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I agree with FortNine....your thoughts?


Whip

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Only at posted speed limits.

 

When I am riding at a more spirited velocity I need the extra lean angle provided by the "Ride Smart" theories. 

 

I think around town the criss cross is a better way to ride.

 

Your thoughts?

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30 minutes ago, Whip said:

Only at posted speed limits.

 

When I am riding at a more spirited velocity I need the extra lean angle provided by the "Ride Smart" theories. 

 

I think around town the criss cross is a better way to ride.

 

Your thoughts?

Morning Whip

 

Being an avid off-roader I use cross-control a LOT, even on my street motorcycles. But as you say, using standard kiss-the-inside-mirror works much/much better at high speeds & when less lean angle is needed to prevent motorcycle hard parts contacting the pavement.

 

I am a believer in letting a motorcycle do what it does naturally without forcing it so I pretty well use the amount of body lean-in or cross-control body lean-out to allow that to happen. Obviously the faster I ride & corner (or curve)  the more lean IN that I use & the slower I ride, turn, or corner the more cross-control that I use. 

 

The only way I can get a larger street motorcycle to make a U turn (staying on pavement)  on a 2 lane back road is to use a LOT of cross-control with off-setting body weight placement. 

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It was an interesting video for sure, On my more sporting motorcycles from my past with much lower bars I don't think I would use leaning the other way BUT on the RT I find being Neutral the most normal feeling , a bit of shoulder lean one way or another is all I seem to need to feel comfortable at most any speed. In general on the street exaggerated movements do more to upset most bikes than really help. 

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Michaelr11

Damn!   I finally got comfortable with kiss the mirror and now I'll have to learn all over again.   Not going to happen.  I ride all of my bikes in a Neutral to mild lean-in position. I really don't move my butt around but I definitely move my head and shoulders to the inside.  I'm not sure if it is the years of practice or the lean-in itself, but I feel very comfortable taking the curves, and I have found that I am wearing my tires LESS close to the edge than I did years ago.  But, I think I am going faster????? 

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lawnchairboy
3 hours ago, Whip said:

Only at posted speed limits.

 

When I am riding at a more spirited velocity I need the extra lean angle provided by the "Ride Smart" theories. 

 

I think around town the criss cross is a better way to ride.

 

Your thoughts?

I agree.  Also on the 10mph blind tight switchbacks in NC counterlean is better so in the left handers you don't get your head taken off by an F-350 mirror. 

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roadscholar

Didn't watch the whole video but don't think I need to. It won't be popular here for obvious reasons but counter-lean, period. If you're scraping hard parts in a curve you're either on the wrong motorcycle or going too fast on public roads, or both. It has nothing to do with breaking the law, I do that every time I get in a car or got on a motorcycle : ) 

 

I know people want to ride their RT.GT, ST to the mountains and see how fast they can go in the twisties, it's natural (for us) to see how far you can push the limits. But it's dangerous, for you and everyone else sharing the road with you (I've done it plenty and consider myself lucky). When you're strafing a curve at 9/10 with the lean-in position you're totally committed and can't adjust your trajectory around a blind turn quickly enough in case of an emergency (I won't list them but imagine at least 10 without thinking too hard). In a counter lean however you can likely change direction enough for it to matter. 

 

GS's, dual sports, and Adv bikes obviously have more suspension travel for offroad, but also provide a lot more clearance when leaned over on pavement usually negating the need to lean in. Everyone has a different level of risk/reward and ability/experience but if you're regularly getting near the limits of a modern motorcycle you should be on a racetrack not a public road. 

 

I've ridden the super-twisties of WNC for nearly 40 years and driven sportscars on them for over 50 and have seen nearly everything bad that can happen. I also have friends that it was their last ride and others that were seriously injured, all experienced long time riders. Don't be one of them, slow down a little and enjoy the scenery, it's not worth it.   

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John Ranalletta
59 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

Didn't watch the whole video but don't think I need to. It won't be popular here for obvious reasons but counter-lean, period. If you're scraping hard parts in a curve you're either on the wrong motorcycle or going too fast on public roads, or both. It has nothing to do with breaking the law, I do that every time I get in a car or got on a motorcycle : ) 

 

I know people want to ride their RT.GT, ST to the mountains and see how fast they can go in the twisties, it's natural (for us) to see how far you can push the limits. But it's dangerous, for you and everyone else sharing the road with you (I've done it plenty and consider myself lucky). When you're strafing a curve at 9/10 with the lean-in position you're totally committed and can't adjust your trajectory around a blind turn quickly enough in case of an emergency (I won't list them but imagine at least 10 without thinking too hard). In a counter lean however you can likely change direction enough for it to matter. 

 

GS's, dual sports, and Adv bikes obviously have more suspension travel for offroad, but also provide a lot more clearance when leaned over on pavement usually negating the need to lean in. Everyone has a different level of risk/reward and ability/experience but if you're regularly getting near the limits of a modern motorcycle you should be on a racetrack not a public road. 

 

I've ridden the super-twisties of WNC for nearly 40 years and driven sportscars on them for over 50 and have seen nearly everything bad that can happen. I also have friends that it was their last ride and others that were seriously injured. Don't be one of them, slow down a little and enjoy the scenery, it's not worth it.   

:18:from "the very slow moving couple".   I've stopped joining other riders who are much better riders than I.  Better chance of seeing them at day's end.

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RandyShields

This is a topic I have thought about a lot, and experimented with a lot, over the past 20-30 years.  I am totally onboard with Whip -- for most riding, whether slow or moderate speeds, neutral or counter steering is the most natural and most comfortable for me, and lets me carve as much as I want to.  I remember getting some shade when I was on my 1150 RT and guys would tell me I'm not leaning.  Well, right, I'm not leaning, but the bike is leaning.  Even on some track days with a VFR, I tried some counter steering in turns and was able to go faster than a lot of guys (none higher than intermediate level riders, though) doing the road racing thing.  

 

When I wick it up a bit in the mountains, however, Ride Smart, inner lean, kiss the mirrors, road racing -- whatever you want to call it -- is faster for me.  Yes, there is less control if something happens, but I now just naturally fall into that technique when going faster.  It is more work, but is more comfortable and natural at speed.  All within the posted speed limits of course.

 

 

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Counter steering is different than counter balancing the bike like in the video. Every turn on a bike above a few mph is initiated by counter steering.

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When I was young I road dirt a lot. When leaning if I lost it, it was a low side 90% of the time. When counter steering (which is what I did most of the time below 30 ish) I would high side when I lost it. High side usually meant parts and pain. Low side not so much. That said I agree with video’s

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Guys use the right terminology. Counter steering is pushing the handlebar in the opposite direction to cause the motorcycle to lean in to a curve. Basic msf course teaches this. Counter balancing is shifting your weight to the outside versus staying neutral or leaning into the inside of the turn.

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2 hours ago, TSConver said:

Guys use the right terminology

 

I am using the right terminology....I counter steered in dirt....turning left, handlebars right....just like on snow.

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This is the best example of Counterbalancing...... and the only time I use it is during tight low speed maneuvers. At speed on pavement I lean with the bike or slide to the inside edge of my seat to maintain contact patch and ground clearance. I only get to the edge of my tires at track days ( would be going way too fast if I did that on public roads) So, high side weighted for slow tight turns, low side weighted for medium to high speed turns on pavement.

 

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9M7...The folks who can ride like he did are amazing.  I do have a question as I know you might have the answer.  If an MC/LEO was trying to catch a perp in a neighborhood against a hot car, and had the skills of Quinn...would they be able to stay with them or would a car be able to eventually pull away as they turned street after street.  In my hood we lost a MC/LEO...friend of mine, a couple of years ago during a chase.  He was on an HD.  On a turn he went wide and hit a telephone pole at a good rate of speed.  The mustang driver got away for that moment but was later apprehended.  

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Joe Frickin' Friday
15 hours ago, roadscholar said:

Didn't watch the whole video but don't think I need to. It won't be popular here for obvious reasons but counter-lean, period. If you're scraping hard parts in a curve you're either on the wrong motorcycle or going too fast on public roads, or both. It has nothing to do with breaking the law, I do that every time I get in a car or got on a motorcycle : ) 

 

Maintaining ground clearance is one reason to lean your body into the turn; the other is to keep the bike a little closer to upright so that the suspension is better oriented to absorb the bumps and dips of the road.  That said, there are times when counterleaning gets you better results - most notably at very low speeds.

 

20 hours ago, dirtrider said:

The only way I can get a larger street motorcycle to make a U turn (staying on pavement)  on a 2 lane back road is to use a LOT of cross-control with off-setting body weight placement. 

 

This is one of them.  If you keep the bike upright with the handlebars turned all the way to the lock, your turning radius is just a bit too large to make a U-turn under these circumstances.  Leaning the bike into the U-turn (by leaning your body out) enables a tighter turning radius, as is thoroughly demonstrated during police rodeos.  The tightest turning radius comes when the bars are all the way to the lock and the bike is leaned to the point where hard parts are about to scrape pavement.  

 

One other circumstance where I counterlean is when I put new tires on the bike, and I want to scrub in the tread a bit.  I head to an empty parking lot and ride in the tightest circles I can, with the maximum counterlean.  This gets the lateral parts of the tread in contact with the pavement without incurring high lateral acceleration.

 

The MSF teaches an emergency swerve maneuver that includes countersteers: if you want to go left around an obstacle, you first push on the left bar to start a left turn, then push right to get back to a straight-down-the-road path of travel after you've cleared the obstacle.  Using this method, you and your bike both travel around the left side of the obstacle.  But if the object you're trying to avoid is small - say, a fist-sized rock in the middle of your lane - you can get your tires to go around the obstacle without having the rest of the bike (or your body) deviate much at all:

 

1.  See the rock.

2.  Push the right bar; tire contact patches swing out to left, bike leans right.  Keep your body more or less vertical (i.e. counterlean).

3.  You and your bike pass directly over the rock, while your contact patches pass by on the left side of the rock.  

4. Once you're past the rock, push the left bar to bring the bike back to vertical.  

 

Done correctly, steps 2-4 take place in about one second total. Step 2 initiates a right turn, and step four ends that right turn before you've deviated much at all from your original path of travel.   You can practice this technique using visual reference points on the road (cracks, tar snakes, etc.) that won't present an actual hazard if you screw up and run them over.

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11 hours ago, Skywagon said:

 

I am using the right terminology....I counter steered in dirt....turning left, handlebars right....just like on snow.

 

That is not countersteering that is drifting.  Countersteering is very specific term that causes the motorcycle to lean by pressing on the hand grip in the direction you want to turn which causes the motorcycles front tire to point the opposite direction and then the motorcycle leans and the tire falls back in line.  What you are talking about is what flat track riders do.

 

Countersteering is used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean.[1] The rider's action of countersteering is sometimes referred to as "giving a steering command".[2][3]:15

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11 hours ago, Skywagon said:

If an MC/LEO was trying to catch a perp in a neighborhood against a hot car, and had the skills of Quinn...would they be able to stay with them or would a car be able to eventually pull away as they turned street after street.  In my hood we lost a MC/LEO...friend of mine, a couple of years ago during a chase.  He was on an HD.  On a turn he went wide and hit a telephone pole at a good rate of speed.

Very sorry to hear about your friend...... Very unfortunate that he was handicapped by his agency's choice in M/C. That's not a dig, just facts. The hardest part of a pursuit is staying within the limits of your equipment.

The answer to your question is they should be able to stay with the car. The M/C and the car have different strengths in a pursuit, the M/C has acceleration and usually braking with a skilled operator. The Officer will also have much more experience at higher speeds and dynamic maneuvers. The car has corner speed due to the four wheel base and doesn't need be concerned about surface traction issues. Newer vehicles can also out brake the bike if the driver uses them to the point of ABS intervention (most don't). 

My experience includes both vehicles, and also chasing both vehicles. While on a BMW RT-P, cars were easy to stay up with due to the excellent acceleration and braking. I just watched my corner speed to adjust for surface issues and would close back up on acceleration.  Usually required about 75-80% of the bike's capability. A car has a better chance of getting away from a bike on the freeway as the speed becomes too dangerous for the motor officer...... that's why we have helo's

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Thanks 9M7 for info. We don’t have many motoLEO’s here. We see them mostly for events

 

TS… on countersteering there are lots of definitions. This is WIKI and how I learned to ride. Got my first dirt bike ~ 1960 Dad sent me to local track school where I learned the below definition.  So tomato toe mat o

 

Countersteering is used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean.[1] The rider's action of countersteering is sometimes referred to as "giving a steering command".[2][3]:15

 

 

 

 

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This is a very interesting read for me. Started riding pre-teens , dirt , and never took a course. Pretty much learned from the school of hard knocks , along with reading books and post's like this , and practice.  Had a couple low siders when I first started road riding . I have had my share of spirited riding , but with age comes wisdom and slower reflex . I am now inline with what Road Scholar posted. Stay within my ability and enjoy the scenery.

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2 minutes ago, taylor1 said:

with age comes wisdom

 

Agree...fast and scary left town about 5 years ago.  Pleasure replaced it.  Think I'll fire up the Penton today and pretend I'm riding like a teenager.  

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roadscholar
23 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

Maintaining ground clearance is one reason to lean your body into the turn; the other is to keep the bike a little closer to upright so that the suspension is better oriented to absorb the bumps and dips of the road.  That said, there are times when counterleaning gets you better results - most notably at very low speeds.

 

Guess I could've been clearer but wasn't debating that leaning in isn’t the proper way to get the most performance from your bike. Was also pinpointing a specific geographic area, the southern Appalachians where a lot of the curves are blind and/or tight with little or no sight lines. Combine that with moderate or heavy (Deal's Gap, Highlands Plateau) traffic and risk rises substantially.  

 

23 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

The MSF teaches an emergency swerve maneuver that includes countersteers: if you want to go left around an obstacle, you first push on the left bar to start a left turn, then push right to get back to a straight-down-the-road path of travel after you've cleared the obstacle.  Using this method, you and your bike both travel around the left side of the obstacle.  But if the object you're trying to avoid is small - say, a fist-sized rock in the middle of your lane - you can get your tires to go around the obstacle without having the rest of the bike (or your body) deviate much at all:

 

If it's a bus/dump truck/semi using both lanes in the Dragon or Nantahala Gorge or worse, a kid rounding a blind 120 in your lane looking at his phone (had it happen), or a bro-dozer straightening out some S's, the penalty for being committed at 9/10 at the wrong time could be bad.   

 

Which was the larger point of the post, just trying to inject a little caution and local experience, if people want to do 130 at sweeper madness where you can see for miles have at it, but in the tight and blind down here, it would be prudent to back it down a little and prepare for the unexpected.

 

23 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

Done correctly, steps 2-4 take place in about one second total. Step 2 initiates a right turn, and step four ends that right turn before you've deviated much at all from your original path of travel.   You can practice this technique using visual reference points on the road (cracks, tar snakes, etc.) that won't present an actual hazard if you screw up and run them over.

 

Dirt riders are doing that constantly so it's second nature when they're riding pavement, street only riders generally don't so they need to think about it when a situation arises, every fraction of a second is valuable at that point. 

 

If you're concerned about your tire's contact patch, optimum working suspension, and possibly scraping bodywork, you're pushing the limits and into the realm of racetrack velocity which is a controlled environment, almost everything else isn't.  

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I used to ride at what I thought was 9/10ths on the Harley, through the curves, now  about a 6/10ths rider, still more than most HD riders. I work on being smoothe and carrying a good line more than outright speed.

The motor still gets 10/10 workout though. It's evil and must be punished.

If and when I get the RT, I feel a little more speed will be carried thru the corners....

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On 9/13/2021 at 7:15 AM, Whip said:

Your thoughts?

Wait till David sees this:lurk:

 

 

 

As you may remember I agreed with you (back in the day) that this technique is definitely invaluable in certain situations. 
This is Tuna Canyon we’re using this technique works the best as it’s relatively low speed with rapid transitions/curves. 
 

 

 

image.png

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