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Buying my first BMW...an R1150RT...sitting for 3 years need some guidance please


Kilohertz

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dirtrider
6 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

Thanks Lowndes and Dirtrider,

 

Well you nailed it, my first ride was a little nerve racking, barely hit 90kmh, and wasn't really letting the bike do its' thing. It was also blazing hot and a fair bit of traffic. It's supposed to hit 45C today so it will have to wait until sundown, man that's hot riding. :jaw:

I'm sure I will get used to it in time...it sure is a beautiful bike.

 

cheers :beer:

Morning  Kilohertz

 

To me a BMW 1100S bike is like a good aged whisky, takes a while to get  used to.  ---   But once you do they are a great riding & fairly good handling motorcycle. If used like it was designed to be used then it will definitely get you some memorable tickets. 

 

I would still l have one but top speed is kind of limited & the handling is somewhat dated so Ducati kind of fills that gap in my riding stable now.

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Kilohertz

Wow! The 11S isn't fast enough for you? I, so far,  have found I could probably get by with just one cylinder, I am a pretty docile rider (so far) :old:

 

I went for a short ride after sun down and raising the bars was a big improvement, my hands didn't fall asleep, I tried squeezing the tank with my knees and using my stomach muscles to hold up my back, relieved the pressure on my hands but felt kind of awkward and may get tiring after a while. Like was mentioned, I'll ride it for a while now as is and get used to it.

 

I replaced the blown 4A fuse for the tail light and license lamp, those both work again. Kind of a PITA having to dismantle the fairing just to get to the fuses, hopefully won't need to get to them very often. Someone has put in the flashing LED module brake light thing which works great, maybe the fuse blew if he installed it with the power on.

 

Speaking of which, I noticed tonight (it was darker outside) that there is a red light on the left handle bar right on the clutch reservoir.  What is that indicating to me?

 

And another thing, does anyone have a scanned or PDF version of the "Riders Manual" for this bike.  PM me and I will give you an email address.  I have the service manual, the technical manual that was under the seat, but don't have any info on what the various lights mean and what switches do what. For example yesterday, I found out tonight, that I was riding with the grip heaters on, while it was 40C outside. he he.

 

Anyway, that's the update for tonight, even hotter today, 42C, supposed to be 45 tomorrow. Bloody hell.

 

Cheers

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dirtrider

Morning   Kilohertz

 

Wow! The 11S isn't fast enough for you? I, so far,  have found I could probably get by with just one cylinder, I am a pretty docile rider (so far)--- Not nearly fast enough to keep up with my riding group on a spirited ride. The older BMW boxer bikes feel fast UNTIL you ride them off against something modern with better suspension & some decent horsepower. 

 

I went for a short ride after sun down and raising the bars was a big improvement, my hands didn't fall asleep, I tried squeezing the tank with my knees and using my stomach muscles to hold up my back, relieved the pressure on my hands but felt kind of awkward and may get tiring after a while. Like was mentioned, I'll ride it for a while now as is and get used to it.--- Some riders get used to it & others don't but do give it a chance before making wholesale changes.

 

I replaced the blown 4A fuse for the tail light and license lamp, those both work again. Kind of a PITA having to dismantle the fairing just to get to the fuses, hopefully won't need to get to them very often. Someone has put in the flashing LED module brake light thing which works great, maybe the fuse blew if he installed it with the power on.--- Installing with power on shouldn't blow a fuse.

 

Speaking of which, I noticed tonight (it was darker outside) that there is a red light on the left handle bar right on the clutch reservoir.  What is that indicating to me?--- Are your referring to the hazard light push button switch?  Push it to see if your hazards come on?   Post a picture of the light (or switch) that you are referring to. 

 

And another thing, does anyone have a scanned or PDF version of the "Riders Manual" for this bike.  PM me and I will give you an email address.  I have the service manual, the technical manual that was under the seat, but don't have any info on what the various lights mean and what switches do what.--- That era of riders manual was before there were BMW electronic riders manuals available on-line so you will probably have to find/buy a paper copy or find one that someone will scan one for you. 

 
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Kilohertz
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:
 

Speaking of which, I noticed tonight (it was darker outside) that there is a red light on the left handle bar right on the clutch reservoir.  What is that indicating to me?--- Are your referring to the hazard light push button switch?  Push it to see if your hazards come on?   Post a picture of the light (or switch) that you are referring to. 

 

 

 

Good morning.
 
Well sir you are 100% correct, it's the Hazard light switch, I guess it is on the same 4A cct that had the blown fuse which is why I didn't notice it before.
 
Thanks!
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Kilohertz

So as I read thru info on the web and the service manual, I have a question about my aftermarket exhaust, Z Technik. I think I have the Motronic 2.4 system in my '99, if not someone please correct me, and that uses an O2 sensor for fuel mixture feedback, which attached to the CAT which is now gone, and as I know FI systems pretty well, this will probably now be running in open loop mode. I have the original mufflers but sadly the CAT is missing.

 

Should I be concerned? Should I find a CAT and go back to stock?

 

Thanks

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

So as I read thru info on the web and the service manual, I have a question about my aftermarket exhaust, Z Technik. I think I have the Motronic 2.4 system in my '99, if not someone please correct me, and that uses an O2 sensor for fuel mixture feedback, which attached to the CAT which is now gone, and as I know FI systems pretty well, this will probably now be running in open loop mode. I have the original mufflers but sadly the CAT is missing.

 

Should I be concerned? Should I find a CAT and go back to stock?

 

Thanks

Morning   Kilohertz

 

Now THAT is darn good question.  The Ma 2.4 in the (R) or (RT)  (is really not programed properly for continuous no o2 sensor open loop operation). Your 1100S is kind of an outlier so I really don't know much about the open loop mapping for full time operation. 

 

It shouldn't  kill your engine running full time open loop as there are full range open loop maps in the Motronic Ma 2.4. But on the 1150 bikes those can be a bit on the lean side in certain operating situations. (I'm not sure where your 1100S fits in here). 

 

You have a few options:  Just  keep running it open loop to see how it runs as far as light throttle surging & mid throttle cruising goes.   Wide open throttle & heavy acceleration should be OK as they normally go open loop there anyhow. With no o2 sensor you do lose the learned fueling off-set adaptives  learned from the o2 sensor input. 

 

Or you can have an o2 sensor bung welded on your present exhaust then add an o2 sensor. 

 

You can also try adding an IAT (Intake Air Temperature) spoofer to make the Motronic think the intake  air  is colder than it really is, this can richen the fuel/air mixture slightly . These things don't work worth a hoot on an o2 sensor controlled closed loop system but can richen a full open loop system slightly.  

 

Did you try contacting the last owner to see if they still have the missing exhaust pieces & just forgot about having them?  

 

With you having a pre 2000 BMW boxer it's possible BMW did offer a non cat version for sale in another country so let me do some research to see if I have any old info on pre 2000 1100S  non cat info. (this will take some time as that era was before  most info was in electronic form so I will have to look in my old  paper info)

 

  

 

 

 

 

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Kilohertz

Thanks Dirtrider!!

 

From what I have read, there was use of the Ma 2.2 in certain countries which runs open loop with an oxygen potentiometer,  whatever the heck that is, instead of the Lambda O2 sensor .

 

The exhaust was installed by a BMW dealer before the last owner bought it. I'll ask if he got the CAT.

 

I think my best option, once I do some more research, is have the bung welded in and put in the O2 sensor. I'll need to find the wire on the bike, hopefully was just unplugged and zap strapped somewhere, and the new sensor will plug right in.

 

I'll pull the plugs after work to have a look see at how it has been running.

 

More later.

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dirtrider
28 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

Thanks Dirtrider!!

 

From what I have read, there was use of the Ma 2.2 in certain countries which runs open loop with an oxygen potentiometer,  whatever the heck that is, instead of the Lambda O2 sensor .

 

The exhaust was installed by a BMW dealer before the last owner bought it. I'll ask if he got the CAT.

 

I think my best option, once I do some more research, is have the bung welded in and put in the O2 sensor. I'll need to find the wire on the bike, hopefully was just unplugged and zap strapped somewhere, and the new sensor will plug right in.

 

I'll pull the plugs after work to have a look see at how it has been running.

 

More later.

Morning Kilohertz

 

The Ma 2.2 was the standard fueling computer on the other BMW 1100 motorcycles & those did use a   CO potentiometer on the non Cat equipped motorcycles (I've never heard of an oxygen potentiometer). The  CO potentiometer (idle trim pot)  was used to trim the idle CO output to meet the CO standards in each country sold in. The  CO potentiometer was ONLY used on non cat/ non o2 sensor  equipped bikes.  

 

I wasn't aware that BMW used the Ma 2.2 on the 1100S bike sold without a cat (I will have to look into this, but due to the great differences in wiring harness & fueling control it doesn't seem logical, but BMW has done some strange things at times)

 

As far as checking the spark plugs that is very difficult to do if using E-10 fuel, the BMW 1100/1150 boxers usually darken the plugs if not run for a distance at speed, then they appear very white after a proper long high speed run, with an ignition cut & coasting to a stop. Reading plugs on a fuel injected 1100/1150 boxer running E-10 fuel is not like the old days with nice defined colors. 

 

It is usually easier to just ride them & look for lean surging or flat light throttle response. 

 

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Kilohertz

Well it's entirely possible I mis-read the Ma2.2 with the CO pot, on R1100S in certain countries, I'll continue reading, there is LOTS of info on tuning the Ma2.4, new chips and such. I do have the capability to read the PROMS, but would rather not get into it that deep, I just want to ride it. I'm currently installing an 80's GM TBI system on a '49 Ford flathead...programming the EPROM and such to meet the smaller fuel requirements of the flattie...but I digress.

 

cheers

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dirtrider
17 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

Well it's entirely possible I mis-read the Ma2.2 with the CO pot, on R1100S in certain countries, I'll continue reading, there is LOTS of info on tuning the Ma2.4, new chips and such. I do have the capability to read the PROMS, but would rather not get into it that deep, I just want to ride it. I'm currently installing an 80's GM TBI system on a '49 Ford flathead...programming the EPROM and such to meet the smaller fuel requirements of the flattie...but I digress.

 

cheers

Afternoon  Kilohertz

 

I just threw out 6 mid 1980's 2.5 liter ultraviolet-erasable  EPROM's a couple of months ago, the stock PROM's were not erasable or changeable back then. (I did lot of work on that early GM TBI injection in it's early stages of development).  I think I still have a box full of MAP sensors & 4 pin IAC's. 

 

Are you building your TBI system up from pieces or are you using a kit of some sort?  

 

What are you using for a TAC input, some of those early (4 cylinder anyhow) TBI systems used a Hall Effect Sensor input. 

 

 

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Kilohertz said:

Well it's entirely possible I mis-read the Ma2.2 with the CO pot, on R1100S in certain countries, I'll continue reading, there is LOTS of info on tuning the Ma2.4, new chips and such. I do have the capability to read the PROMS, but would rather not get into it that deep, I just want to ride it. I'm currently installing an 80's GM TBI system on a '49 Ford flathead...programming the EPROM and such to meet the smaller fuel requirements of the flattie...but I digress.

 

cheers

Afternoon Kilohertz

 

I found some info in my old 98/99/2000 R bike archives notebook (I'm working from home today).

 

I do so little work on the 1100S bikes & even less work on them the last few years now that I just about have to look everything up as they are SO darn different. I haven't ever worked on a factory non Cat 1100S bike. 

 

I found an old BMW document that might help us, it shows the CCP usage for the 1100S motorcycles. It does show a European 1100S Non Cat (apparently there was one) as using the Ma 2.4 Motronic with no CCP installed. 

 

This would (should)  mean that there must be a non Cat map in the 1100S Motronic (I will try to dig deeper into this to verify). Problem is there is so little info available on this, & what is available online is usually guessed at or not confirmed (just someone posting babble).  My best bet here is my old (paper form)  BMW bulletins, BMW service info sheets, & my personal notes as at least the info there is usually credible.

 

That also tells me that there "m-i-g-h-t" have been a wire harness pig tail  on that 1100S to fit a Co pot. (again I will try to find more info but it is very limited on the European 1100S).  I haven't ever found a Co Pot pigtail on any other 2.4 Motronic BMW boxer motorcycle so if it (1100S)  does have a Co pot pigtail then it would be a real outlier.     

 

The offsetting on the above is:  I have BMW  Co Potentiometer CO adjustment  bulletin that covers Co pot settings & it lists all the 1100  boxer bikes except the 1100S. Now I don't know if this is telling us something or the Ma 2.4 doesn't have a Co Pot adjustment capability. 

 

To me it seems unrealistic that BMW would sell a 1999 era 1100S motorcycle without a Cat & without a means to adjust the idle Co to meet the mandated idle Co output in some European countries, UNLESS they only sold that non Cat/ no CCP configuration in countries that didn't have an idle Co testing mandate.  

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dirtrider

Afternoon Kilohertz

 

OK, now to confuse us even more__ I looked through my old archive BMW European wire diagrams & they show an o2 sensor used on the pre-2001  European 1100S bikes. That means they must of had a Cat. Also, didn't show a Co pot pig tail (so no option for adding a Co Pot).

 

This doesn't completely tell us that all the European 1100S bikes had a Cat with o2 but at least some did (at least according to the wire diagrams) .  

 

So we might be back to just countries that didn't have an idle Co testing mandate possibly getting a no o2 & no cat 1100S. 

 

The problem is, in using old wire diagrams to confirm emission configurations is sketchy at best as those wire diagrams were not electronic so were not updated to include emission or country regulation changes. 

 

I don't believe France had an idle Co testing mandate back in the late 1990's & I have some French BMW boxer info but obviously they are in French so I need to see what I can find then translate (my wife knows some French so maybe this is a bonding moment).

 

 

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Kilohertz

 

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  Kilohertz

 

I just threw out 6 mid 1980's 2.5 liter ultraviolet-erasable  EPROM's a couple of months ago, the stock PROM's were not erasable or changeable back then. (I did lot of work on that early GM TBI injection in it's early stages of development).  I think I still have a box full of MAP sensors & 4 pin IAC's. 

 

Are you building your TBI system up from pieces or are you using a kit of some sort?  

 

What are you using for a TAC input, some of those early (4 cylinder anyhow) TBI systems used a Hall Effect Sensor input. 

 

 

 

Well shoot, I could of used those EPROMS, I have 3 or 4 here from my radio programming days, should be enough to play with.  That's cool that you were working on the TBI when it first came out, and now people are laughing at me as I am putting 40 year old technology, on a 70 year old truck. Will certainly be better than the single Holley 94.

 

I have stripped a few late 80's GM trucks of their ECM, harness and all the sensors required, distributor as well. I have already machined one GM points disti to fit the flathead so I could get vacuum advance and good mechanical advance....will be easy to turn the TBI disti as there is hardly anything inside it. I still need to find the 2.8L throttle body as the venturis are the correct size, the 4.3-5.7L are too big. Going to be mounting it on a '52 Merc manifold which has 1 3/8" carb ports, same as the 2.8L TB, just different spacing. An adapter plate will solve that.  Won't be using a knock sensor, don't think this gen had TAC. I have the IAC, MAP, TPS, engine temp and probably something else I am forgetting. I haven't worked on it for a few months as I was stumped trying to find the 2.8L TB. Everything that old around here has already been crushed.

 

And wow! Thanks for all the research on the Ma2.4/2.2 ECMs, that's great. A lot of info to digest. There is a fair bit of info out there, the Pelican forum seems to have quite a few older threads about this, as well as the Auzie Adventure Rider forum. It seems there are 8 sections of code with 80 maps in each?? From what I read, some people have pulled out the CCP, it lives somewhere outside the ECM??

 

I'm still learning the Motronic system. I have also played with D and L Jetronic systems for my VW dune buggy engines, very simple compared to this stuff. All thru hole boards, easy to solder and replace parts.

 

more later, THANKS!

 

Cheers

 

DSC_7739.thumb.JPG.2aa2dda3fa6af490ef023f553daa84d5.JPG

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dirtrider
13 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

 

 

Well shoot, I could of used those EPROMS, I have 3 or 4 here from my radio programming days, should be enough to play with.  That's cool that you were working on the TBI when it first came out, and now people are laughing at me as I am putting 40 year old technology, on a 70 year old truck. Will certainly be better than the single Holley 94.

 

I have stripped a few late 80's GM trucks of their ECM, harness and all the sensors required, distributor as well. I have already machined one GM points disti to fit the flathead so I could get vacuum advance and good mechanical advance....will be easy to turn the TBI disti as there is hardly anything inside it. I still need to find the 2.8L throttle body as the venturis are the correct size, the 4.3-5.7L are too big. Going to be mounting it on a '52 Merc manifold which has 1 3/8" carb ports, same as the 2.8L TB, just different spacing. An adapter plate will solve that.  Won't be using a knock sensor, don't think this gen had TAC. I have the IAC, MAP, TPS, engine temp and probably something else I am forgetting. I haven't worked on it for a few months as I was stumped trying to find the 2.8L TB. Everything that old around here has already been crushed.

 

And wow! Thanks for all the research on the Ma2.4/2.2 ECMs, that's great. A lot of info to digest. There is a fair bit of info out there, the Pelican forum seems to have quite a few older threads about this, as well as the Auzie Adventure Rider forum. It seems there are 8 sections of code with 80 maps in each?? From what I read, some people have pulled out the CCP, it lives somewhere outside the ECM??

 

I'm still learning the Motronic system. I have also played with D and L Jetronic systems for my VW dune buggy engines, very simple compared to this stuff. All thru hole boards, easy to solder and replace parts.

 

more later, THANKS!

 

Cheers

 

 

Evening  Kilohertz

 

Interesting project, I have an old early 80's Throttle Body  hanging on my shop wall. I will have to measure it as I can't remember if it is a 2.5 L  or 2.8L TB, I think I have a couple of PCM's in my shop attic also. 

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Kilohertz said:

Just found this...interesting, I haven't finished it all but it looks promising. He mentions a coding plug with 5 pins, the pins are numbered just like a standard Bosch or any other 4 pin automotive relay, 30, 86, 87, 87a etc... Mmmmm

 

https://advrider.com/f/threads/coding-plugs-r1100-r1150-decoded.765242/

Evening  Kilohertz

 

Yes, a CCP is  just simple jumpers in a relay type box. Problem is, most CCP jumper configurations are  for the BMW 1100 (Ma 2.2)  R or RT, RS, GS or the 1150 (Ma 2.4) R or RT, RS, GS. I have most configurations for those usages but your 1100S (Ma 2.4) is  different & I have little information on the  mapping choices or mapping selections on those.  I'm not even sure how many map choices are in the 1100S Motronic 2.4.   

 

My old book shows 2 CCP's used for US 1100S bikes, pins 30-87 jumpered before 12/2002 build date & pins 30-86-87 after 12/2002 build date. Most likely due to later (post 12/2002) 1100S bikes having 2 spark plugs per head with different cylinder heads & needing a different spark curve.      

 

The Swiss 1100S used a pin 30-86 jumping on the single spark 1100S engines (probably due to no Evap can so no need to have a purge command). 

 

Have you looked very closely at your exhaust to see if you have an o2 sensor bung right where the front side pipes combine at the Y pipe (usually right where the Y pipes are welded together in the center of the Y) 

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Kilohertz
4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Have you looked very closely at your exhaust to see if you have an o2 sensor bung right where the front side pipes combine at the Y pipe (usually right where the Y pipes are welded together in the center of the Y) 

 

I was looking for a wire only, I'll crawl under the bike again and look closely for a bung when I go to the shop for my evening beer.

 

I stopped at my friends Euro car/bike shop and borrowed his GS-911, not sure what it will tell me but thought I would at least try to read the codes to see if the Ma reports no O2 sensor and is in open loop or limo or ?? mode.

 

I did find an original CAT and muffler system, unfortunately it comes with a '04 R1100S that had been hit with only 18,000km on it. I still might buy it for a resto project this winter. I might go look at it this weekend. It has an aftermarket exhaust on it already. :facepalm:

 

Cheers

 

BTW, d you know where the diagnostic 10 pin port is in the R1100S bikes?

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dirtrider
2 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

 

BTW, d you know where the diagnostic 10 pin port is in the R1100S bikes?

Evening Kilohertz

 

 

1100S diag connector.JPG

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Lowndes

Kilohertz, Dirtrider,

 

I have the single spark '99 R1100S with the O2 on the cat.  If you need to see the relay pinout or where the O2 sensor wire is, let me know.

 

I believe that diagnostic port (a round screw-lock type) is under the seat midway between the tank and tail light on the left side.  

 

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Kilohertz

Awesome guys! Thanks so much for the help, much appreciated. It's happy hour...off to the shop and I will have a look for the connector and connect the laptop and see what I can see, and it's Canada Day tomorrow and I am off for 4 days so should be able to get the bike all sorted in that time.

 

Lowndes, it sounds like you have the same bike as I do, where are you located?

 

Cheers

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Kilohertz

Well shoot that was easy. The connector was clamped right under the seat just behind the tank. Connected it and only found the 2 hall effect sensor codes when the engine is not running, started it and the faults went away, no other faults.

 

I wiped the inside of the tailpipe and a tiny bit of black came off on my finger, ever so slightly greasy, not black fluffy, but would say the bike has been running just fine and I should leave well enough alone. I'll check the plugs as well but it seems to be happy like this. It still would be nice to know if it's running in closed loop or open loop, not sure how I would determine this.

 

Forgot to check for O2 bung, back to the shop for another beer. :beer:

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Kilohertz

How do you apologize to your new friends, for being a dork, and not doing the fundamental checks first? I feel like such a moron. Damn, I'm old enough to know better...I humbly apologize.

 

Hopefully this won't affect my credibility going forward...

 

Picture is worth about 10,000,000,000,000 words. And my phone, like me, needs glasses.

 

Cheers

 

IMG_0220.thumb.JPG.e5fb7a098599b4a03c3a92819e314526.JPG

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

How do you apologize to your new friends, for being a dork, and not doing the fundamental checks first? I feel like such a moron. Damn, I'm old enough to know better...I humbly apologize.

 

Hopefully this won't affect my credibility going forward...

 

Picture is worth about 10,000,000,000,000 words. And my phone, like me, needs glasses.

 

Cheers

 

Morning  Kilohertz

 

I had a feeling that if you found a bung welded in that Y you would also find a Lambda sensor there as you said the exhaust system was dealer installed. (just as easy to reinstall the o2 sensor than to plug the hole) plus they didn't have to break the law & disable the emission system. 

 

I really liked that spot for the Lambda sensor on some aftermarket pipes for the (S) bikes as the sensor needs to see both side exhausts, needs to be reasonably close to the exhaust ports to read the exhaust oxygen level before the oxygen gets burned up in the piping, & needs to be protected. 

 

The BMW 1200 did it even better as those have a lambda sensor in each pipe (one for each cylinder) so they can put them closer to the exhaust ports. 

 

Welcome to the weird world of the BMW 1100 (S) bike.

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

It still would be nice to know if it's running in closed loop or open loop, not sure how I would determine this.

Morning  Kilohertz

 

You can read sensor output/inputs using that GS-911 or trap a log then view it in Excel, just make sure it has run long enough to be able to go into closed loop.

 

Below was trapped on an 1150  Ma 2.4 twin spark  (basically same info available on the single spark)

 

  

Ma 2.4 Log.JPG

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Lowndes
10 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

Awesome guys! Thanks so much for the help, much appreciated. It's happy hour...off to the shop and I will have a look for the connector and connect the laptop and see what I can see, and it's Canada Day tomorrow and I am off for 4 days so should be able to get the bike all sorted in that time.

 

Lowndes, it sounds like you have the same bike as I do, where are you located?

 

Cheers

 

Kilohertz,

 

I'm in Atlanta.  Too far for a "lunch ride"!!  Meet you half way??

 

My R11S was my first bike in 30 something years and my first "hands-on" with fuel injection.  Several months after I got it we were going for a ride one morning but the battery was low and it woud not crank.  We pushed it up and down a long hill for 45 min and three coronarys before a neighbor stopped to offer help and he asked if it was FI.  That was my intro to FI and is still 50% of all I know about it: Trying to bump-start a FI car/bike (without a good battery) is about like trying to bump start a portable generator.  Hopeless from the get-go.

 

The other half of my total knowledge of FI (that I learnt rite here) is that when I installed an AF-XieD by Nightrider, it made a huge difference in how the engine ran, sounded, and behaved.  It was always very "cold natured", even when warm, stalling, balky at low rpm's, stumbled on opening the throttle and roll-on, and I just thought that was the nature of the beast.  The AF-XieD cured that in a big way almost immediately.  The first thing I noticed was the exhaust note at idle went from pop-pop-pop to more like puff-puff-puff, it just seem to purr, and the engine was so much more compliant and tractable even on a cold start and low rpm's.  It was so much easier and fun to ride, no stalling, and starting off from a stop going uphill was easy.  It let the engine run like it was supposed to run - with the correct A/F mix.  

 

When you and Dirtrider get it sorted out and thru with all that scientific calculations and such, we need to talk about a drain hole for your clutch slave cylinder: 30 minutes could save you a week and several hundred U$D.

 

Happy Canada Day!! (even if it's called off)

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Kilohertz

Good morning boys,

 

Thanks for the input and help. I am just now sitting down after cleaning the house AC evaporator fins, sure makes a difference. I'll be reading the manual for the GS-911 to determine how to best use it then head down to the shop to try it out. Much cooler here today (so far) so should able to get things done, and maybe even go for a ride.

 

My exhaust sounds like puff puff puff, not pop pop pop, so I think it is happy. I will try logging some data as well. I need to return the GS-911 this weekend so want to use it as much as I can while I can. I can always borrow it again if need be. It's interesting to note that it didn't read VIN, mileage or Bike Model. Wonder why? Probably an R1100S thing :dontknow:

 

More later.

 

Cheers

fault codes.pdf

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dirtrider
57 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

 

It's interesting to note that it didn't read VIN, mileage or Bike Model. Wonder why? Probably an R1100S thing 

Afternoon Kilohertz

 

I will only be here from time to time this weekend as I am on the road (well actually off-roading).

 

So I'm not ignoring you just won't have a phone or WiFi connection, or might not have the time even if I do  somehow have a connection. 

 

On your Ma 2.4 1100 S  bike the GS-911 (ie controller) does not report VIN,  Mileage, or Date.  

 

 

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Kilohertz

Okay thanks.

 

Have a great weekend. I just ran the bike and watched the data as it warmed up, went into closed loop, then watched the O2 Lambda plot, pretty neat, it's working as intended. See attached log.

 

Cheers

log 2021-07-01.pdf

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Kilohertz

Happy Independence day to those of you in that country, hope it was a great weekend.

 

I spent the weekend tuning the R1100S thanks to the help of Lowndes. I have it  purring like a kitten, throttles sync'd nicely, bought new 3923 plugs for it, did the zero-zero adjustment and it worked 100% percent. My only possible issue could be a worn Bowden box, or something to do with that system. At idle I have perfect balance and it's close at 2000-3500 RPM, about 2-3" difference on the manometer, it rides nicely and throttle response is good so I think I am chasing an unrealistic goal of perfection, I"m happy with the way it runs now, Thanks Lowndes for the help.

 

On a different note, I went for a nice ride on my Virago on Friday and realized it is tantamount to driving a tractor compared to the BMW, holy cow. My hands were still getting a bit numb so I think I am just out of practice riding, and will take some time to get used to riding again. The other thing I noticed was I now realize that the cruiser style of bike isn't the best handling...:facepalm::whistle:  And, riding this for a few hours, my butt started getting sore...ok I'm sold, I love the BMW. I also made a quick test ride up and down my country road tonight on the BMW and found this bike would be fantastic in the old slow bicycle race, I could turn it within one lane, no feet down, it just carved around the corner....cool.

 

Anyway, hope everyone had a great weekend...only evening rides this week but it's supposed to be MUCH cooler so will be a lot more fun.

 

More later.

 

Cheers

 

My son is the family photographer, and the only positive thing about forest fires in the area, is the smoke makes for some beautiful light.

 

_MW15170.thumb.jpg.4fee16ff8f1470955658de5e764ce822.jpg

 

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

Happy Independence day to those of you in that country, hope it was a great weekend.

 

I spent the weekend tuning the R1100S thanks to the help of Lowndes. I have it  purring like a kitten, throttles sync'd nicely, bought new 3923 plugs for it, did the zero-zero adjustment and it worked 100% percent. My only possible issue could be a worn Bowden box, or something to do with that system. At idle I have perfect balance and it's close at 2000-3500 RPM, about 2-3" difference on the manometer, it rides nicely and throttle response is good so I think I am chasing an unrealistic goal of perfection, I"m happy with the way it runs now, Thanks Lowndes for the help.

 

On a different note, I went for a nice ride on my Virago on Friday and realized it is tantamount to driving a tractor compared to the BMW, holy cow. My hands were still getting a bit numb so I think I am just out of practice riding, and will take some time to get used to riding again. The other thing I noticed was I now realize that the cruiser style of bike isn't the best handling...:facepalm::whistle:  And, riding this for a few hours, my butt started getting sore...ok I'm sold, I love the BMW. I also made a quick test ride up and down my country road tonight on the BMW and found this bike would be fantastic in the old slow bicycle race, I could turn it within one lane, no feet down, it just carved around the corner....cool.

 

Anyway, hope everyone had a great weekend...only evening rides this week but it's supposed to be MUCH cooler so will be a lot more fun.

 

Morning  Kilohertz

 

 2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 RPM is well within reason as that isn't even a blip on most other type balance gauges. 

 

But, you should be able to get it a little closer if you work at it unless you have something worn or out of spec. 

 

In some cases if you have worn throttle shafts or worn throttle shaft bushings then it can be difficult to get a repeatable above idle balance. 

 

Did you adjust your valves first? That is a must to get a precise TB balance as it effects the vacuum delta side to side. 

 

The BBS screws & screw bores also needs to be clean but that usually only effects curb idle balance.   

 

I doubt you have a worn Bowden Box.

 

Just make sure that your lower cables are routed correctly so they are, and STAY, fully seated in the TB cable pockets. If those lower cables are not free to fully seat then you can get a bit of above idle variance.

 

Personally at only 2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 I would just ride it as is until next service as that isn't far enough off to make much of any difference. Also keep in mind that   2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 in neutral is not the same throttle plate opening as 2000-3500 under road load as the throttle plates are open farther for the same RPM under engine load.


Also be careful with that 0=0 thing as that doesn't work (been proven wrong many times), if your 0=0 worked correctly then you  did something wrong.  You can sort of use 0=0 as a starting point if that is all you have but by just using 0=0 that won't leave you with  proper TB settings.   

 

 

 

 

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Kilohertz
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  Kilohertz

 

 2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 RPM is well within reason as that isn't even a blip on most other type balance gauges. 

 

But, you should be able to get it a little closer if you work at it unless you have something worn or out of spec. 

 

In some cases if you have worn throttle shafts or worn throttle shaft bushings then it can be difficult to get a repeatable above idle balance. 

 

Did you adjust your valves first? That is a must to get a precise TB balance as it effects the vacuum delta side to side. 

 

The BBS screws & screw bores also needs to be clean but that usually only effects curb idle balance.   

 

I doubt you have a worn Bowden Box.

 

Just make sure that your lower cables are routed correctly so they are, and STAY, fully seated in the TB cable pockets. If those lower cables are not free to fully seat then you can get a bit of above idle variance.

 

Personally at only 2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 I would just ride it as is until next service as that isn't far enough off to make much of any difference. Also keep in mind that   2-3" (H2o)  difference at 2000-3500 in neutral is not the same throttle plate opening as 2000-3500 under road load as the throttle plates are open farther for the same RPM under engine load.


Also be careful with that 0=0 thing as that doesn't work (been proven wrong many times), if your 0=0 worked correctly then you  did something wrong.  You can sort of use 0=0 as a starting point if that is all you have but by just using 0=0 that won't leave you with  proper TB settings.   

 

 

 

 

 

Good morning,

 

Thank you for your input, I'll leave the balance as is for the summer and just enjoy the bike, I can dig into it again when the weather gets bad.

 

As for the zero-zero thing, I didn't set zero at 10 mV, I ended up at about 30mV  as trying to get 10 was damn near impossible. After doing this I reset the ECM by the remove fuse 4 wait a few minutes, twist throttle twice procedure. Started it and went for a ride. Then I connected the GS-911 and noted everything looked correct on the live data, including idle angle at .32*. I'm not sure if that means it worked??

 

If I decide I want to re-tackle the balance procedure, what is the current correct method?

 

Thanks!

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

 

Good morning,

 

Thank you for your input, I'll leave the balance as is for the summer and just enjoy the bike, I can dig into it again when the weather gets bad.

 

As for the zero-zero thing, I didn't set zero at 10 mV, I ended up at about 30mV  as trying to get 10 was damn near impossible. After doing this I reset the ECM by the remove fuse 4 wait a few minutes, twist throttle twice procedure. Started it and went for a ride. Then I connected the GS-911 and noted everything looked correct on the live data, including idle angle at .32*. I'm not sure if that means it worked??

 

If I decide I want to re-tackle the balance procedure, what is the current correct method?

 

Thanks!

Afternoon Kilohertz

 

First thing you have to keep in mind is there are a number of on-line setting procedures, some correct some somewhat correct, but a lot are based on the 1100 Ma 2.2 & that isn't exactly correct for the Ma 2.4 motorcycles. (just keep that mind) 

 

If you used 10Mv or even 30 Mv it probably isn't exactly correct as 250 Mv to 275 Mv is probably closer as a starting point. Again 0=0 just doesn't work.    With your 30 Mv were you starting with the base idle screws backed out far enough to not contact the throttle cams to allow full throttle plate closing to the throttle bores? (ie not contacting the base idle screw tips). 0=0 (or more like 0=250)   is starting from fully closed throttle plates not starting from the idle stop screws. 

 

Make sure that you fully understand what a 0=0 is, 0=0 doesn't work but you at least need to fully understand that entire procedure. (the first 0 in 0=0 is from a backed out base idle screw allowing throttle plate to close tightly to throttle bore) 

 

But if your GS-911 shows it happy then it is probably still JUST enough in range for the the Ma 2.4 to do a TPS low/high relearn. 

 

If I decide I want to re-tackle the balance procedure, what is the current correct method? -- Here is my balance procedure but somehow I don't think you are asking just about doing the cross side balance. You were messing with the base idle screws & the TPS setting so those are a separate thing to the actual cross side TB balance. 

 

So ASSUMING the  base idle screws & TPS are set correctly (again this is separate to doing an actual balance)

 

I start with the basics, I properly set the valval lash, as that effects the air flow across the throttle plates. 

 

I remove the BBS  screws then clean them as well as the BBS screw tips then using an o2 safe cleaner I clean the  BBS screw air passages under the BBS screws (this is very important to get a good idle balance)

 

If a lot crud found on the BBS screws & in the passages I next de-coke the throttle bores & the  throttle plates (you can't get a good TB balance with the TB bores coked up at the throttle plate interface).

 

I look for loose or worn throttle shafts/bushing as  (you can't get a good idle or above idle balance with the throttle shaft area leaking air)

 

Then with the choke off  (a must) I make sure there is some throttle cable slack at the lower throttle cables (you can't get a meaningful idle balance if a throttle cable is slightly holding a throttle plate open).   

 

I also look at the air boots (between cyl head & throttle body) for any signs of damage or leaking).

 

I usually set the BBS screws at 1-1/2 turns out from seated as a starting  point (or at least verify they are in that area & close to the same turns out from seated).

 

I then warm the engine up with fans blowing on it  (if an active o2 sensor on the bike then I usually  wait & warm long enough to get into closed loop fuel control.

 

Then I first set the warm engine BBS screw base idle to where I want  using the BBS screws. If I have to move them very much from 1-1/2 turs out from seated  I then look for the reason WHY!!!!  (like air leak, improper base idle screw setting leaking valve, something?)

 

I then set the above idle 2500-3500 area cross side balance at steady held throttle but verify that it is still holding a good cross side balance as I lightly open the throttle from idle all the way to about 4000 rpm's.  If it doesn't track within reason  then I stop & find out why.

 

After all is set per above I like to verify that both side throttle cams lift off the base idle screws at the very same time  (they should if was set correctly).

 

Now if it is all messed up, or you used some improper on-line procedure, then you need to start at ground zero & set the base idle screws correctly (or at least a good close starting point  then get the TPS base voltage set close as those need to be set correctly before you can even do a meaningful TB balance)   

 

 

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Kilohertz
4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Kilohertz

 

First thing you have to keep in mind is there are a number of on-line setting procedures, some correct some somewhat correct, but a lot are based on the 1100 Ma 2.2 & that isn't exactly correct for the Ma 2.4 motorcycles. (just keep that mind) 

 

If you used 10Mv or even 30 Mv it probably isn't exactly correct as 250 Mv to 275 Mv is probably closer as a starting point. Again 0=0 just doesn't work.    With your 30 Mv were you starting with the base idle screws backed out far enough to not contact the throttle cams to allow full throttle plate closing to the throttle bores? (ie not contacting the base idle screw tips). 0=0 (or more like 0=250)   is starting from fully closed throttle plates not starting from the idle stop screws. 
 

Yes, correct, as there was no blue paint on the base idle screw and the PO mentioned he had done a TPS adjustment and ECU reset, I wanted to KNOW that it was set correctly so I felt I had nothing to lose as someone had already messed with it. Yes, I backed off the base idle screw until there was a gap and snapped the throttle shut a few times....... to make sure. I also recorded the idle TPS voltage before I touched anything so I had a baseline to go back to if I mucked it up. It was 371mV. As I backed off the screw the voltage dropped and got to 2mV. I loosened the TPS and moved it slightly to get an increase and then dropped it to where it was just shy of being completely off, then tapped it back up a tad to ensure it wouldn't get back to zero, I settled for 30mV. Once I had that initial setting, I started winding in the base idle screw until I got back to 371mV, I ended up at 380mV which is close enough.

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Make sure that you fully understand what a 0=0 is, 0=0 doesn't work but you at least need to fully understand that entire procedure. (the first 0 in 0=0 is from a backed out base idle screw allowing throttle plate to close tightly to throttle bore) 

 

I think I understand it.

 

Quote

But if your GS-911 shows it happy then it is probably still JUST enough in range for the the Ma 2.4 to do a TPS low/high relearn. 

 

If I decide I want to re-tackle the balance procedure, what is the current correct method? -- Here is my balance procedure but somehow I don't think you are asking just about doing the cross side balance. You were messing with the base idle screws & the TPS setting so those are a separate thing to the actual cross side TB balance. 

 

Correct, I was asking about the correct method which replaces the 0=0 procedure.

 

So ASSUMING the  base idle screws & TPS are set correctly (again this is separate to doing an actual balance)

 

I start with the basics, I properly set the valval lash, as that effects the air flow across the throttle plates. 

 

Yes did a valve adjust first.

 

I remove the BBS  screws then clean them as well as the BBS screw tips then using an o2 safe cleaner I clean the  BBS screw air passages under the BBS screws (this is very important to get a good idle balance)

 

If a lot crud found on the BBS screws & in the passages I next de-coke the throttle bores & the  throttle plates (you can't get a good TB balance with the TB bores coked up at the throttle plate interface).

 

Yes, did that, some black, a little greasy, cleaned the port with a carb cleaner saturated swap and cleaned the needle.

 

I look for loose or worn throttle shafts/bushing as  (you can't get a good idle or above idle balance with the throttle shaft area leaking air)

 

This will be a winter time project, I didn't want to dismantle it any more at this time.

 

Quote

Then with the choke off  (a must) I make sure there is some throttle cable slack at the lower throttle cables (you can't get a meaningful idle balance if a throttle cable is slightly holding a throttle plate open).   

 

Yes, backed off all the cables as I knew I would need to re-adjust them.

 

I also look at the air boots (between cyl head & throttle body) for any signs of damage or leaking).

Look okay but didn't remove them.

 

Quote

I usually set the BBS screws at 1-1/2 turns out from seated as a starting  point (or at least verify they are in that area & close to the same turns out from seated).

 

Exactly, had them  backed out 1.5 turns.

 

Quote

I then warm the engine up with fans blowing on it  (if an active o2 sensor on the bike then I usually  wait & warm long enough to get into closed loop fuel control.

 

Then I first set the warm engine BBS screw base idle to where I want  using the BBS screws. If I have to move them very much from 1-1/2 turs out from seated  I then look for the reason WHY!!!!  (like air leak, improper base idle screw setting leaking valve, something?)

 

Since I had reset the left base idle screw, I first adjusted the right base idle screw to balance them with both BBS still at 1.5 turns, then I fine tuned with the BBS, only needed less than 1/4 turn to get them spot on.

 

I then set the above idle 2500-3500 area cross side balance at steady held throttle but verify that it is still holding a good cross side balance as I lightly open the throttle from idle all the way to about 4000 rpm's.  If it doesn't track within reason  then I stop & find out why.

 

After all is set per above I like to verify that both side throttle cams lift off the base idle screws at the very same time  (they should if was set correctly).

 

Yes, did as above, but this is where I saw the 2-3" variance at 2500-3500 RPM, and as I pushed on the right side throttle cable where it sits in the adjustment nut, I could make the balance go out by over 6" on the manometer (ATF BTW) which is what lead me to believe the Bowden box might be worn, or as mentioned, maybe the cables are not positioned correctly, I will have to dismantle it further I think to see that.

Quote

Now if it is all messed up, or you used some improper on-line procedure, then you need to start at ground zero & set the base idle screws correctly (or at least a good close starting point  then get the TPS base voltage set close as those need to be set correctly before you can even do a meaningful TB balance)   

 

Well, I thought it was setup correctly as it rode very nicely, idle perfectly and GS-911 was happy.

 

As I am a bit of a perfectionist, I would at least like to know the correct procedure for setting the base idle screws and TPS voltage so that if I need to do it again, I will do it properly, unless you somehow think I lucked out into getting it right. :dance:

 

Thanks DR.

 

Cheers

 

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Kilohertz

Maybe I could save you a lot of typing...I found this thread from 2014, you and Roger had a discussion about setting the TPS and base idle screws. Zero=250mV.  Is this the proper method? If so it's not a big deal to redo it, all the tools and test gear are still out and manometer still connected.

 

Thanks.

 

And another quick thought...I wonder if anyone has taken a known original, untouched TB and TPS and measured the resting idle voltage, say 370mV, and backed off the base idle screw to see what the voltage was on pin 4 with the throttle plate completely closed?  Was it 0mV, 250mV? Something else? Or is there some factory info on the web I have missed?

 

Just thinking....I hate when that happens. :facepalm:

 

Setting TPS and base idle screws

 

TPS and base screw adjustment thread from another forum

 

 

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dirtrider
11 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

Maybe I could save you a lot of typing...I found this thread from 2014, you and Roger had a discussion about setting the TPS and base idle screws. Zero=250mV.  Is this the proper method? If so it's not a big deal to redo it, all the tools and test gear are still out and manometer still connected.

 

Thanks.

 

And another quick thought...I wonder if anyone has taken a known original, untouched TB and TPS and measured the resting idle voltage, say 370mV, and backed off the base idle screw to see what the voltage was on pin 4 with the throttle plate completely closed?  Was it 0mV, 250mV? Something else? Or is there some factory info on the web I have missed?

 

Just thinking....I hate when that happens. :facepalm:

 

Setting TPS and base idle screws

 

TPS and base screw adjustment thread from another forum

 

 

Morning  Kilohertz

 

There is no PROPER method once the TB's leave the original vendor. All we have in the field  are methods that we personally use & trust.

 

I have used most methods that have been talked about, some tried originally by me, & others ways tried or used by others. Almost ALL work if used as a starting point then the final TPS setting is checked (or re-set after) after hot engine curb idle & hot engine closed throttle cross side  balance is set correctly. 

 

In your present case if you are happy with the idle RPM (I usually set to 1100 hot engine), & happy with the closed throttle balance, & your TPS voltage is .380v with the GS-911 showing an OK  then I would just ride it for while to allow it to settle in. 

 

Then if the idle RPM strays where you want it & the balance stays put then sometime after a 1000 miles of riding just re-adjust the TPS to about .350v to .370v. Your present .380v will work as long as it stays in that area as the Ma 2.4 can still learn fully closed & fully open throttle at that voltage (this is all that matters). 

 

Are you using a low load voltmeter? If your meter places a lot of load on the TPS output circuit that can skew things. I am surprised that you are at .380v with that low of a starting voltage (with/base idle screw backed out).

 

The differences are in the 1100 Ma 2.2 vs the 1100/1150 Ma 2.4

as that Ma 2.4 has the ability to use a closed throttle TPS voltage RANGE then learn full closed & full open throttle positions, whereas the  1100 Ma 2.2 doesn't have a learning ability so needs a more precise specific TPS setting. 

     

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Kilohertz
3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Are you using a low load voltmeter? If your meter places a lot of load on the TPS output circuit that can skew things. I am surprised that you are at .380v with that low of a starting voltage (with/base idle screw backed out).

 

Good morning DR.

 

Yes Fluke 87III

 

Quote

 

The differences are in the 1100 Ma 2.2 vs the 1100/1150 Ma 2.4

as that Ma 2.4 has the ability to use a closed throttle TPS voltage RANGE then learn full closed & full open throttle positions, whereas the  1100 Ma 2.2 doesn't have a learning ability so needs a more precise specific TPS setting. 

     

 

Ah ok, this is the ah-ha moment, now I understand the differences, which now makes sense to me.  So if I understand correctly, it shouldn't really matter what the zero voltage is, 10mV, 50mV, 250mV, as long as the Ma2.4 recognizes the open and closed values, it will automatically adapt and learn and then inject the correct amount of fuel to make the O2 sensor happy, closed loop operation, and achieve the 14.7 AFR . And thusly the only difference between using an initial  voltage of say 10mV and 250 mV would be the actual physical opening of the throttle plate and the resulting different turns out of the BBS needed to able to achieve an idle of 1,100 RPM.  When I tried using the Adjust TPS with the GS-911 (a step which I didn't complete, just wanted to see what it did) it simply wanted me to twist the TPS until it indicated a green bar, a range of initial starting voltage which the Ma2.4 was able to work with.

 

I hope I passed this class and get a gold star, and not end up standing in the corner. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks! :5170:

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dirtrider
44 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

 

Good morning DR.

 

Yes Fluke 87III

 

 

Ah ok, this is the ah-ha moment, now I understand the differences, which now makes sense to me.  So if I understand correctly, it shouldn't really matter what the zero voltage is, 10mV, 50mV, 250mV, as long as the Ma2.4 recognizes the open and closed values, it will automatically adapt and learn and then inject the correct amount of fuel to make the O2 sensor happy, closed loop operation, and achieve the 14.7 AFR . And thusly the only difference between using an initial  voltage of say 10mV and 250 mV would be the actual physical opening of the throttle plate and the resulting different turns out of the BBS needed to able to achieve an idle of 1,100 RPM.  When I tried using the Adjust TPS with the GS-911 (a step which I didn't complete, just wanted to see what it did) it simply wanted me to twist the TPS until it indicated a green bar, a range of initial starting voltage which the Ma2.4 was able to work with.

 

I hope I passed this class and get a gold star, and not end up standing in the corner. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks! :5170:

Morning  Kilohertz

 

Fluke 87III--  Very good meter, that should be just fine for TPS setting. 

 

 

Ah ok, this is the ah-ha moment, now I understand the differences, which now makes sense to me.  So if I understand correctly, it shouldn't really matter what the zero voltage is, 10mV, 50mV, 250mV, as long as the Ma2.4 recognizes the open and closed values, it will automatically adapt and learn and then inject the correct amount of fuel to make the O2 sensor happy, closed loop operation, and achieve the 14.7 AFR .-- Very close, in CLOSED LOOP the TPS has no effect on the fueling as in CLOSED LOOP that is strictly a closed loop between the Motronic & the lambda sensor (that is what closed loop means). Now the second that you move the throttle far enough to force open loop then the TPS comes back into the picture as the TPS position is used for fueling control there. TPS position vs RPM  is used for engine load calculation so TPS output can effect the spark mapping even in closed loop operation.

 

So TPS is used as one of the sensors used to tell the Motronic that closed loop operation can be entered, as well as it is used for all open loop operation, but other than using the TPS signal for throttle position input & throttle movement  the TPS isn't part of the actual closed loop fueling loop. 

 

 And thusly the only difference between using an initial  voltage of say 10mV and 250 mV would be the actual physical opening of the throttle plate and the resulting different turns out of the BBS needed to able to achieve an idle of 1,100 RPM. -- Once the base idle screws are messed with you really don't want to use the BBS for idle RPM setting  if possible as they are mostly for cross side  idle balance (use the base idle screws for basic idle RPM setting.  The  10mV or 250 mV isn't used for any fueling or spark control, those are not  used outputs. 10mV is never used for anything on the  Ma 2.4 systems. That fully closed throttle plate @ 250 mV is JUST  used as a starting point to allow using TPS voltage to set the base idle screw (base throttle plate opening)  somewhat close to where it belongs after the base idle factory setting has been screwed up.

 

When I tried using the Adjust TPS with the GS-911 (a step which I didn't complete, just wanted to see what it did) it simply wanted me to twist the TPS until it indicated a green bar, a range of initial starting voltage which the Ma2.4 was able to work with.-- Yes this will work but I seldom ever use that as it doesn't tell you EXACTLY where the TPS is in the adjustment range. 

 

 

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Kilohertz

OK thank you again.  When I get a moment I'll redo it using the zero=250 and re-balance and call it done.

 

I really appreciate your help!

 

Thank you!

 

Cheers

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dirtrider
19 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

OK thank you again.  When I get a moment I'll redo it using the zero=250 and re-balance and call it done.

 

I really appreciate your help!

 

Thank you!

 

Cheers

Morning Kilohertz

 

NO, you already have it real close so if you go back & use the .250v you could end up worse.  (the .250v is JUST a basic starting point to get you in the ball park)

 

If you are happy with the idle RPM, & happy with the idle balance, & the BBS are fairly close to 1-1/2 turns out, & the BBS are fairly close to each other then JUST set the TPS back a bit to about centered between .340v & .380v. (around .360v or so)

 

Personally if at .380v now then I wouldn't do anything until you ride it 1000 miles then do a re-check, if still at .380v then back it up to .360v or .365v.  Then do another TPS re-learn.

 

Your hot engine idle RPM could easily creep up or drop back as you start riding it therefore requiring some tuning change.

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Kilohertz

Okay, that's easy to do, saves a lot of resetting base screws and such. I'll ride it for a while... I also have the carb kits for the Virago arriving today so that will keep me distracted for a while.

 

Thanks!

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dirtrider
4 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

Okay, that's easy to do, saves a lot of resetting base screws and such. I'll ride it for a while... I also have the carb kits for the Virago arriving today so that will keep me distracted for a while.

 

Thanks!

Morning Kilohertz

 

If you change the TPS setting don't forget to do a new TPS re-learn so it knows the closed & fully open throttle positions. 

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Kilohertz

Good morning,

 

Okay, just  quick update...

 

I turned back the TPS to read 350mV and reset the Ma2.4...started out fine but within 2 minutes idle had crept up to 1300 RPM. Couldn't really knock it down without turning the BBS in another 1/2 turn. Decided since I now had some time (was sent the wrong carb kits) I would reset the idle screws and perform the zero=250.

 

Did that, but now can't get a mechanical idle balance, started with the BBS out 1.5 turns and couldn't get the right TB throttle plate closed enough to balance, tried 2 turns out and 1 turn out of the BBSs, same result, no way to get the right TB to balance properly...


This has now lead me to believe I have worn throttle shafts as there is too much air getting into the engine. I am reluctant to "fix" it by closing the right BBS by almost a turn in more than the left, however maybe this is an acceptable solution?  If I make sure the left - right throttle stops are set the same, I suppose having one TB BBS at 2 turns and one at 1 turn wouldn't be the end of the world, as long as the throttle plates track properly.

 

My other option (until I decide to fix the shaft issue this winter) would be to go back to my zero-30mV and adjust back to 380mV on the TPS and be done with it for the summer. It was working after all. It's so easy to change now, I don't mind doing it. Leaving the tupperware off until it's sorted.

 

Cheers

 

 

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dirtrider
20 minutes ago, Kilohertz said:

Good morning,

 

Okay, just  quick update...

 

I turned the back the TPS to read 350mV and reset the Ma2.4...started out fine but within 2 minutes idle had crept up to 1300 RPM. Couldn't really knock it down without turning the BBS in another 1/2 turn. Decided since I now had some time (was sent the wrong carb kits) I would reset the idle screws and perform the zero=250.

 

Did that, but now can't get a mechanical idle balance, started with the BBS out 1.5 turns and couldn't get the right TB throttle plate closed enough to balance, tried 2 turns out and 1 turn out of the BBSs, same result, no way to get the right TB to balance properly...


This has now lead me to believe I have worn throttle shafts as there is too much air getting into the engine. I am reluctant to "fix" it by closing the right BBS by almost a turn in more than the left, however maybe this is an acceptable solution?  If I make sure the left - right throttle stops are set the same, I suppose having one TB BBS at 2 turns and one at 1 turn wouldn't be the end of the world, as long as the throttle plates track properly.

 

My other option (until I decide to fix the shaft issue this winter) would be to go back to my zero-30mV and adjust back to 380mV on the TPS and be done with it for the summer. It was working after all. It's so easy to change now, I don't mind doing it. Leaving the tupperware off until it's sorted.

 

Afternoon   Kilohertz

 

Something else going on there, make sure the your R/H throttle cable isn't tight!

 

Doubly make sure that your R/H throttle cable is CORRECTLY seated in the adjuster furrel.  (they can easily end up on top of the seat rather than in the seat).

 

Setting the TPS from .380v back to .350v shouldn't have caused your present issue (something else going on) 

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Kilohertz

OK thanks DR,


Well I agree, it's odd. Yes, confirmed I have complete throttle plate closure, I can feel it sticking in the bore when I open it by hand, cables all backed off and cable seated correctly.

 

I'm heading to the shop to have a closer look at everything, and if nothing is evident, I'll retry my old settings.

 

Cheers

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Warren Dean
1 hour ago, Kilohertz said:

OK thanks DR,


Well I agree, it's odd. Yes, confirmed I have complete throttle plate closure, I can feel it sticking in the bore when I open it by hand, cables all backed off and cable seated correctly.

 

I'm heading to the shop to have a closer look at everything, and if nothing is evident, I'll retry my old settings.

 

Cheers

Just a thought here.... I wonder if another person might have removed the throttle plates for cleaning and didn't get them properly seated on reassembly.  :5146:

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Kilohertz

Well I would have replied sooner as I was trying to rotate a stupid video, took 2 hours to try to rotate and only 45 minutes to fix the bike. BLOODY HELL!

 

Anyway, short story long, I reset everything. Backed off the idle screws, set the zero-50mV, my choice, based on my now extensive experience, cranked open the butterfly to read 345mV TPS,  counting the turns, was 21 rotations of my 12 point 7mm wrench, reset the ECM while I adjusted the right side. Went to the right side, started from closed butterfly, opened the same amount as the left, 21 rotations in the space available, didn't count actual turns. Set the BBSs for 1.5 turns out, fired it up and it started after a few seconds...ran slowly about 1000 rpm, but stable, manometer was off a bit so started adjusting the right base idle screw, took about 4 or 5 of my 12 point turns to dial it in...got perfect balance without touching the BBSs, they were still at 1.5 turns. YEAH! Let it warm up a bit more and tweaked the right base idle screw just a tad to keep it balanced, it sat for a minute or 2 warming up further, then I heard a TINK, and the ATF started climbing up one side of the tube, going WAY out of balance...WTF. I had it perfect. Shut it down before the oil crested the top of the manometer and started to investigate. took about 5 seconds, I smelled the distinct odor of  molten vinyl tubing...yup, manometer line was resting on the left head pipe... DOH! Repaired that then set the throttle cables for the 1500-4000 rpm range, took a little bit of fiddling but got it.

 

I think this is about as good as it will get for me. The rear signal lights no longer wiggle, they are dead flat smooth, snappy throttle response;. It rained today so I won't try it until tomorrow, but I think I nailed it.

 

I will borrow the GS-911  again this weekend to confirm I have .32* indicated at idle and everything else looks good.

 

Turn your computer sideways...I gave up trying to rotate the stupid video.

 

Good gravy, what an adventure, I sure learned a lot, thanks DR! et. al.

 

Cheers

 

Finally in balance

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Kilohertz

Took her out for the first trip since the FI system re-balance and WOW! What a difference. It is so smooth now, pulls really well, very even power from idle right thru 5,000RPM..didn't go beyond that yet, I'm still getting used to the bike. Just had a blast winding thru the country roads near me, what a joy. While on the center stand, the bike now wiggles her butt side to side very slightly, instead of just the turn signals, I think that is a good sign of a well balanced engine. Turn signals now don't vibrate at all, before I could kind of balance the TBs by nulling the signal light vibes.

 

Now I am moving on to the comfort aspect of it as my hands still were a little numb after only 20 minutes. Solution, hopefully,  is in the mail...looking forward to numb free riding. I also want to perform the "weep hole" mod to prevent possible clutch disintegration if the slave were to fail.

 

Hope to get a good long ride in this weekend with some friends. Still a few things to work on but I am very happy with the way it is now.

Cheers

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dirtrider
7 hours ago, Kilohertz said:

Took her out for the first trip since the FI system re-balance and WOW! What a difference. It is so smooth now, pulls really well, very even power from idle right thru 5,000RPM..didn't go beyond that yet, I'm still getting used to the bike. Just had a blast winding thru the country roads near me, what a joy. While on the center stand, the bike now wiggles her butt side to side very slightly, instead of just the turn signals, I think that is a good sign of a well balanced engine. Turn signals now don't vibrate at all, before I could kind of balance the TBs by nulling the signal light vibes.

 

Now I am moving on to the comfort aspect of it as my hands still were a little numb after only 20 minutes. Solution, hopefully,  is in the mail...looking forward to numb free riding. I also want to perform the "weep hole" mod to prevent possible clutch disintegration if the slave were to fail.

 

Hope to get a good long ride in this weekend with some friends. Still a few things to work on but I am very happy with the way it is now.

Cheers

Morning  Kilohertz

 

You have done a lot to that motorcycle, don't read ahead too much into that TB balancing as far as higher RPM vibrations go. The cross side balance does effect lower RPM areas like curb idle & just above idle into to the low mid range but unless WAY  off it doesn't have much effect in the higher RPM ranges. 

 

The farther that the throttle plates are open the less vacuum delta you have across the throttle plates, with fully open throttle plates having almost no vacuum delta across the throttle plates.  

 

Not only do you get less negative pressure on the engine side of the throttle plates as the throttle is opened but the small balance difference that is carried up into that higher RPM/load range (therefore small air flow difference) is just a very/very low percent of the total air flowing through those  open throttle plates.

 

Even (matched) fueling side to side at higher RPM/higher engine loadings probably makes way more difference on the lean running  BMW boxer than a small air flow difference between sides. Even (matched) air flow through the TB's  without matching even fuel injected into each side is false hope.  Especially on lean running lambda controlled fueling systems burning E-10 gasoline.   

  

Your biggest (higher RPM)  vibration point in the BMW 1100/1150 boxer engine has nothing to do with TB balance but is caused by the inherent rocking couple caused by the cylinders not being directly across from each other due to piston size & each piston/connecting rod having their own crankshaft journal. Couple this with a solid mounted  engine (no rubber isolation) and there is no way to completely make the BMW boxer vibration free at higher RPM's. (this is usually felt as a higher RPM buzz that is felt in the handlebars, foot pegs, & seat).

 

On performing the "weep hole" mod, be VERY careful with that as it isn't an easy access so if not done correctly you can drill though into the transmission input shaft rear seal & ruin the seal, or ruin both the seal & the transmission case.

 

I usually drill the case if the transmission is already out of the motorcycle for some other reason but for most I just cut a drain slot in the bottom of the slave cylinder gasket to allow any leaked fluid to drain out through that gasket slot. (the BMW 1200 bikes don't even use a gasket between the slave & transmission case)     

 

 

 

 

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Skywagon

I didn’t go back and read the whole thread again so this has probably been mentioned already. The best thing you can do for your hand is install grip puppies and a good pair of leather gloves with gel

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Kilohertz
2 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

I didn’t go back and read the whole thread again so this has probably been mentioned already. The best thing you can do for your hand is install grip puppies and a good pair of leather gloves with gel

 

Thanks David,

 

The grip puppies had been mention but not the gel gloves...I'll have a look for those as well.

 

cheers

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