Chips in oil R1200GS

[The Fabricator]

2015 R1200GS 42k miles

Fourth gear failed.  Had to ride home 200 mi.

Lots  of chips in the oil filter.

 I can fix the transmission.

I know I can not get all of the chips out the engine by multiple oil changes.

Only a complete teardown and cleaning  will get them all.

 

What is your experience?

Has anyone knowingly run the engine with chips in it?  

How long did it last?

 

I know the first thing to wear out will be the oil pump, causing low oil pressure.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, The Fabricator said:

2015 R1200GS 42k miles

Fourth gear failed.  Had to ride home 200 mi.

Lots  of chips in the oil filter.

 I can fix the transmission.

I know I can not get all of the chips out the engine by multiple oil changes.

Only a complete teardown and cleaning  will get them all.

 

What is your experience?

Has anyone knowingly run the engine with chips in it?  

How long did it last?

 

I know the first thing to wear out will be the oil pump, causing low oil pressure.

Afternoon  Fabricator

 

You are correct in that oil/filter changes alone won't get all that metallic crap out of your engine. That metallic residue settles in small engine or transmission pockets, crevices, & in low oil flow areas.

 

A full engine tear down is the best but that is a lot of work (but the only way the be sure it is clean inside).

 

If you decide to not do a full tear down then at least get some magnets in the oiling areas, such as engine drain & fill plugs, on bottom of oil filter (hopefully to catch what tries to get though the filter by-pass valve), maybe in the valve covers, any other places that see internal oil that you can place a magnet that won't interfere or come loose.

 

Then check the magnets regularly-- If you quit seeing caught metallic particles then you might be OK. 

 

 

[Hosstage]

Or trade it in...

[The Fabricator]

20 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Or trade it in...

I like to keep my karma clean.

[Hosstage]

7 hours ago, The Fabricator said:

I like to keep my karma clean.

A good rule to live by.

[LAF]

I am not sure what to say.  Yes you may never get all the chips out of the motor but do you have to?  What I am saying is as long as your filter is working you should keep the biggest out of your oil path.

 

Me I would over fill it with diesel fuel or ATF and run it a few seconds and drop it, do that a few times.  Then proceed with cheap oil changes. I mean if your going to fix the tranny then just run it until/if you experience a failure.

 

Flushing with gusto would be my first attempt after I dropped the tranny and had as many things open as possible. 

 

I have to say your karma comment is right on.  Doing that to a dealer or anyone in a private sale is just plain bad juju.

 

Again I am sure there are flushing techniques and fluids that will help you but mostly it is going to be your oil filter doing the heavy lifting.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, LAF said:

I am not sure what to say.  Yes you may never get all the chips out of the motor but do you have to?  What I am saying is as long as your filter is working you should keep the biggest out of your oil path.

 

Me I would over fill it with diesel fuel or ATF and run it a few seconds and drop it, do that a few times.  Then proceed with cheap oil changes. I mean if your going to fix the tranny then just run it until/if you experience a failure.

 

Flushing with gusto would be my first attempt after I dropped the tranny and had as many things open as possible. 

 

I have to say your karma comment is right on.  Doing that to a dealer or anyone in a private sale is just plain bad juju.

 

Again I am sure there are flushing techniques and fluids that will help you but mostly it is going to be your oil filter doing the heavy lifting.

Morning  LAF

 

One of the big issues with relying on the oil filter is the BMW engines flow a lot of oil so  some of the oil does by-pass the oil filter at times (especially on a cold oil start up & cold engine ride away). In fact a lot of oil flows through the filter by-pass at cold-oil higher RPM's. 

 

The other thing about relying on the oil  filter is that it filters post-oil pump not pre-oil pump so that sharp crud still goes through the oil pump & tears up or scores  the pump's rotor parts. 

 

I have worked on a number of engines over the years  that for one reason or another had metal debris inside the engine that went through the oil pump (or pumps)  & in most cases the pump(s) were well scored up & junk by the time I opened the engines up. 

 

If he can keep it from running in oil-bypass at cold start-up & at higher RPM's that might keep most of the crud out of the bearing areas but that is not an easy thing to do.  

[LAF]

6 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  LAF

 

One of the big issues with relying on the oil filter is the BMW engines flow a lot of oil so  some of the oil does by-pass the oil filter at times (especially on a cold oil start up & cold engine ride away). In fact a lot of oil flows through the filter by-pass at cold-oil higher RPM's. 

 

The other thing about relying on the oil  filter is that it filters post-oil pump not pre-oil pump so that sharp crud still goes through the oil pump & tears up or scores  the pump's rotor parts. 

 

I have worked on a number of engines over the years  that for one reason or another had metal debris inside the engine that went through the oil pump (or pumps)  & in most cases the pump(s) were well scored up & junk by the time I opened the engines up. 

 

If he can keep it from running in oil-bypass at cold start-up & at higher RPM's that might keep most of the crud out of the bearing areas but that is not an easy thing to do.  

Thank you for that and I understand the bypass valve.

 

That is why I would use a fluid such as diesel or ATF to fill the motor and run it out a few times. 

 

I would not want to scrap a bike but I also would not trust a bike to take me anywhere with all that metal in it.  A flush of some type is the only way I see to get it out.  And yes I know it is never all coming out. 

 

I feel bad for the OP and hope somehow he can salvage it.  Otherwise I guess he can rebuild the motor and have a bike that is newer then it's 2015 manufacturer date. 

 

I think this is the first LC bike I have heard of with a blown gear/tranny? 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, LAF said:

Thank you for that and I understand the bypass valve.

 

That is why I would use a fluid such as diesel or ATF to fill the motor and run it out a few times. 

 

I would not want to scrap a bike but I also would not trust a bike to take me anywhere with all that metal in it.  A flush of some type is the only way I see to get it out.  And yes I know it is never all coming out. 

 

I feel bad for the OP and hope somehow he can salvage it.  Otherwise I guess he can rebuild the motor and have a bike that is newer then it's 2015 manufacturer date. 

 

I think this is the first LC bike I have heard of with a blown gear/tranny? 

Evening LAF

 

One good thing (if there is such a thing on a deal like this)-- is,  to remove the transmission he will have to remove the clutch & clutch basket so the oil pump is right there & easy to get to.

 

Seeing as he has already ridden it 200 miles with all that junk in there then  inspecting the oil pump internals  will give him an idea how much junk went through the pump. 

 

Personally I would probably just go through the engine as the front end & transmission will already be removed so not a lot more to go to split the cases.   

 

Might even look at a decent used engine with good transmission as that would be the easy way & might not cost a lot more than parts to repair (at least in the U.S.). Not sure that is even an option where the OP lives in Au. 

[LAF]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening LAF

 

One good thing (if there is such a thing on a deal like this)-- is,  to remove the transmission he will have to remove the clutch & clutch basket so the oil pump is right there & easy to get to.

 

Seeing as he has already ridden it 200 miles with all that junk in there then  inspecting the oil pump internals  will give him an idea how much junk went through the pump. 

 

Personally I would probably just go through the engine as the front end & transmission will already be removed so not a lot more to go to split the cases.   

 

Might even look at a decent used engine with good transmission as that would be the easy way & might not cost a lot more than parts to repair (at least in the U.S.). Not sure that is even an option where the OP lives in Au. 

Have you ever heard of a LC bike throwing a transmission?  Like I said in all the forums I do not remember reading of a LC bike dropping a transmission?

 

 

[TEWKS]

Hey, at least it’s only chips. This guy for sure is going to find Fish & Chips in his motor!  Sorry about your plight.  
 

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, TEWKS said:

Hey, at least it’s only chips. This guy for sure is going to find Fish & Chips in his motor!  Sorry about your plight.  
 

 

Morning  TEWKS

 

Looks OK to me, looks like it is still running & the air inlet is still well above water level. The group that I ride with run our BMW GS bikes though a lot deeper water than that & the motorcycles live on to lead a long life.  

 

Looks like the rear wheel has dug a trench in the soft river bottom so he/she will probably need some assistance to get it free & moving again. 

[dirtrider]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:45 PM, LAF said:

Have you ever heard of a LC bike throwing a transmission?  Like I said in all the forums I do not remember reading of a LC bike dropping a transmission?

 

 

Morning LAF

 

I have heard of (2) LC GS's  failing a transmission (something broke inside, I don't know what)  but have no details on either as the failure on one was reported by a rider in an occasionally ridden-with off-road riding group about a LC BMW in another off-road riding group that HE sometimes rides with. 

 

The second one was in another state reported by the brother of a local rider to me  (again no details or way to confirm). 

 

I did see a newer  GS rider last fall trying to keep up with my advanced off-road group & he kept getting stuck in deep sand (repeatedly). We had to keep stopping then to go back & help him get his motorcycle unstuck and or picked back upright.

Towards the end of the first leg he got stuck again then got so tired & flustered that  he was revving the engine to about 6,000 or 7,000 RPM's  then just kicking it into gear without using the clutch. It didn't fail then but that surely didn't do the transmission a lot of good either.  

 

There were some BMW's back in the 1100 era that were  built with defective transmission shift drums, under certain conditions those could be shifted into two gears at the same time resulting in a quick trans failure & lots of metal.   The only good part was that due to the dry clutch & separate trans  the metal didn't migrate into the engine.

 

On the upside, there have been a lot of BMW LC (internal transmission) BMW motorcycles sold in my area & I have yet to receive any first hand info on transmission failures other than some that don't like the way they shift at light throttle upshifting. 

 

  

[Skywagon]

Hey DR.. I know you said no detail on the two failures you heard about, but makes me wonder if they were heavy users of the quick shift and or using it incorrectly. I rarely use mine and if I do it’s only on the way up not down

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

Hey DR.. I know you said no detail on the two failures you heard about, but makes me wonder if they were heavy users of the quick shift and or using it incorrectly. I rarely use mine and if I do it’s only on the way up not down

Afternoon David

 

Yes, I have no more info  than what I posted, I can't see the quick shift having a lot of effect on a total gear failure or other major parts failure.  I would think that anything quick-shift related would show up more as a long term wear issue on the shifting dogs with things like jumping out of gear or grinding on regular shifting.  

 

You just don't know on internal trans gear failures as it could be as simple as a bolt, nut, or other hard object was introduced to the engine/transmission during a oil change   (something in the funnel, or something fell into the funnel, or something in the oil container).

 

Or a part, or nut, or socket, or ??? went into the engine during a valve service or other service.  Or if a previously owned motorcycle, what the past owner, or owners, did to that motorcycle prior to selling it. 

 

Or might have been something else in the clutch system, or engine, that came loose & ended up between the gear teeth.  

 

Or might even be a defective gear due to  an unseen inclusion, or improper heat treat, or even being dropped during initial install or during manufacturing handling. 

 

I have seen a good number of manual transmission gear failures over the years in my day-job with most being traced back to some foreign object that got into the gear sets, or a snap ring (or something similar that came loose inside the trans). A few were due to abuse or mistreatment, & even mis-built or poorly heat-treated parts. The thing with bad original parts is we seldom found only one as they usually showed up in batches, or a run of related build dates.  

[The Fabricator]

On 5/21/2021 at 4:21 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning  LAF

 

One of the big issues with relying on the oil filter is the BMW engines flow a lot of oil so  some of the oil does by-pass the oil filter at times (especially on a cold oil start up & cold engine ride away). In fact a lot of oil flows through the filter by-pass at cold-oil higher RPM's. 

 

The other thing about relying on the oil  filter is that it filters post-oil pump not pre-oil pump so that sharp crud still goes through the oil pump & tears up or scores  the pump's rotor parts. 

 

I have worked on a number of engines over the years  that for one reason or another had metal debris inside the engine that went through the oil pump (or pumps)  & in most cases the pump(s) were well scored up & junk by the time I opened the engines up. 

 

If he can keep it from running in oil-bypass at cold start-up & at higher RPM's that might keep most of the crud out of the bearing areas but that is not an easy thing to do.  

I looked at the specs for an R1150GS [because I do not have a 1200 manual] oil filter.  The relief valve in the filter opens at 5.5bar.  The operating pressure is 3.5 to 6.0 bar.  I presume the same figures apply to the 1200.  So that means the oil is not filtered all the time.  This is what you say, in other words.

Also, you state you have encountered worn out oil  pumps, in other words.

What was the condition of these worn-pump  chipped contaminated engines?

I would suspect the first sign would be oil smoke out the exhaust due to chip-worn rings.

What was the condition of the rod bearings?

It seems like the life of such an engine would be around 10,000 miles from chip creation.

This is not my bike.  The owner does not seem like an abusing type guy.

From the dearth of posts about transmission failures for this model and small listing of used parts for this model, and your comments, I think this is a freak failure.

I have advised the owner that 'flushing oil changes' is wishful thinking.

He has called 2 shops that do have a policy of oil changes and do not report [or admit] to any problems.

My thinking is an owner with a such a bike that DOES develop problems will already be wary of their bike and abandon it some how at the first opportunity or first problem.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, The Fabricator said:

I looked at the specs for an R1150GS [because I do not have a 1200 manual] oil filter.  The relief valve in the filter opens at 5.5bar.  The operating pressure is 3.5 to 6.0 bar.  I presume the same figures apply to the 1200.  So that means the oil is not filtered all the time.  This is what you say, in other words.

Also, you state you have encountered worn out oil  pumps, in other words.

What was the condition of these worn-pump  chipped contaminated engines?

I would suspect the first sign would be oil smoke out the exhaust due to chip-worn rings.

What was the condition of the rod bearings?

It seems like the life of such an engine would be around 10,000 miles from chip creation.

This is not my bike.  The owner does not seem like an abusing type guy.

From the dearth of posts about transmission failures for this model and small listing of used parts for this model, and your comments, I think this is a freak failure.

I have advised the owner that 'flushing oil changes' is wishful thinking.

He has called 2 shops that do have a policy of oil changes and do not report [or admit] to any problems.

My thinking is an owner with a such a bike that DOES develop problems will already be wary of their bike and abandon it some how at the first opportunity or first problem.

Afternoon  Fabricator

 

I'm not sure where you got the oil filter by-pass valve opens at 5.5 bar but that seems WAY/WAY/WAY too high, typically the older  BMW 1200 oil filter by-pass opens at about 12 psi (.827 bar).  I think you might be confusing the pressure regulator valve  with the oil filter by-pass valve. I don't know what the oil filter by-pass spec is on the newer water cooled engines but they use a thinner oil than the older 1200 engines so it might even be slightly lower than 12 psi.    If he is using an automotive (will fit) type filter picked from a car or small truck reference sheet it could be even worse as a lot of those have a 3 or 4 psi by-pass valve setting so they pretty well run in some by-pass all the time on the BMW boxer engines  therefore flushing dirty oil from the crud stopping side of the filter through to the clean oil side.  (one of my little pet peeves in using will-fit automotive oil filters). 

 

You can't directly equate oil pressure to filter by-pass opening or flow pressure as the by-pass valve ONLY effects the delta across the filter media. (basically with all the oil being able to get through the filter media unrestricted then the by-pass valve should never open). The problem is-- at high RPM's  or with cold (thick) oil then some of the oil can't get through the filter media fast enough so that forces by-pass valve opening.  

 

Pump Damage___

 

On an oil pump that pumps unfiltered (hard particle) dirty intake oil-- I usually find pump rotor, or outer rotor, ring scoring, some scoring on the rotor or rotor ring lobes, some scoring on the ends of the rotor and/or outer rotor ring,  close-out plate scoring, etc. Sometimes the scoring doesn't effect the pump flow or output pressure & other times eventually it lowers both (especially with very hot thinned-out oil). 

 

As for miles that it will go?-- That depends on; amount of metallic particles in the oil, how much gets through the filter by-pass valve, how much ends up in the bearings or between the camshaft lobes & valve parts, how much gets removed before damage sets in.  

 

No way to know, the engine might go full life or might only go a 1000 miles. He won't know until it either lives full life or fails. 

 

It is bad enough that it is now a big worry, but is probably even more of a worry if he puts a LOT of work & money into repairing the transmission THEN the engine fails.   

 

If you are doing the repair then try to put a lot of magnets in the oil's path, remove the oil pump when you disassemble the clutch to remove the transmission,  then inspect the pump parts for scoring & wear  (this will tell you something about the engine's future).

 

 

[Skywagon]

11 hours ago, dirtrider said:

object was introduced to the engine/transmission during a oil change

 

Thanks DR....I'm glad to know the shift assist is reasonably ok to use.  I might use it a bit more now.  Many years ago I was flying an airplane with an FAA examiner and the engine sputtered.  We went back to the field and had the mechanic take a look.  No trouble found.  The next day the owner took it out for a short flight and the engine came apart and they had to put it in a field.  When they tore it down they found a few things...onr of them being a Bic Pen in the oil sump....hmmm Where did the pen top go.... I think there is still an NTSB record on it.  N3896F

[jack d]

"Have you ever heard of a LC bike throwing a transmission?  Like I said in all the forums I do not remember reading of a LC bike dropping a transmission? "

I have a 2017 GSA with a broken transmission output shaft setting here at my house. It seems that BMW does not sell that part. It's not mine and I have no desire to get a used trans, drop the engine, etc. to end up with a bike too tall for me to ride.

 

[dirtrider]

40 minutes ago, jack d said:

"Have you ever heard of a LC bike throwing a transmission?  Like I said in all the forums I do not remember reading of a LC bike dropping a transmission? "

I have a 2017 GSA with a broken transmission output shaft setting here at my house. It seems that BMW does not sell that part. It's not mine and I have no desire to get a used trans, drop the engine, etc. to end up with a bike too tall for me to ride.

 

Morning Jack

 

You need to further define "throwing a transmission", if you mean a transmission failure then, yes, there have been a few reported.  Nothing that I have (personally) heard/or/seen pointing to a common or specific weak component. 

 

The output shaft should be available from BMW but it is a little over $1000.00 dollars & might take a while to get.