Brake Failure light

[cptngym]

After sitting for 3 months I was finally able to get out on my 2009RT. Brake failure light did it's normal thing, but stayed on afterwards.

Speedo and brake lights work. Both bulbs. While riding I thought I had brakes using either the hand or the foot brake. Now after checking battery voltage, and unhooking ans rehooking up the battery too...the failure light comes on (doesn't blink} and stays solid. I did put it on the center stand ran the rear wheel used front brake handle and it didn't stop the rear wheel. I have sufficient fluid in front MC but haven't checked rear. It was getting too hot, I live 18 miles North of Key Largo. 

I'll check the fluid level in that tomorrow, any other ideas? Bike has 73,xxx miles. Never had an issue in the past with the brakes.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, cptngym said:

After sitting for 3 months I was finally able to get out on my 2009RT. Brake failure light did it's normal thing, but stayed on afterwards.

Speedo and brake lights work. Both bulbs. While riding I thought I had brakes using either the hand or the foot brake. Now after checking battery voltage, and unhooking ans rehooking up the battery too...the failure light comes on (doesn't blink} and stays solid. I did put it on the center stand ran the rear wheel used front brake handle and it didn't stop the rear wheel. I have sufficient fluid in front MC but haven't checked rear. It was getting too hot, I live 18 miles North of Key Largo. 

I'll check the fluid level in that tomorrow, any other ideas? Bike has 73,xxx miles. Never had an issue in the past with the brakes.

Afternoon cptngym

 

As a rule with JUST a rear bulb out all you get is a bulb-out warning light not a brake failure light.

 

With your rear servo appearing to not work that "sort of" points to stuck servo motor brushes inside your ABS module. (not uncommon). 

 

You really need to get a GS-911 (or dealer computer) on that bike to se what the brake fault codes are. 

 

A very slight possibility of low rear fluid level but that is kind of a long-shot. 

 

Try your key-on rear wheel spin test again (front brake lever apply)  but this time leave it in neutral & just spin the rear wheel with your foot. 

[cptngym]

I try that in the morning after I check the fluid. Thanks!

[cptngym]

OK, the fluid in the rear MC was very low. Added fluid, and cracked rear bleeder. Fluid was right there and I pushed the pedal completely down and closed the bleeder screw. Still cannot stop the rear wheel via the front brake while moving the wheel with my foot. I can stop the rear wheel with rear brake. I do hear something running when I first turn on the key. Is there a sequence I need to follow to re-bleed the system? I'll road test it later on. Gotta mow before it heats up.  

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, cptngym said:

OK, the fluid in the rear MC was very low. Added fluid, and cracked rear bleeder. Fluid was right there and I pushed the pedal completely down and closed the bleeder screw. Still cannot stop the rear wheel via the front brake while moving the wheel with my foot. I can stop the rear wheel with rear brake. I do hear something running when I first turn on the key. Is there a sequence I need to follow to re-bleed the system? I'll road test it later on. Gotta mow before it heats up.  

Morning cptngym

 

Was the rear reservoir just low or was it out of fluid??????

 

If your rear pedal will stop the rear wheel with a decent (normal)  feeling brake pedal (or a better test is will it stop the motorcycle when moving at speed) then your rear brake circuit is not air bound.

 

Both the rear master cylinder & the rear linked brake control work from the same fluid.

 

Even if a little air in the rear brake system it should still be able to lock the rear brake sitting still & using the front lever with key-on & spinning the rear wheel with your foot.

[cptngym]

Out of fluid, or so low it appeared out. It didn't drop much at all when I cracked the bleeder and cycle the pedal once. I suspect there was fluid in the line.

[dirtrider]

22 minutes ago, cptngym said:

Out of fluid, or so low it appeared out. It didn't dro much at all when I cracked the bleeder and cycle the pedal once. I suspect there was fluid in the line.

Morning cptngym

 

OK, in that case I would bleed the rear pushing enough fluid through it to be sure you get any latent air out, THEN, once bled using the rear brake pedal try the key-on, spin the rear wheel with your foot, front brake lever. If THAT locks the rear wheel OK then do another re-bleed using the rear pedal.  The rear wheel spin/front lever lock-up will dislodge any remaining air in the rear servo area so it should then bleed out using the rear pedal.   

 

BUT!, even with some air in the rear circuit you should still have been able to get rear brake lock-up spinning rear wheel  with your foot & key-on front lever apply. 

 

My next question is: WHERE did the rear brake fluid go? Do you have a seep back there somewhere? Worn rear brake pads will lower the level a little but shouldn't run the rear reservoir to empty. 

 

You REALLY need to get a code reader on that motorcycle to get the brake fault codes (this way you will KNOW what your are fighting with)

[cptngym]

Okay, I will follow that method.  Right now I can only stop the rear with rear pedal. As far as the fluid loss, not sure just yet. More to come....I am hoping this will sort it self out and I have averted any large $$ repairs!

I am nearly 70, and ready to possibly purchase my last Motorcycle. Still trying to decide what that will be. Not riding on long trips any longer.

Thanks again for your continued help.

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, cptngym said:

Okay, I will follow that method.  Right now I can only stop the rear with rear pedal. As far as the fluid loss, not sure just yet. More to come....I am hoping this will sort it self out and I have averted any large $$ repairs!

I am nearly 70, and ready to possibly purchase my last Motorcycle. Still trying to decide what that will be. Not riding on long trips any longer.

Thanks again for your continued help.

Morning cptngym

 

Where do you live, possibly someone on this board can put a GS-911 on that bike for you & get you the brake fault codes.  

[cptngym]

Way South in Miami-Dade county Florida. 18 miles North of Key Largo Florida. 9 miles from Everglades N.P. 

 

[cptngym]

Okay, bled 4 rear MC worth of fluid out of the rear brake. With key on I have tried multiple times to cycle the front brake and stop the rear wheel. No luck. Rear pedal stops the rear just fine. Short slow speed road test I have brakes with either front hand brake or rear pedal. Am I out of luck without the GS-911 to diagnose this issue? Or should I just ride it to the local dealer like it is and trade it. It's an 2009 with 73,XXX miles. Not worth a tremendous amount in trade or outright sale. Still runs and rides good. Never had the shock changed or fork seals done either. And in my current situation, I don't have a garage to work on this any longer.....

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, cptngym said:

Okay, bled 4 rear MC worth of fluid out of the rear brake. With key on I have tried multiple times to cycle the front brake and stop the rear wheel. No luck. Rear pedal stops the rear just fine. Short slow speed road test I have brakes with either front hand brake or rear pedal. Am I out of luck without the GS-911 to diagnose this issue? Or should I just ride it to the local dealer like it is and trade it. It's an 2009 with 73,XXX miles. Not worth a tremendous amount in trade or outright sale. Still runs and rides good. Never had the shock changed or fork seals done either. And in my current situation, I don't have a garage to work on this any longer.....

Afternoon  cptngym

 

Without a failure code or codes it is just guessing but your problem has a lot of the earmarks of a stuck servo motor brush. 

 

I don't know what your options are, you definitely won't get much for it in a trade in, possibly someone is willing to buy it as is (still won't get a lot for it). 

 

Dealer repair will probably be very expensive.

 

You can ride it like it is as you have a front & rear brake if using lever & rear pedal (but won't have ABS).

 

Even masking the dash brake light is difficult as it is an LED not a removable bulb & the control is through the CanBus.   

 

You can try calling Module Master as they can repair a stuck motor brush with good reliability but you would have to remove the ABS module & send it to them. 

 

But having the brake failure code or codes would probably allow you to make a more  informed decision.  

 

You can TRY getting assess to the ABS  module then using a wooden dowel or cut off broom handle & a hammer to rap all around on the ABS module, if a stuck brush that sometimes will free it (at least for a while but the problem usually returns again). But if that works then you will be pretty sure what the problem is. 

 

 

[cptngym]

Ordered the GS-911. It will be here Friday. More to come. Sort this out with the codes. I guess I could have taken to the dealer in Miami....but I suspect it would be a $2K fix.

[cptngym]

Okay, ordered and received GS-911. Ran codes twice. First time it showed in "black" a few codes and the 24048 and 24049 codes. Cleared all codes. Did the key on moving the rear wheel and stopping it with the front brake lever. And it appears to do that. I do see that I need to change the rear pads and probably the front too. Rode the bike this morning and the brake failure light is still solid not blinking. After I ran the code check the first time. When I turned on the key again it was blinking like it used to do. So after riding it and the light is now solid, I reran the code check. 24048 and 24049 are now in RED and cannot be deleted. This is after reading other posts on this topic is what I expected to find.

So I think my next move is to take off the "Tupperware" and expose the ABS unit and do some additional test and maybe tap on the motor to see if I can jar the brushes back into place. If not I guess it will be time to remove the unit and send it to Module Masters....

[dirtrider]

23 minutes ago, cptngym said:

Okay, ordered and received GS-911. Ran codes twice. First time it showed in "black" a few codes and the 24048 and 24049 codes. Cleared all codes. Did the key on moving the rear wheel and stopping it with the front brake lever. And it appears to do that. I do see that I need to change the rear pads and probably the front too. Rode the bike this morning and the brake failure light is still solid not blinking. After I ran the code check the first time. When I turned on the key again it was blinking like it used to do. So after riding it and the light is now solid, I reran the code check. 24048 and 24049 are now in RED and cannot be deleted. This is after reading other posts on this topic is what I expected to find.

So I think my next move is to take off the "Tupperware" and expose the ABS unit and do some additional test and maybe tap on the motor to see if I can jar the brushes back into place. If not I guess it will be time to remove the unit and send it to Module Masters....

Afternoon cptngym

 

Codes  24048 and 24049 are usually what I see with a failed servo motor (usually failed due to stuck brushes). 

 

 

[cptngym]

Thanks! Now to fix it....

[cptngym]

Dirtrider, what if there is one the easiest way to access and "tap" on the servo motor on the ABS unit?

[dirtrider]

Just now, cptngym said:

Dirtrider, what if there is one the easiest way to access and "tap" on the servo motor on the ABS unit?

Afternoon cptngym

 

You will probably have to remove the L/H side plastic.

 

I usually use about an 18" (or so) cut-off broom handle & hammer then work that in to rap on it.

 

Even if you get it working the problem will usually return BUT if you can get it working by rapping that confirms stuck brushes then you can go from there.

[cptngym]

Stupid question, Left side plastic as I sit on it?

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, cptngym said:

Stupid question, Left side plastic as I sit on it?

Evening cptngym

 

Yes, left while sitting on seat (shifter side).

 

Before removing plastic you might try cheating if you can find a bumpy road. The roads that works best are hard dirt or gravel road that have closely spaced chatter bumps (little ripples spaced close together) that shake the entire motorcycle when riding over them.

 

If you can find a rough road try lightly braking a few times with the front brake lever while the motorcycle is shaking or buzzing along.  

[cptngym]

OK, finally got time to work on this issue yesterday. Did just like DR suggested. Used a long 1/2 drive extension to tap/crack the motor. Turned key on. Warning light was now blinking instead of steady. Ran GS-911 cleared codes and took it for a really short ride.  Used brakes a few times. Last time as I was in front of the house, light came back on and stayed on. Today I did the same procedure, with the exception of running the front and rear abs. It came back on during the front one. Tapped it again, back off now. Ran rear procedure and now it seems to have stayed off. I have not yet re-bled the brakes. but it's all buttoned back up and codes are clear....again. No idea if this fix is going to hold and for how long. Time will tell, guess I need to make a decision about this bike one way or another. I am working on this in a carport, so not an ideal place to be pulling the abs unit.

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, cptngym said:

OK, finally got time to work on this issue yesterday. Did just like DR suggested. Used a long 1/2 drive extension to tap/crack the motor. Turned key on. Warning light was now blinking instead of steady. Ran GS-911 cleared codes and took it for a really short ride.  Used brakes a few times. Last time as I was in front of the house, light came back on and stayed on. Today I did the same procedure, with the exception of running the front and rear abs. It came back on during the front one. Tapped it again, back off now. Ran rear procedure and now it seems to have stayed off. I have not yet re-bled the brakes. but it's all buttoned back up and codes are clear....again. No idea if this fix is going to hold and for how long. Time will tell, guess I need to make a decision about this bike one way or another. I am working on this in a carport, so not an ideal place to be pulling the abs unit.

Morning  cptngym

 

OK, then at least you have positively identified your problem (that's progress).

 

You might talk to your BMW dealer, or talk to a local independent dealer, as some are now progressive enough to remove your existing ABS module & send it out to ModuleMaster for repair, then reinstall & bleed  after repair.   

[basilr]

I wonder if the ABS doesn't recognize a need to apply braking power to the rear wheel when both are off the ground?

[cptngym]

I am thinking at my age (nearly 70) I'm getting tired of screwing around with these known BMW issues. Might be a new wing in my future.... Don't get me wrong, I have put 60,000 miles on this bike. Rode it all over. But, I'm just tired of messing with it and the high maintenance of BMW's in general. For example, the K1600B and Gold Wing are similar. Wing has at least half the maintenance of the Beemer....Old retired guys need to save $$ where we can.

 

 

[dirtrider]

42 minutes ago, basilr said:

I wonder if the ABS doesn't recognize a need to apply braking power to the rear wheel when both are off the ground?

Afternoon basilr

 

How are both wheels off the ground? 

 

The ABS (actually the braking module)  doesn't have any need to apply rear braking unless the rear wheel is spinning so it doesn't matter if the rear wheel is off the ground.  There is no feed-back sensor to tell the brake module that "a" wheel or "both wheels" are off the ground.

 

The rear brake apply from the rear brake pedal is all manual (no servo) unless in an ABS event.

 

Rear wheel brake apply from the front lever is all through the servo pump (even in an ABS event)  & that needs to see rear wheel movement to kick in. (doesn't matter if the rear wheel is on the ground spinning, or in the air  spinning with your foot or hand,  as long as it is moving (spinning).  

 

With the brake failure codes furnished & with rapping on the ABS module getting it working  that points DIRECTLY  to a stuck ABS motor brush. 

 

 

[cptngym]

So finally had a day to ride the RT. Didn't make it past the first brake application before the Brake Failure light came on and stayed on. Bike rides fine. Still has brakes just "no anti-lock" brake I guess. Brakes fine, had to use them not to the point of locking them up when a dump truck tried to run over me in Key Largo.

 

So now I'm at a cross roads....do I attempt this project in the car port. I live South of Miami, so no threat of getting cold anytime soon. Biggest question is removal of the fuel tank. I am assuming it needs to come off to access the ABS module. How do I drain it etc?

 

Or do I put it on eBay as is, take what I can get and move on?

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, cptngym said:

So finally had a day to ride the RT. Didn't make it past the first brake application before the Brake Failure light came on and stayed on. Bike rides fine. Still has brakes just "no anti-lock" brake I guess. Brakes fine, had to use them not to the point of locking them up when a dump truck tried to run over me in Key Largo.

 

So now I'm at a cross roads....do I attempt this project in the car port. I live South of Miami, so no threat of getting cold anytime soon. Biggest question is removal of the fuel tank. I am assuming it needs to come off to access the ABS module. How do I drain it etc?

 

Or do I put it on eBay as is, take what I can get and move on?

Afternoon  cptngym

 

With the servo pump not working you do lose ABS but you also lose rear braking from the front brake lever. You will always have to use rear brake pedal to have a functional rear brake.  

 

I usually just run the fuel in the tank down a ways then remove it with the remaining fuel in it, it won't leak or cause an issue BUT the more fuel that you remove the lighter the tank will be. Tank comes off easy (once you remove the tupperware & disconnect wires & hoses). Hoses are on top with a self-sealing pressure side connector so no issues there.  

 

I have removed full tanks before but they do weight a ton (well a lot anyways).