some backfires and the engine missing some ignitions. Took the spark plugs out,they were black , cleaned and reinstalled. It run better.

 

Took it for a test run. The bike had really ROUGH low power. Sputtering and backfiring until reaching 4000rpm which improved its operation but still sounded bad.

 

Got to my destination let it sit for 4 hours , started her up a little sputter,still run rich until i got her moving and she worked fine.

 

The hell ?? xD  maybe some plug cup or wire got moisture? I have some spare time today to take a look but i dont know where to start. Thanks in advance !

[Jim Moore]

What year is your bike? Poor running after rain is usually an indicator of an ignition time, AKA Hall Effect Sensor, AKA HES going bad. especially with an 1100.

[Dimlount]

Thanks for the quick response. Its a 98' model. I looked at the mirror cover and it was hell dry thats why i dismissed the HES. 

 

Also when these go bad isnt a runs or doesnt run situation?

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Dimlount said:

Hey people!

 

I encountered this yesterday. Its been raining roughly a whole week now the bike didnt seem to mind at all until yesterday night that is. Started her up and the bike was running wayyy rich. 

 

Applying throttle heard some backfires and the engine missing some ignitions. Took the spark plugs out,they were black , cleaned and reinstalled. It run better.

 

Took it for a test run. The bike had really ROUGH low power. Sputtering and backfiring until reaching 4000rpm which improved its operation but still sounded bad.

 

Got to my destination let it sit for 4 hours , started her up a little sputter,still run rich until i got her moving and she worked fine.

 

The hell ?? xD  maybe some plug cup or wire got moisture? I have some spare time today to take a look but i dont know where to start. Thanks in advance !

Morning   Dimlount

 

As Jim mentioned a possible HES issue is always possible.

 

If you have been riding on wet roads (doesn't have to be in the rain, just riding for a distance on wet roads) & your motorcycle has had the emission Evap canister removed without cutting the tank vent hose exit end to a 45° angle then there is always the possibility than you now have (or had)  water sucked into the fuel tank. That will make them run  real ratty especially at lower RPM's.  

 

If the thing can stay running then eventually most of the water will come with fuel usagesos they slowly start running better.

 

If your evap can has been removed then cut the tank vent hose that exits behind the riders R/H foot peg to have a 45° exit end. 

[Dimlount]

Thanks for the response i will do that. I also contacted the bmw dealer here told me to not replace anything since it runs fine.

 

Probably moisture build up (humidity is crazy where i live)

 He advised me to buy a motorcycle cover and see. Said probably it will be just fine.

 

[Michaelr11]

If the HES hasn’t been repaired or replaced yet, then you must fix that.  It’s really simple. EVERY 1100R/RT/RS/GS left the factory with a hall sensor wiring harness that was built with the wrong wiring. The wiring dries out, then the insulation cracks and falls away from the copper. Every one of them. You can replace the whole part, or just replace the wiring with high temperature wiring. There’s a guy in the BMW community that does that a really reasonable price and an excellent job..  If you get enough moisture in the harness, you will be walking or waiting for a tow.

[Scott9999]

+1 on Michael's comment.

 

As soon as I bought my 2003 R1100RT-P, with 48K miles on the clock, and maybe 3 years old, I read about HES issues some folks were having, and pulled mine apart.  It was JUST like Michael described, the harness was disintegrating.  I rebuilt it following directions by members on this site.  Advise you consider putting that on your long term "to do" list as well.   

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Dimlount said:

Thanks for the response i will do that. I also contacted the bmw dealer here told me to not replace anything since it runs fine.

 

Probably moisture build up (humidity is crazy where i live)

 He advised me to buy a motorcycle cover and see. Said probably it will be just fine.

 

Evening Dimlount

 

Do you remember what the tachometer was doing when it was running bad? That is usually a tell-tale on an HES acting up. 

 

If the tac was rock steady then that usually points to something other then the HES.   If the tac was jumping all over then do suspect the HES wiring.

[Dimlount]

Thanks for all your answer guys! Helpful as always.

 

If i remember correctly the tach didnt have any jumps etc. The bike would sit and idle with an occasional small stutter that dropped its rpm. Then when throttling it it would be work like a 2 stroke that hasnt run in a while "jumpin" etc. Then after some seconds it would seem to clear and work better at higher rpm, still sounding not working properly.

 

I found it odd after letting it sit in the rain for 4 hours after the symptoms, the bike started after 10 seconds stalled started her again (started rich) then when on the move worked fine.

 

Today its working pristine thats why i suspected moisture build up over the days on the spark wires/plug.

 

[Joe Coastie]

Check your air filter, it may have gotten soggy in the rain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lowndes]

Dimlout,

 

If you suspect moisture in the gas tank, add some HEET to the tank.  IF water in the fuel is the problem, this will most likely improve or fix it.  The alcohol will disolve in the water and allow the mix to disolve into the gasoline and get burned in the engine.  Also, if water is not your problem HEET won't hurt it and might help clean the injectors.

 

A week ago a friend and I stopped for gas in a small south Georgia town.  He gassed up first, then I did, both from the same premium pump.  Before we could leave the station his bike was not running right and had warning lights.  It was running but just barely.  The next little town we came to had a NAPA store and he bought a bottle (yellow) and put the whole bottle in his tank.  Almost immediately his engine was running better and before we got back it was running normally with no warning lights.  It might have been just pure coincidence, but that's what happened.

 

HEET is the brand name and is sold at any auto parts store, Walmart, etc, specifically for this application.  There are two different versions, the yellow bottle is methanol alcohol and the red is isopropyl alcohol.  What is the difference you ask??  About 20¢ per bottle.  Read all about it here:

 

   

[wbw6cos]

pssssst - I think he bought the red bottle of Iso-Heet.  Just sayin'

[Jim Moore]

On 10/17/2021 at 4:01 AM, Dimlount said:

Thanks for all your answer guys! Helpful as always.

 

If i remember correctly the tach didnt have any jumps etc. The bike would sit and idle with an occasional small stutter that dropped its rpm. Then when throttling it it would be work like a 2 stroke that hasnt run in a while "jumpin" etc. Then after some seconds it would seem to clear and work better at higher rpm, still sounding not working properly.

 

I found it odd after letting it sit in the rain for 4 hours after the symptoms, the bike started after 10 seconds stalled started her again (started rich) then when on the move worked fine.

 

Today its working pristine thats why i suspected moisture build up over the days on the spark wires/plug.

 

I hope it's fixed, but you still need to replace the HES if it hasn't been replaced yet. Not to be overly dramatic, but it's a ticking time bomb. It's gonna fail, probably at a most inopportune time. 

[Dimlount]

You guys are wonderful, appreciate all the tips :)

 

@Jim Moore I dont have the previous owners bike history so i need to check on those wires i guess ?? If i remove the engine mirror cover can i take a peek without removing the pulley ?

[John Ranalletta]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:20 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning   Dimlount

 

As Jim mentioned a possible HES issue is always possible.

 

If you have been riding on wet roads (doesn't have to be in the rain, just riding for a distance on wet roads) & your motorcycle has had the emission Evap canister removed without cutting the tank vent hose exit end to a 45° angle then there is always the possibility than you now have (or had)  water sucked into the fuel tank. That will make them run  real ratty especially at lower RPM's.  

 

If the thing can stay running then eventually most of the water will come with fuel usagesos they slowly start running better.

 

If your evap can has been removed then cut the tank vent hose that exits behind the riders R/H foot peg to have a 45° exit end. 

 

Sold a '97 RT to a Canadian long ago.  He returned to western CA via Colorado where he encountered a soaking rain.  He had to replace the HES.

[Jim Moore]

2 hours ago, Dimlount said:

You guys are wonderful, appreciate all the tips :)

 

@Jim Moore I dont have the previous owners bike history so i need to check on those wires i guess ?? If i remove the engine mirror cover can i take a peek without removing the pulley ?

Unfortunately no. You would have to take the pulley off, remove the HES, then cut the sheathing open to examine the wires. I've heard they can be rewired by a home mechanic, but I'm not an electrical guy so I've just sent them out. There is a guy named gsaddict on the Advrider board who rebuilds them. He might be here too.

[Scott9999]

(Oops.  Sorry to Jim for "reporting" him with my last post, i.e. I punched the wrong button, hit "report" instead of reply.  MODs - ignore my "report"!)

 

Anyhow, what I wrote was that I rewired mine, it wasn't difficult at all, I'm not an electrician or an electrical expert, and that the toughest part of the process was finding aviation grade wire to accomplish the task.  There must be a dozen write-up's on the procedure somewhere on this forum's history archive.

 

Additionally, I did mine back about 2006.  Today's online shopping options should make it less difficult to find the wire.  

[wbw6cos]

2 minutes ago, Scott9999 said:

(Oops.  Sorry to Jim for "reporting" him with my last post, i.e. I punched the wrong button, hit "report" instead of reply.  MODs - ignore my "report"!)

 

He is a 20+ year board member.  One would think he would get a pass for being reported.   

[eddd]

The best cable I've used can be purchased by the foot from McMaster-Carr. Enter 8219K56 in the search box. The cable will be high temperature, 22 gauge, 4 wires with a shield. You could get by with 2 feet, but 3 feet will allow you to add the extra length previously mentioned. The longer cable also allows you to make a few practice cuts of the outer cable sheath and stripping the individual wires.

[Scott9999]

Yeah

2 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

 

He is a 20+ year board member.  One would think he would get a pass for being reported.   

Yeah, when I step in it, I don't mess around.  

 

Actually, I blame the "new" site format.  It's great, but there should be a "Reply" button after each post.  That's kind of the norm on most sites.  I almost did it again, i.e. hit the "report" button next to the post, expecting it to be a "reply" button.  Lol, I just gotta slow down as I'm clicking and typing.

[Dimlount]

Really appreciate everything you guys suggest! I guess it will be up on the list on replacing/checking the HES. I just assumed since the bike was running until 2018 and has 117k km the previous owner has dealed with it so i just disregarded it.

 

Thanks again guys. Also does spark wires/plugs cause same symptoms?

[Michaelr11]

3 hours ago, Dimlount said:

I guess it will be up on the list on replacing/checking the HES. I just assumed since the bike was running until 2018 and has 117k km the previous owner has dealed with it so i just disregarded it.

 

These pages, and other forums are filled with posts about failed HES wiring.  Every one of the affected bikes will have the issue.  My bike showed no symptoms of a hall sensor problem, yet the wires were exposed underneath the sheath.  

[Jim Moore]

5 hours ago, Dimlount said:

 

 

Thanks again guys. Also does spark wires/plugs cause same symptoms?

I've always thought of spark plug wires as a 100,000 mile consumable. The driveshaft too, btw.

[Dave P]

Yep, my HES failed, in the rain, on the NY Thruway. On my way to the 2019 MOA National rally. Tacho went bonkers, then bike was dead. Rewired by GS Addict and we're good to go. Sounds like the 1100s Achilles heel! Insulation was cooked. Yeah, rewire that sucker this winter. Dave

[eddd]

6 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

I've always thought of spark plug wires as a 100,000 mile consumable. The driveshaft too, btw.

 

BMW should have made it clear from the beginning that driveshafts would need replacement.  I'd have picked 60,000 as a good time to replace it.

[Lowndes]

Dimlout - here are the pics of the HES rewire on my '99 R1100RT, before and after GSAddict (Reto Camenisch; arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca) did the rewire, complete with a new connector:

 

  

 

 

The 5 small wires are inside a larger soft sheath.  The wires are only exposed on the end at the connector.  The connector is inside a once soft plastic "bell" shaped cover that was hard as a bowling ball in 2017 when all this happened.  The connector/cover is under the fuel tank and a pain to get to. I had to cut the off the cover to disconnect it.  If you have a white sheath or the wires at the connector are in perfect condition then it has been replaced already.

 

If you or a PO hasen't yet, you might want to replace the plastic fuel line disconnect with brass (the plastic gets brittle with age, will break and dump fuel on you and the engine.  https://www.beemerboneyard.com/cpcqkdiscon.html  This would be the perfect time to take care of that if it hasn't been done already.

 

BEFORE you remove the HES backing plate from the engine, scribe a line (below) from the plate to the engine as an index mark so you can replace it in the same position/orientation after the rewire.

 

 

All my pics are here:  https://goo.gl/photos/xriJRtXqd1mHDmZ78

 

Hope this helps!!

 

 

[Dimlount]

Helpful as always and always eager to take the extra mile on helping each other :) i feel like a part of a family! Thanks guys i really really appreciate the effort  :)

[Dimlount]

Small update you people since i forgot to cover the bike after a rain.

 

Same thing happened but its persists for 2 days so far(misfiring, running rich , rough until 4krpm and sometimes has some power drops at higher speeds.idles good with a sudden drop here and there). Pulled plugs,the right one was proper then left was shooty black , put new ones.

 

As a rule these days it runs better when engine is cold, when hot its a misery.

 

Suspecting a bad ignition coil since left side spark is hella weak ,( has to touch ground to produce a very weak spark, right side spark jumps from distance)

 

Tried the right cable on the left plug in the ignition coil still weak spark( so spark plug wires are good) 

 

 

*havent done anything on the bike since then since we had a health urgency on the shop and free time for working on our bikes is elusive* 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Dimlount

[dirtrider]

15 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

Small update you people since i forgot to cover the bike after a rain.

 

Same thing happened but its persists for 2 days so far(misfiring, running rich , rough until 4krpm and sometimes has some power drops at higher speeds.idles good with a sudden drop here and there). Pulled plugs,the right one was proper then left was shooty black , put new ones.

 

As a rule these days it runs better when engine is cold, when hot its a misery.

 

Suspecting a bad ignition coil since left side spark is hella weak ,( has to touch ground to produce a very weak spark, right side spark jumps from distance)

 

Tried the right cable on the left plug in the ignition coil still weak spark( so spark plug wires are good) 

 

 

*havent done anything on the bike since then since we had a health urgency on the shop and free time for working on our bikes is elusive* 

Afternoon  Dimlount

 

As a rule these days it runs better when engine is cold, when hot its a misery.-- This might be pointing to a bad o2 sensor or lean running condition. Will need more diagnosis to try to pin it down.

 

Suspecting a bad ignition coil since left side spark is hella weak ,( has to touch ground to produce a very weak spark, right side spark jumps from distance)-- On your 1100 Ma 2.2 system the same coil produces the spark for both sides. The spark path is a continuous loop so to PROPERLY test for a good spark on one side the other side plug wire either needs to hooked to a grounded  spark plug or the plug wire grounded (if the off-side is left just hanging that will kill the spark path for the side you are testing)

 

Tried the right cable on the left plug in the ignition coil still weak spark( so spark plug wires are good) -- see above.

 

On the BMW 1100/1150 boxer bikes the left side spark plug is usually darker than the right unless the bike is ridden hard for about 15-20 miles then the spark plugs are check right away.  When motorcycle is placed on side stand the oil at the left side cylinder can migrate into the combustion chamber, on the right side the oil runs away from the cylinder with bike on the side stand. 

 

Have you tried operating that motorcycle with the CCP removed from the fuse box? That will disable the o2 sensor's input. 

 

 

 

[Dimlount]

Good morning Dirtrider,

 

Both spark tests for the cylinders were done with both plugged and hanging spark plugs. Still the left side port on the ignition coil gave me pretty weak spark.

 

Checked for the ccp, previous owner has removed it. About the sidestand after reading on these forums for a while i never use it, only center stand.

 

Fuel consumption these days is off the charts, i am down 10 liters in 20km, engine misfires(poppin in the exhaust) when running rough.

 

 

[Jim Moore]

Are your throttle cables seated in their cups on the injectors?

[Dimlount]

Yeah cables are fine , also had a cylinder balance 3 months ago. I am searching for a ignition coil to test right now, that left spark is so so weak

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

Yeah cables are fine , also had a cylinder balance 3 months ago. I am searching for a ignition coil to test right now, that left spark is so so weak

Morning Dimlount

 

Have you verified the L/H spark plug wire is FULLY plugged into it's coil tower?

 

You don't have a RT-P (police bike) do you?  Those have coils that are prone to spark shorting inside the RFI shielding at the coil.

 

If you have an ohmmeter measure the resistance between one side spark plug wire (spark plug attaching metal terminal) all the way through to other side  (spark plug attaching metal terminal).   

[Dimlount]

Yeah the wire was fully plugged( double click and goes all the way) havent removed the coil to inspect the plug sockets on it.

 

It is the anniversary model , pretty sure no police models made it to greece.

 

I will try to measure it and also measure the coils inside, what ohms do i expect to find?

 

Seems to be the left plug on the coil since switching the wires, had the same impact on the wire plugged to the left.

[dirtrider]

43 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

Yeah the wire was fully plugged( double click and goes all the way) havent removed the coil to inspect the plug sockets on it.

 

It is the anniversary model , pretty sure no police models made it to greece.

 

I will try to measure it and also measure the coils inside, what ohms do i expect to find?

 

Seems to be the left plug on the coil since switching the wires, had the same impact on the wire plugged to the left.

Morning  Dimlount

 

Coil (winding) temp has some effect on coil resistance so resistance can vary a bit. 

 

The resistance in the old (gray) coil is usually pretty close to 13K ohms (+/-)  for the secondary and 0.5 for the primary. 

The (later) black coils  were around  7K (+/-) for the secondary and  about 1 ohm (or just under) for the primary. 

 

Plug wires are kind of iffy but most  wires are in the  5 - 5.5K range.

A good quick check of  plug wires resistance all the way through the coil's secondary is 17-25K wire to wire through the coil (appx), depends on coil. 

 

A coil can test OK on resistance but still be bad as the resistance can be good but the coil can arc internally, or arc through a cracked case.  

 

Just keep in mind when testing for spark that one side sparks positive electrode & the other side sparks negative electrode (lost spark system) so the spark can look different depending on what it is sparking to or from. 

 

With choke on, will engine remain running on the bad side  with good side shorted to ground? How about the reverse? 

[Dimlount]

If you mean running on one cylinder it runs on the good side , doesnt idle on bad side for long. With both on i have sudden rpm drops on idle, and on accelaration i have misfires until around 4-5k rpm. Consumption is crazy , i guess cause of the good cylinder trying to hold it together. (10ltr for 20km) . Smoke when cold is cloudy as hell, cause of the unburnt fuel i guess

 

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

If you mean running on one cylinder it runs on the good side , doesnt idle on bad side for long. With both on i have sudden rpm drops on idle, and on accelaration i have misfires until around 4-5k rpm. Consumption is crazy , i guess cause of the good cylinder trying to hold it together. (10ltr for 20km) . Smoke when cold is cloudy as hell, cause of the unburnt fuel i guess

 

Morning  Dimlount

 

If you can get enough plug wire slack try swapping the plug wires at the coil towers to see if the problem stays on the same side or moves to the other side. This will tell you if the coil is causing the problem or you need to chase another area.  

[Dimlount]

Already did the swap and i confirmed that the left socket on the ignition coil produces the bad spark ( sorry my english is mediocre ) 

[dirtrider]

56 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

Already did the swap and i confirmed that the left socket on the ignition coil produces the bad spark ( sorry my english is mediocre ) 

Morning  Dimlount

 

Look your coil over real closely, (especially if a gray coil), look for cracking in the winding area of the plastic case.

[Dimlount]

No visible cracking or anything. It has the black one on. I found a used one from an r1100rs , do they wear the same one? 

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, Dimlount said:

No visible cracking or anything. It has the black one on. I found a used one from an r1100rs , do they wear the same one? 

Morning  Dimlount

 

They pretty well CAN use the same coil but you really don't want the older metal one or the gray one. 

 

The coil that is desired is a black coil with these numbers on it.  

                                                                                                     1 341 978

                                                                                                     0 040 100 224

[Dimlount]

Yap thats the one he has. Will report after replacing, really appreciate all the help  :)

[Dimlount]

Coil replaced, bike works like a charm! (Spark was so strong it struck my hand at the key)

 

I guess the coil was degrating all this time and now got really screwed. The engine works beautifully! Never heard her like that. Revs up amazing, idle improved and overall feels sharper and sounds like working in proper order!

 

Check your coils , mine failed at 118k km no visible cracks or nothing  :)

 

Ps. Thanks for all your help , helpful as always !