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I thought ABS was gonna make us safer.


Whip

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Hosstage

I think part of the problem is that when abs kicks in when not expected, stopping distances increase. One example, one of the lights near my house has a very rippled road surface due to trucks and cars braking for the light. Often when I brake on the bike the abs kicks in, and it almost feels like the bike is coasting rather than trying to stop as it tries to sync both tires and the out of sequence traction. My other bike with no abs will keep the brakes on, causing some chirping of the tires as it bounces slightly on and off of the pavement, but stops much quicker and predictively.

Having said that, it is mostly a better option than not, but it is not a perfect system on motorcycles.

Plus, when it does kick in as it should, many are not ready for that sensation and maybe panic pump the brakes.

It is interesting that pro riders (and good amateur riders) can stop faster with no abs, but it does take practice.

That's my take anyway.

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9Mary7

Guy sounds like an Idiot...... He mentions the primary problem, then discounts it and moves on to the same tired "Motorcycles are so much more dangerous than cars" mantra.

Primary reason for injury or fatal M/C crashes is  " another vehicle violating the motorcycle’s right-of-way, with intersections being the most likely location."

Further research shows that distracted driving is the becoming the primary reason for these "SMIDSY" crashes.

Car drivers have never had as much distracting electronic BS in their cars as they do today.

As riders we see this all the time. The problem has been increasing over the last ten years. I see this behavior by car drivers every day that I ride........ which is every day I can since I retired from citing these morons. :4317:

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Hosstage

I confess I did not read the article before responding, I was reacting to Whips reaction and questions.

I have to agree with 9mary7, the article was obviously written by a non rider, and is an idiot. Most crashes and fatalities, as 9mary7 pointed out, are caused by other idiots hitting motorcycles.

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Joe Frickin' Friday

It's a crap article.  He mentions that "several studies" help answer the questions about why motorcycle fatalities per 100M miles have increased in the past few years, and then rattles off a few stats.  His "several studies" comment is actually a link to this site:

 

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/little-known-facts-about-motorcycle-accidents-31124

 

That site also says "A number of studies and surveys have discovered some interesting facts and statistics about motorcycle accidents", and then rattles off a much longer list of stats.  It turns out all of those stats are a verbatim copy-and-paste of the findings the Hurt Report.  This is a report that was published in 1981 - which means it has absolutely nothing to offer in terms of explaining why motorcycle fatality rates have increased in the past few years.  

 

Regarding whether technological improvements have a negative effect, it's possible.  Risk compensation behavior may in some circumstances result in a rider, consciously aware of the tech on his bike, choosing to operate in a way that completely negates the safety benefits of that tech.  As to whether this is an actual factor in the recent increase in the 100M-mile fatality rate, we don't know, at least not from that article.  My guess is it's not a major factor in the stats, since the kind of tech that's becoming standard on BMW bikes - ABS, traction control, wheelie control - is absent on most of the bikes currently on the road.

 

The author also refers to recall rates for motorcycles versus cars, but there's no mention of whether the defects that prompted the recalls actually resulted in a meaningful number of fatalities.  My guess here is also no.  Example, I'm not aware of any BMW riders who were killed in crashes related to the hexhead fuel pump controller failure, hexhead fuel pump leak, hexhead rear-wheel spider cracks, or wethead rear shock failure.  Even if you can point to one or two deaths related to recall issues, we're talking about 5,000 motorcycling deaths per year in the US, so something like this is unlikely to be driving the increase in the per 100M mile fatality rate.

 

TL,DR: the article asks a bunch of questions and then totally doesn't answer them.  

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lawnchairboy
On 6/8/2021 at 4:23 PM, Hosstage said:

I think part of the problem is that when abs kicks in when not expected, stopping distances increase. One example, one of the lights near my house has a very rippled road surface due to trucks and cars braking for the light. Often when I brake on the bike the abs kicks in, and it almost feels like the bike is coasting rather than trying to stop as it tries to sync both tires and the out of sequence traction. My other bike with no abs will keep the brakes on, causing some chirping of the tires as it bounces slightly on and off of the pavement, but stops much quicker and predictively.

Having said that, it is mostly a better option than not, but it is not a perfect system on motorcycles.

Plus, when it does kick in as it should, many are not ready for that sensation and maybe panic pump the brakes.

It is interesting that pro riders (and good amateur riders) can stop faster with no abs, but it does take practice.

That's my take anyway.


 

I have had two cars with ABS that have exhibited the “coasting” type behavior you mention, a 2003 Honda Civic hybrid and a 2011 Camry hybrid.   Both cars, if hitting a pothole or on a rough patch of road when braking, seemed to not want to stop. Other cars and my F-150 with an earlier ABS system have not done this.   It is strange and not reassuring when braking.   I have never noticed that on the GS or my RT.  

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Twisties

1.  Nothing in the article suggests that ABS is less safe.  In fact the author states that NTSB has urged adoption of ABS as a requirement.

2.  I am surprised to see the motorcycle VMT stat back in use.  IIRC it had been withdrawn for a period after complaints by the AMA.  IIRC a number of states were reporting deaths, but no miles.  Other states had obviously flawed (low) miles estimates.  I remain skeptical of the motorcycle VMT numbers, particularly as the report uses numbers from the period I had thought were withdrawn.  Maybe @Deadboy could update us on that.  

3.  I agree with what Joe Frickin' Friday said, above.

4.  A lot of motorcycle risk relates to when and where and how you ride, how good a rider you are, etc.   I think it's mostly individual.

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szurszewski
On 6/8/2021 at 1:28 PM, 9Mary7 said:

Primary reason for injury or fatal M/C crashes is  " another vehicle violating the motorcycle’s right-of-way, with intersections being the most likely location."


this is interesting to me because in Washington and Oregon the cited statistics in the state traffic safety curricula  point to single vehicle crashes as the majority of fatalities. I’ll have to do some more reading. 

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11 hours ago, lawnchairboy said:

never noticed that on the GS or my RT.  

On the 1150 RT-P I was issued, the ABS release (or "leap" as we called it) occurred under heavy braking on an uneven surface. Think fwy off ramp in the braking area where heavy trucks ripple the asphalt at the bottom of the ramp. As the bike encountered the ripples, the brakes would release and the bike would leap forward into the intersection causing major pucker factor until the rider realized what was occurring. We all planned for this when braking heavily, but still were surprised on occasion. :4315:

On the 1200RT-P it very rarely occurred, usually only if braking hard enough to lift the rear wheel, and this was usually only while training. The ripples didn't seem to fake out that generation of ABS.

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Twisties
12 hours ago, szurszewski said:


this is interesting to me because in Washington and Oregon the cited statistics in the state traffic safety curricula  point to single vehicle crashes as the majority of fatalities. I’ll have to do some more reading. 

As Joe Frickin' Friday pointed out, the author used data from outdated Hurt Report.  I believe that stat comes from there.  

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Posted (edited)

From wiki.

 

Let’s try this again. 
 

Forget the article I was only using it to get the conversation started. 

 

With all the technical advances in motorcycles why are accidents and deaths  up?

 

As riders are we depending more on our bikes safety features and not practicing our skills enough?

 

Are we playing with all our new buttons and not paying attention to the road?

 

Are drivers more distracted with texting and talking on the phone?

 

Are bikes faster and  therefore more dangerous?

 

Have the demographics of riders become a more risk taking and dangerous group?

 

What is going on?

 

 

Edited by Whip
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ully211

I feel the "Are more drivers distracted with texting and talking on the phone?" issue is contributes a lot!  I get so frickin mad riding next to folks staring at their phone at 65 mph ... I usually look at them and shake my head I get so ticked off.

 

And I do think younger riders in particular are taking more risks in the way they ride.

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Hosstage

Are there more accidents and injuries per miles ridden as a percentage? 

If there are more incidents, but there are more motorcycles being ridden more miles, are the numbers really up?

I haven't seen any data on those points, or I missed them.

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fourteenfour

Considering the push to allow people to ride without helmets and the success in that effort will only increase the number of deaths.

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Hosstage
2 minutes ago, fourteenfour said:

Considering the push to allow people to ride without helmets and the success in that effort will only increase the number of deaths.

Has the increase been attributed to this?

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45 minutes ago, Whip said:

 

With all the technical advances in motorcycles why accidents and death  up?

 

As riders are we depending more on our bikes safety features and not practicing our skills enough?

 

Are we playing with all our new buttons and not paying attention to the road?

 

Are drivers more distracted with texting and talking on the phone?

 

Are bikes faster and  therefore more dangerous?

 

Have the demographics of riders become a more risk taking and dangerous group?

 

What is going on?

 

 


All the above I think. :thumbsup: Will add that we or most of us mid fifties guys that grew up around motorcycles, no PlayStation, no internet chat rooms and of course, no cell. You (if you were lucky) learned how to ride motorcycles period. 
 

Not saying bad things still don’t happen but taking those skills into adulthood has helped many of us survive the crazy crap happening on our roads today.

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TSConver
33 minutes ago, fourteenfour said:

Considering the push to allow people to ride without helmets and the success in that effort will only increase the number of deaths.

 

With freedom comes choices.  With choices comes consequences. 

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dirtrider
2 hours ago, Whip said:

From wiki.

 

Let’s try this again. 
 

Forget the article I was only using it to get the conversation started. 

 

With all the technical advances in motorcycles why are accidents and deaths  up?

 

As riders are we depending more on our bikes safety features and not practicing our skills enough?

 

Are we playing with all our new buttons and not paying attention to the road?

 

Are drivers more distracted with texting and talking on the phone?

 

Are bikes faster and  therefore more dangerous?

 

Have the demographics of riders become a more risk taking and dangerous group?

 

What is going on?

 

 

Morning Whip

 

Without more defined & refined data it is anybody's guess, in my area & even in my riding groups motorcycle accidents seem to be higher (kind of declined during the height of the Covid  lack of travel & lack of gatherings) but since things have gone back to somewhat normal they are definitely up in my riding area.

 

BUT, auto accidents are also up  significantly in my area the last few years so with motorcycles mixing with those crashing cars & trucks it stands to reason that motorcycle accidents are also up.

 

In my area the evening news seems to put the helmet wearing thing as top billing so they always make it sound like the reason for the accident or death was helmet related. 

 

The ones that I sort of pay attention to are single bike accidents or single motorcycle accident deaths, maybe I am just paying more attention lately but in my area those seem to be WAY up the last few years (even during the Covid  year).

 

Lot of young squids in my area on high horsepower sport bikes, I can hear them all day & most of the night hitting the rev limiter in the first 5 gears & close in 6th so they are definitely in the 150mph+ range. A great number of those riders don't even have a motorcycle endorsement as  their basic game plan is to just run from the police.

 

There was an article in the local paper  a few years back that stated the almost 50% of riders in my state don't have a motorcycle endorsement.    (I have no idea on where they got their data). But possibly number of riders vs registered motorcycles  & that is not precise as riders like me have number of registered motorcycles but only 1 shared rider.

 

Lot of single bike missed curve, too fast for curve, not enough skill (lock up brakes straight off the road type accidents in my area (lack or training, lack of skill, lack of common sense, fixation, etc) call it what you want. 

 

Speeds seem to be way up around my entire area as freeway runs at 80-85 mph or so & even back roads are in the 70's (not much enforcement as usually too many other things take priority I guess).  

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Lowndes

Whip,

 

Where do you get your info that MC deaths are up??  The article in the opening post refers to that but every time I open the article Forbes says "Wait while we download your info.....".   Screw that.

 

Is there another credible source that states this and their sources??

 

Remember, this guy wrote the article to sell magazines, NOT to provide accurate data to the public, but to get your attention to get you to buy the mag.  

 

What it the time frame, the last 1, 5, 10 year period??  World wide or just in the USA??  Is it based on fatalities per MC mile traveled or just absolute numbers??

 

Mark Twain said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

 

Sorry, I'm just suspecious/skepticle of "the media's" motives these days.  

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Lowndes
34 minutes ago, TSConver said:

Here is a table of miles per year.  In 2007 the miles for motorcycle nearly doubled and has remained high since.  About Dane time the deaths doubled. 

 

https://www.bts.gov/content/us-vehicle-miles

 

34 minutes ago, TSConver said:

Here is a table of miles per year.  In 2007 the miles for motorcycle nearly doubled and has remained high since.  About Dane time the deaths doubled. 

 

https://www.bts.gov/content/us-vehicle-miles

 

 

Dang time you corrected that, TS!!  (Well, when I quoted you two versions a minute apart popped up, the second version edited, but now they are the same and same time.)

 

From 12K to 21K looks like an error or a different method of collecting data.  Dunno.  But as I recall, there are a lot more bikes out there in the last 8-9 years.

 

I think a MC fatality per MC mile per year would be a better overall measure.

 

 

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Skywagon

Compare the MC rate to general aviation.  I know many folks who think general aviation is the most dangerous thing you can do.  I don't know if that is true but I can say it is fairly unforgiving.  See rates below

 

The NTSB calculated the fatal accident rate in general aviation for 2018 as 1.029 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, compared with a rate of 0.935 in 2017.

 

ESTIMATED ACTIVE AIRMEN CERTIFICATES HELD
as of DECEMBER 31
                     
CATEGORY 2020 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011
Pilot--Total 691,691 664,565 633,317 609,306 584,362 590,039 593,499 599,086 610,576 617,128
Student  1/ 222,629 197,665 167,804 149,121 128,501 122,729 120,546 120,285 119,946 118,657
Recreational (only) 105 127 144 153 175 190 220 238 218 227
Sport (only) 6,643 6,467 6,246 6,097 5,889 5,482 5,157 4,824 4,493 4,066
Airplane  2/                    
Private 160,860 161,105 163,695 162,455 162,313 170,718 174,883 180,214 188,001 194,441
Commercial 103,879 100,863 99,880 98,161 96,081 101,164 104,322 108,206 116,400 120,865
Airline Transport 164,193 164,947 162,145 159,825 157,894 154,730 152,933 149,824 145,590 142,511
Rotorcraft (only)  3/ 13,629 14,248 15,033 15,355 15,518 15,566 15,511 15,114 15,126 15,220
Glider (only ) 4,5/ 19,753 19,143 18,370 18,139 17,991 19,460 19,927 20,381 20,802 21,141
Pilot Total w/o Student Category  1/ 469,062 466,900 465,513 460,185 455,861 467,310 472,953 478,801 490,630 498,471
Flight Instructor Certificates 6/  117,558 113,445 108,564 106,692 104,382 102,628 100,993 98,842 98,328 97,409
Instrument Ratings 6,7/ 316,651 314,168 311,017 306,652 302,572 304,329 306,066 307,120 311,952 314,122
Remote Pilots  9/ 206,322 160,302 106,321 69,166 20,362 N/Ap N/Ap N/Ap N/Ap N/Ap
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5 hours ago, Whip said:

As riders are we depending more on our bikes safety features and not practicing our skills enough?

Yes. I think this is the primary reason. The more doodads that the manufacturers put on the bikes, the more dependent the rider becomes on them and the more oblivious to the perils around them.

 

Just look at basic navigation. Once upon a time, we used to carry a paper map and scribble directions on a piece of paper after a great deal of planning. This made us aware of mile markers, waypoints, heading, attractions along the way, etc. Then we got the same directions printed out via mapping websites and lost some of the planning aspects and/or attractions. Now we just follow the stupid blue line and can't tell a cardinal direction if it hits us in the face. So yeah, we are not getting smarter. On the contrary, we are getting more stupid.

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fourteenfour
On 6/16/2021 at 8:25 AM, TSConver said:

 

With freedom comes choices.  With choices comes consequences. 

 

Every time the helmet's right people come out I simply hear Percy Wetmore from The Green Mile introducing them

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duckbubbles
20 hours ago, AviP said:

Yes. I think this is the primary reason. The more doodads that the manufacturers put on the bikes, the more dependent the rider becomes on them and the more oblivious to the perils around them.

 

Just look at basic navigation. Once upon a time, we used to carry a paper map and scribble directions on a piece of paper after a great deal of planning. This made us aware of mile markers, waypoints, heading, attractions along the way, etc. Then we got the same directions printed out via mapping websites and lost some of the planning aspects and/or attractions. Now we just follow the stupid blue line and can't tell a cardinal direction if it hits us in the face. So yeah, we are not getting smarter. On the contrary, we are getting more stupid.

Just happened to me a week ago.  Followed the blue line through the center of town instead of using the loop that, if I had been paying attention, I would have taken, since I had been there before.

 

Frank

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Rougarou
On 6/16/2021 at 6:57 AM, Whip said:

From wiki.

 

Let’s try this again. 
 

 

As riders are we depending more on our bikes safety features and not practicing our skills enough?

 

I think yes.  As an example, a couple of years ago, I rode the Shadow into work.  On my commute home, it was raining and I was coming to a stop light.  As I neared the stoplight, I began braking, front lever only as habit with the two other bikes I ride.  Heat dried off front rotor, front wheel locks up, I begin sliding, left leg instinctively goes out, left leg curls behind me, I see stars, recover the bike from the slide, and limp for several days.  

 

Point being, my "instincts" were to rely on the safety of the ABS and the linked brakes of my other rides,.....totally on me for not making myself "further" aware on the particular bike I was riding at the time (no ABS, no linked brakes)

 

 

 

On 6/16/2021 at 6:57 AM, Whip said:

 

Are drivers more distracted with texting and talking on the phone?
 

 

giphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1

 

On 6/16/2021 at 6:57 AM, Whip said:

 

Are bikes faster and  therefore more dangerous?

 

Faster yes, more dangerous, nah.  What's the old saying, "55, slow enough to make you think you're safe, fast enough to kill"

 

 

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Deadboy

I just noticed I was tagged in this... I have to admit just reading the comments I have no interest in checking out the article but it is a sad fact that motorcyclists are involved in lots of single vehicle accidents, something like 40%. Couple that with multi-vehicle accidents where the rider is at fault and I would not go pointing a lot of fingers at other drivers. 

 

Likewise the VMT numbers have never been something that you want to rely on because the methodology and collection methods are not standardized across the 50 states.

 

I just participated in a transportation forum and if you want to read about current thinking and trends this is probably the best place to start but honestly it's a moving target. Some people think we need more training, some people think we need higher thresholds for licensing, some people think we need lower speeds, others blame infrastructure and other drivers... The reality is there's probably a lot of different scenarios and ABS has clearly helped in most circumstances. 

 

As we see autonomous vehicles and semi-autonomous vehicles becoming more and more mainstream I think there's a lot of opportunities for safety to improve but only if motorcycles and other "vulnerable" road users are carefully considered and included in the development of the systems. 

 

https://www.itf-oecd.org/motorcyclists-safety-workshop-riding-safe-system

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Joe Frickin' Friday
On 6/23/2021 at 1:40 AM, Deadboy said:

Some people think we need more training, some people think we need higher thresholds for licensing,

 

Maybe a little bit of both?  I often come across riders who seem to be barely in control of their machine, or make dangerous riding choices for no discernible benefit (e.g. tailgating a car).  

 

Even if licensing thresholds didn't increase, it might help save lives if existing licensing requirements were more strictly enforced:

Quote

In the Fall of 2012, after analysis of motorcycle rider crash data, the Michigan Office of Highway Safety Planning (OHSP) determined that the “unendorsed” operator was far over-represented in motorcycle crashes. Unendorsed operators made up over half of all crashes and fatalities that involved a motorcycle. Further analysis of all registered motorcycles (nearly 250,000) with the Michigan Department of State (MDOS) revealed that approximately 20 percent (nearly 50,000) were being operated by an unendorsed motorcyclist. 

 

 

 

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Deadboy

Oddly enough there is simply no proof training works.....I have sat at a number of conferences and heard training professionals attempt to explain this but alas. Some even go as far as to claim that a trained rider (we are talking about a basic skills course vs no training) is actually left with a false sense of confidence and therefore more likely to crash. 

 

As for the lack of a license, I agree that seems pretty obvious ....unlicensed and impaired are a significant issue nationwide.

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Maybe a little bit of both?  I often come across riders who seem to be barely in control of their machine, or make dangerous riding choices for no discernible benefit (e.g. tailgating a car).  

 

 

Morning Mitch 

 

This is an occasionally seen trait on some of my  "Experienced  Rider" off-road rides. Riders either trying to prove something or  riders unaware of their limited (or non-existent)  riding abilities. 

 

This is often a difficult to handle situation as everyone in the riding group sees the lack of control & lack of adequate riding skills but no one wants to be the one to confront that rider about them trying to ride above their skill level.  

 

I hear basically the same info from other riders riding in the on-road experienced groups, this or that rider being a danger to themselves due to lack of riding skills and/or their lack of recognizing they are a poor rider & trying to improve.  Again, no one wants to be the one that confronts.

 

It's those very same poor riders that won't attend advanced rider skill courses, or won't work on their skills to improve, or even recognize that they are in fact poor riders. 

 

I sure don't have the answer to improve this as it should really start right at a young age with proper first instruction & initial training. 

 

I think some European countries have it somewhat right with limiting motorcycle size or horsepower for new entry riders.  (graduated engine size or power as the rider progresses).

 

We could probably due more in this country if anybody really gave a damn by doing the same with graduated motorcycle power or size.  

 

Or, things like motorcycle confiscation (with court appearance & large fine to get a return)  if  rider is caught riding without proper training or licensing. Insurance companies getting mandated to verify a proper motorcycle endorsement  before issuing insurance. The BIG issue here is in getting caught as most LEO's won't even chase a motorcycle & the unlicensed motorcycle riders know that so they just run with no incentive to actually get a M/C endorsement or insurance, or in a lot of cases even a license plate.  

 

Even simple things like changing the original motorcycle safety classes used to get the  endorsement to mandate the rider use a proper sized motorcycle for testing & rider skills evaluation/passing.   (if you test & pass on a 250cc motorcycle or scooter then that is all you can ride until you test & pass on the motorcycle size that you intend to ride).  Basically eliminate passing the M/C license testing on a 250cc motorcycle then riding a 150 mph+ liter bike on that license.  

 

Even things that don't seem to matter could be changed, like myself, I started  riding  before motorcycle licenses were required. When the M/C endorsement requirement went into effect all I had to do was tell the Secretary of State that I rode a motorcycle & they put a M/C endorsement on my drivers license (no testing or evaluation required). 

 

Same with my motorcycle insurance,  I took an advance LEO course a few years ago so I called my motorcycle insurance & asked if that advanced course could or would lower my insurance rates.   The answer was NO, I asked why & they told me that I was already getting the lowest rate due to my older age. I then asked what age has to do with riding ability or riding qualifications & the rep said that is just the way they do it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Can motorcycles actually be made safer? Basically, we’re hurtling our protoplasm through space astride machines that achieve velocities high enough that the consequences of crashing are generally serious. Cars have gotten “safer” because our protoplasm is cocooned inside machines that now have restraint devices, crush spaces that ease rapid deceleration, and airbags that cushion us from whacking into hard surfaces. ABS, traction control, and protective gear may chip away at some of the risks of motorcycling, but the laws of physics combined with the frailty of the human body preclude anything other than incremental improvements in safety.

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Rougarou

In the early 90's when I bought my first street bike, I didn't have an endorsement.  This after not having been on a bike in probably 15 years.  I also wasn't allowed to ride my bike on base, 'cause, I didn't want to waste a weekend going through the basic safety course, so, I rode off base.  No biggie.  Ended up selling that bike due to too many deployments and not enough riding time.

 

In 2010, when I got back into riding, I went with no endorsement for over two years.  My wife wanted to get a bike since she didn't like looking at the back of my helmet and wanted to go through the course,.....I tagged along as "moron support".  After that, I got the endorsement. 

 

Point being, endorsement does not prove you can ride.

 

Training, more training, may or may not help,.......how many advanced trained LEOs/military members have had a negligent discharge, a'plenty.

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Get the most competent training you can, as often as possible in your life situation, and practice your defensive riding techniques. 

At the beginning of the riding season, I usually spend the first half hour of any ride in a vacant parking lot working out the winter "rust" before enjoying the ride.

Low speed maneuvers, emergency braking and those ever popular U turns. Do this a few times and you will feel how rusty you are, followed by your confidence and awareness building back. (Especially beneficial if you have different style bikes to ride). Tons of info and defensive techniques available to us via the Google box..... a little effort goes a long way.

Now I gotta go ride!!:yes:

 

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Hosstage

I've ridden for years. I finally took an advanced riding course just because I figured it couldn't hurt, and because it was mostly a group of friends and my brother in the course.

It helped my skill level tremendously. I knew I could do all the exercises, but never just practiced them or thought about them while riding. I learned a few techniques I hadn't thought to do. I also found I was able to help a few less skilled riders in the course with some simple advice and observations that don't always get shared.

I find myself riding now and often thinking of the skills I used in class to deal with situations much better.

Training works. Practicing specific skills outside of a real world situation works, it becomes natural when needed in the real world situation.

10% reduction in insurance premium due to the class.

And, I had fun! 

I'm due for another refresher class, it's been a few years (15?). Time flies.

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  • 1 month later...

He's a bit uninformed.  My current RT and the previous one both had traction control ... just like my cars.  In both cases I had it retrofitted but the bikes could have been factory fitted with it.  ASC

 

Things like "rain mode" on Wetheads are similar but even newer safety enhancements.

 

BMW has had ABS for decades.

 

In terms of "motorcycle deaths" it is true that California fired MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) due to the increase.  That makes sense, as hardly anyone is killed in a parking lot.

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2 hours ago, lkchris said:

In terms of "motorcycle deaths" it is true that California fired MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) due to the increase.  That makes sense, as hardly anyone is killed in a parking lot.

 

Actually MSF didn't submit a bid to continue administering the program when their contract expired (it ran through the end of 2014). I am on the advisory committee and to say they were fired is simply incorrect. There was some debate about curriculum (who owns it/how to make changes etc.) but that is a discussion for another time. As for fatalities the FARS data seems pretty consistent, and sadly fatalities have continued to rise annually in California. The #s are as follows: 440 in 2014, 468 in 2015, 500 in 2016, 527 in 2017, 523 in 2018 but they did decrease in 2019 to 474 (I haven't seen any estimates for 2020 yet, it takes a while).  I truly hope the downward trend continues but it is too soon to say. 

 

https://motorcyclefatalities.org/data/occupant/mfa/Motorcyclist.Fatalities.Annual.CALIFORNIA.pdf 

 

 

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Hosstage

While the numbers rose, did the percentage of riders vs fatalities also rise? That is more indicative of an increase than raw numbers.

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Most interesting thread.  I know in Oregon especially here on the central coast what with the place absolutely overrun with tourists.  Traffic accidents of all kinds are rampant which is the only way to describe the situation.  Also, there is a complete lack of traffic law enforcement.  The Oregon State Police have had their numbers drastically reduced in recent years and there was even an attempt by a recent governor to eliminate the OSP altogether and the only reason it wasn't is because the state crime lab would be adversely impacted.  The local police don't make traffic stops at all because it's too dangerous as so many idiots are armed and the local PD budget can't accommodate hiring enough police to put two officers in each vehicle.  Also, the road system here was never designed to accommodate the shear numbers of vehicles we see today.  And then we have the attitudes of the me..me..me generation and what do you get?  Answer:  Shear bedlam and I don't exaggerate!  Personally, I'm seriously considering curtailing my MC riding career because it's just becoming way way too dangerous and not worth dying for.  This whole thing just pisses me the H off!

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Jeff in VA

Forbes loves clickbait and this piece is a good example. The more you know about a subject, the more likely you are to roll your eyes when you read a Forbes article on that subject.

 

I do think that ABS has improved a lot. My first BMW more than 20 years ago had a tendency to engage ABS too easily on washboard pavement. My GS has never exhibited that behavior. While I’m sure that ABS has caused some accidents in limited situations, it has probably allowed riders to avoid a lot more. Re the comments about licensing and rider training, I agree that most training is not great, but my experience in an MSF course many years ago provided a great example of what can happen with untrained and unlicensed riders. There was a couple in the class that had just bought Harleys. The wife could not ride. Literally could not ride a motorcycle. She dropped that little bike they used in the course over and over. She couldn’t turn, couldn’t stop, couldn’t steer. She failed the class and told me she didn’t give a damn what they said, she and her husband were going to ride their new Harleys. Another guy in the class had just bought a sport bike. He had no idea how to ride, particularly how to turn. He just could not get the bike to go where he wanted it. He didn’t get a chance to fail. After dropping the bike over and over, he kicked the bike when it was down (literally) and ran off cursing about how unfair the instructors were and how their cheap bikes were the problem. Not too long after the course, I saw an article in the Washington Post about a serious motorcycle accident involving a woman who was a new rider. Guess who?  

 

I am also convinced that some of the increase in fatalities is due to the elimination of helmet laws in so many states. When Florida relaxed their helmet law they had a 20% increase in fatalities over the next 2 years. Combine the lack of helmets, lack of training, lack of common sense among some riders, and the fact that far too many people are driving around with phones in their hands and generally not paying attention to what they are doing, and its a miracle fatalities are not even higher than they are now. 

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You don’t know what you don’t know.  By getting professional training you may learn something you didn’t know that might just come in handy.  You have nothing to lose (little time/money) by taking a course but you may have everything to gain.  Up to you.  That’s all I have to say about that…

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So I almost slammed into my 3rd deer last Monday (8/10) on a 120 mile round-trip to the doctor.

 

On the ride home, I turned off onto one of my favorite roads for 15 miles of twisties near Michigan's Irish Hills. About a mile later a doe came out of nowhere at full speed.

 

Out of my peripheral vision, I saw her and braked.....hard. The ABS kicked in, slowing me instantly and in control for just enough time to let her go in front of me.

 

Count me on the side that appreciates ABS and the linked, servo controlled system on my '04 RT. Numerous track days, experience and fine BMW engineering saved my tail, I'm certain.

 

 

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Hosstage

We'd save quite a few more riders every year if we had year round hunting seasons on those things, offer a bounty for each one, and treat them like the rodents that they are.

Glad you came out ok. I'm sure your experience had as much or more to do with that as the abs brakes did. I go back and forth on abs brakes, sometimes I like them, sometimes they scare the hell out of me.

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levrier noir

Here in the UK bike accidents and fatalities have reduced dramatically in the last few years. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

IIHS study comes out tomorrow. I have seen the embargoed press release and study. Bottom line is you want ABS.....

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